Any hope for RPG's ?

[Continuity]

Or, it's actually really, REALLY similar and people like you just can't admit combat in a game doesn't need to glacial to be tactical. Better is subjective, making combat fancier and faster doesn't make it less pure.

Whatever you want to call it buddy, some of us just plain out and out prefer it turn based. I guess the years of table top D&D followed by years of great CRPGs have shaped our taste.

Each to their own.

Its not even just down to being turn based, baldur's gate wasn't turnbased as such anyway, its the detail of the mechanic and depth of the IP thats really important, not to mention the implementation of choice, dialogue, narrative etc.

Do I want a choice of 10 spells for my mage? No, I want a choice of this many spells:

Fair warning before you click, its a long list.

Spoiler

Arcane Spells

Arcane Spells Level 1
Armor
Blindness
Burning Hands
Charm Person
Chill Touch
Chromatic Orb
Color Spray
Find Familiar
Friends
Grease
Identify
Infravision
Larloch's Minor Drain
Magic Missile
Nahal's Reckless Dweomer
Protection from Evil
Protection from Petrification
Reflected Image
Shield
Shocking Grasp
Sleep
Spook
Arcane Spells Level 2
Agannazar's Scorcher
Blur
Chaos Shield
Deafness
Detect Invisibility
Ghoul Touch
Glitterdust
Horror
Invisibility
Knock
Know Alignment
Luck
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mirror Image
Power Word, Sleep
Ray of Enfeeblement
Resist Fear
Stinking Cloud
Strength
Vocalize
Web
Arcane Spells Level 3
Clairvoyance
Detect Illusion
Dire Charm
Dispel Magic
Fireball
Flame Arrow
Ghost Armor
Haste
Hold Person
Hold Undead
Invisibility 10' Radius
Lightning Bolt
Melf's Minute Meteors
Minor Spell Deflection
Monster Summoning I
Non-Detection
Protection from Cold
Protection from Fire
Protection from Normal Missiles
Remove Magic
Skull Trap
Slow
Spell Thrust
Vampiric Touch
Arcane Spells Level 4
Confusion
Contagion
Emotion: Hopelessness
Enchanted Weapon
Farsight
Fireshield (Blue)
Fireshield (Red)
Greater Malison
Ice Storm
Improved Invisibility
Minor Globe of Invulnerability
Minor Sequencer
Monster Summoning II
Otiluke's Resillient Sphere
Polymorph Other
Polymorph Self
Remove Curse
Secret Word
Spider Spawn
Spirit Armor
Stoneskin
Teleport Field
Wizard Eye
Arcane Spells Level 5
Animate Dead
Breach
Chaos
Cloudkill
Cone of Cold
Conjure Lesser Air Elemental
Conjure Lesser Earth Elemental
Conjure Lesser Fire Elemental
Domination
Feeblemind
Hold Monster
Lower Resistance
Minor Spell Turning
Monster Summoning III
Oracle
Phantom Blade
Protection from Acid
Protection from Electricity
Protection from Normal Weapons
Shadow Door
Spell Immunity
Spell Shield
Sunfire
Arcane Spells Level 6
Carrion Summons
Chain Lightning
Conjure Air Elemental
Conjure Earth Elemental
Conjure Fire Elemental
Contingency
Death Fog
Death Spell
Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Globe of Invulnerability
Improved Haste
Invisible Stalker
Mislead
Pierce Magic
Power Word, Silence
Protection from Magic Energy
Protection from Magical Weapons
Spell Deflection
Stone to Flesh
Summon Nishruu
Tenser's Transformation
True Sight
Wyvern Call
Arcane Spells Level 7
Cacofiend
Control Undead
Delayed Blast Fireball
Finger of Death
Improved Chaos Shield
Limited Wish
Mantle
Mass Invisibility
Mordenkainen's Sword
Power Word, Stun
Prismatic Spray
Project Image
Protection from Elements
Ruby Ray of Reversal
Spell Sequencer
Spell Turning
Sphere of Chaos
Summon Djinni
Summon Efreeti
Summon Hakeashar
Khelben's Warding Whip
Arcane Spells Level 8
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
Bigby's Clenched Fist
Improved Mantle
Incendiary Cloud
Maze
Pierce Shield
Power Word, Blind
Protection from Energy
Simulacrum
Spell Trigger
Summon Fiend
Symbol, Death
Symbol, Fear
Symbol, Stun
Arcane Spells Level 9
Absolute Immunity
Bigby's Crushing Hand
Black Blade of Disaster
Chain Contingency
Energy Drain
Freedom
Gate
Imprisonment
Meteor Swarm
Power Word, Kill
Shapechange
Spellstrike
Spell Trap
Time Stop
Wail of the Banshee
Wish
Arcane Spells Level 10
Comet
Dragon's Breath
Energy Blades
Improved Alacrity
Summon Dark Planetar
Summon Planetar
Divine Spells

Divine Spells Level 1
Armor of Faith
Bless
Command
Cure Light Wounds
Detect Evil
Doom
Entangle
Magical Stone
Protection from Evil
Remove Fear
Sanctuary
Shillelagh
Divine Spells Level 2
Aid
Barkskin
Chant
Charm Person or Mammal
Draw Upon Holy Might
Find Traps
Flame Blade
Goodberry
Hold Person
Know Alignment
Resist Fire and Cold
Silence 15' Radius
Slow Poison
Spiritual Hammer
Divine Spells Level 3
Animate Dead
Call Lightning
Cure Disease
Cure Medium Wounds
Dispel Magic
Glyph of Warding
Hold Animal
Holy Smite
Invisibility Purge
Miscast Magic
Protection from Fire
Remove Curse
Remove Paralysis
Rigid Thinking
Strength of One
Summon Insects
Unholy Blight
Zone of Sweet Air
Divine Spells Level 4
Animal Summoning I
Call Woodland Being
Cause Serious Wounds
Cloak of Fear
Cure Serious Wounds
Death Ward
Defensive Harmony
Farsight
Free Action
Holy Power
Lesser Restoration
Mental Domination
Negative Plane Protection
Neutralize Poison
Poison
Protection from Evil 10' Radius
Protection from Lightning
Divine Spells Level 5
Animal Summoning II
Cause Critical Wounds
Chaotic Commands
Cure Critical Wounds
Champion's Strength
Flame Strike
Greater Command
Insect Plague
Iron Skins
Magic Resistance
Mass Cure
Pixie Dust
Raise Dead
Repulse Undead
Righteous Magic
Slay Living
True Seeing
Divine Spells Level 6
Aerial Servant
Animal Summoning III
Blade Barrier
Bolt of Glory
Conjure Animals
Conjure Fire Elemental
Dolorous Decay
False Dawn
Fire Seeds
Harm
Heal
Physical Mirror
Sol's Searing Orb
Wondrous Recall
Divine Spells Level 7
Confusion
Conjure Earth Elemental
Creeping Doom
Earthquake
Finger of Death
Firestorm
Gate
Holy Word
Nature's Beauty
Greater Restoration
Resurrection
Shield of the Archons
Sunray
Symbol, Death
Symbol, Fear
Symbol, Stun
Unholy Word
Quest Spells
Aura of Flaming Death
Elemental Summoning
Elemental transformation
Globe of Blades
Greater Elemental Summoning
Implosion
Mass Raise Dead
Storm of Vengeance
Summon Deva
Summon Fallen Deva

Whats that you say? unrealistic expectations? they cant possibly implement and balance all of that?
They don't have to, its already been done in the AD&D IP. In fact that is the actual spell list from baldurs gate II.

and besides DAO with is classic RPG approach blew ME2 out of the water

Please, DAO is about as much a "classic RPG" as as it is a flaming ostrich. If you ask me its got far more in common with ME than it does any CRPG other than superficial looks.

 

[Kortney]

Never listen to the roaring minority. Seriously, for every person posting his or her disapproval of upcoming titles, there are bound many others who don't post, let alone go on forums to post about games.

Took the words right out of my mouth. There is an extremely noisy minority at work here.

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.

Yep. That's it. Same will happen with Dragon Age 2.

Same happened with Fallout 1 and 2 compared to 3 and New Vegas.

There is always a huge minority of whiners.

 

[Bobbity]

Never listen to the roaring minority. Seriously, for every person posting his or her disapproval of upcoming titles, there are bound many others who don't post, let alone go on forums to post about games.

Took the words right out of my mouth. There is an extremely noisy minority at work here.

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.

This^
The number of people who ***** that RPGs aren't nearly as good as they used to be is totally disproportionate to the number of people who actually enjoy the game. It's only a vocal few who know that the world eagerly awaits their verdict that make it seem as if RPGs are failing.

 

[BreakfastMan]

I never did understand the raging RPG fanatic mindset. I really like RPGs too (the genre is my favorite), but my tastes are much different than theirs, apparently. For example, I did not scream to the heavens "WHY IS THIS HAPPENING TO ME!!!" when they announced that DA2 would have more action-oriented combat. I also did not complain that ME2 was a worse game than ME1 due to stream-lining either (in fact, I like the second one much, much more than the first). As long as it has a decent, well-told story and does not make we want to through my controller/keyboard against a wall, I am good.

 

[Giuglea]

although i love MassEffect and DragonAge or Fallout3 , i miss Neverwinter Nights...i loved that game more than my first girlfriend..i`m keeping my hopes up for a NWN3..but now i think DA is too big to tackle...maybe in the future there will be room for another NWN..

 

[Zhukov]

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.

If a game is made so it suit a niche of the market and then the sequel removes what made that niche like it. It really doesn't matter that it sold better the game has still made a change that ruin it for people that loved the first. You can't just say that if a game sells better then it must be better. Not all people what the same from a game and it would be a shame if all game should be made to make it decent for big group instead of really good for a subgroup. And I find it a twice as sad when a sequel decide to take this road.

You are missing my point. I am not saying that ME1 is better then ME2 based on reviews and sales. That would be like saying the Twilight movies are better then Black Swan because they sold more tickets.

The OP was complaining about all the people complaing (ohh irony) about the new RPG releases.
I was pointing out that for every person whining on an internet forum, there are ten people having a good time playing the game.

That is all.

 

[manythings]

Or, it's actually really, REALLY similar and people like you just can't admit combat in a game doesn't need to glacial to be tactical. Better is subjective, making combat fancier and faster doesn't make it less pure.

Whatever you want to call it buddy, some of us just plain out and out prefer it turn based. I guess the years of table top D&D followed by years of great CRPGs have shaped our taste.

Each to their own.

Its not even just down to being turn based, baldur's gate wasn't turnbased as such anyway, its the detail of the mechanic and depth of the IP thats really important, not to mention the implementation of choice, dialogue, narrative etc.

Do I want a choice of 10 spells for my mage? No, I want a choice of this many spells:

Spoiler

Arcane Spells

Arcane Spells Level 1
Armor
Blindness
Burning Hands
Charm Person
Chill Touch
Chromatic Orb
Color Spray
Find Familiar
Friends
Grease
Identify
Infravision
Larloch's Minor Drain
Magic Missile
Nahal's Reckless Dweomer
Protection from Evil
Protection from Petrification
Reflected Image
Shield
Shocking Grasp
Sleep
Spook
Arcane Spells Level 2
Agannazar's Scorcher
Blur
Chaos Shield
Deafness
Detect Invisibility
Ghoul Touch
Glitterdust
Horror
Invisibility
Knock
Know Alignment
Luck
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mirror Image
Power Word, Sleep
Ray of Enfeeblement
Resist Fear
Stinking Cloud
Strength
Vocalize
Web
Arcane Spells Level 3
Clairvoyance
Detect Illusion
Dire Charm
Dispel Magic
Fireball
Flame Arrow
Ghost Armor
Haste
Hold Person
Hold Undead
Invisibility 10' Radius
Lightning Bolt
Melf's Minute Meteors
Minor Spell Deflection
Monster Summoning I
Non-Detection
Protection from Cold
Protection from Fire
Protection from Normal Missiles
Remove Magic
Skull Trap
Slow
Spell Thrust
Vampiric Touch
Arcane Spells Level 4
Confusion
Contagion
Emotion: Hopelessness
Enchanted Weapon
Farsight
Fireshield (Blue)
Fireshield (Red)
Greater Malison
Ice Storm
Improved Invisibility
Minor Globe of Invulnerability
Minor Sequencer
Monster Summoning II
Otiluke's Resillient Sphere
Polymorph Other
Polymorph Self
Remove Curse
Secret Word
Spider Spawn
Spirit Armor
Stoneskin
Teleport Field
Wizard Eye
Arcane Spells Level 5
Animate Dead
Breach
Chaos
Cloudkill
Cone of Cold
Conjure Lesser Air Elemental
Conjure Lesser Earth Elemental
Conjure Lesser Fire Elemental
Domination
Feeblemind
Hold Monster
Lower Resistance
Minor Spell Turning
Monster Summoning III
Oracle
Phantom Blade
Protection from Acid
Protection from Electricity
Protection from Normal Weapons
Shadow Door
Spell Immunity
Spell Shield
Sunfire
Arcane Spells Level 6
Carrion Summons
Chain Lightning
Conjure Air Elemental
Conjure Earth Elemental
Conjure Fire Elemental
Contingency
Death Fog
Death Spell
Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Globe of Invulnerability
Improved Haste
Invisible Stalker
Mislead
Pierce Magic
Power Word, Silence
Protection from Magic Energy
Protection from Magical Weapons
Spell Deflection
Stone to Flesh
Summon Nishruu
Tenser's Transformation
True Sight
Wyvern Call
Arcane Spells Level 7
Cacofiend
Control Undead
Delayed Blast Fireball
Finger of Death
Improved Chaos Shield
Limited Wish
Mantle
Mass Invisibility
Mordenkainen's Sword
Power Word, Stun
Prismatic Spray
Project Image
Protection from Elements
Ruby Ray of Reversal
Spell Sequencer
Spell Turning
Sphere of Chaos
Summon Djinni
Summon Efreeti
Summon Hakeashar
Khelben's Warding Whip
Arcane Spells Level 8
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
Bigby's Clenched Fist
Improved Mantle
Incendiary Cloud
Maze
Pierce Shield
Power Word, Blind
Protection from Energy
Simulacrum
Spell Trigger
Summon Fiend
Symbol, Death
Symbol, Fear
Symbol, Stun
Arcane Spells Level 9
Absolute Immunity
Bigby's Crushing Hand
Black Blade of Disaster
Chain Contingency
Energy Drain
Freedom
Gate
Imprisonment
Meteor Swarm
Power Word, Kill
Shapechange
Spellstrike
Spell Trap
Time Stop
Wail of the Banshee
Wish
Arcane Spells Level 10
Comet
Dragon's Breath
Energy Blades
Improved Alacrity
Summon Dark Planetar
Summon Planetar
Divine Spells

Divine Spells Level 1
Armor of Faith
Bless
Command
Cure Light Wounds
Detect Evil
Doom
Entangle
Magical Stone
Protection from Evil
Remove Fear
Sanctuary
Shillelagh
Divine Spells Level 2
Aid
Barkskin
Chant
Charm Person or Mammal
Draw Upon Holy Might
Find Traps
Flame Blade
Goodberry
Hold Person
Know Alignment
Resist Fire and Cold
Silence 15' Radius
Slow Poison
Spiritual Hammer
Divine Spells Level 3
Animate Dead
Call Lightning
Cure Disease
Cure Medium Wounds
Dispel Magic
Glyph of Warding
Hold Animal
Holy Smite
Invisibility Purge
Miscast Magic
Protection from Fire
Remove Curse
Remove Paralysis
Rigid Thinking
Strength of One
Summon Insects
Unholy Blight
Zone of Sweet Air
Divine Spells Level 4
Animal Summoning I
Call Woodland Being
Cause Serious Wounds
Cloak of Fear
Cure Serious Wounds
Death Ward
Defensive Harmony
Farsight
Free Action
Holy Power
Lesser Restoration
Mental Domination
Negative Plane Protection
Neutralize Poison
Poison
Protection from Evil 10' Radius
Protection from Lightning
Divine Spells Level 5
Animal Summoning II
Cause Critical Wounds
Chaotic Commands
Cure Critical Wounds
Champion's Strength
Flame Strike
Greater Command
Insect Plague
Iron Skins
Magic Resistance
Mass Cure
Pixie Dust
Raise Dead
Repulse Undead
Righteous Magic
Slay Living
True Seeing
Divine Spells Level 6
Aerial Servant
Animal Summoning III
Blade Barrier
Bolt of Glory
Conjure Animals
Conjure Fire Elemental
Dolorous Decay
False Dawn
Fire Seeds
Harm
Heal
Physical Mirror
Sol's Searing Orb
Wondrous Recall
Divine Spells Level 7
Confusion
Conjure Earth Elemental
Creeping Doom
Earthquake
Finger of Death
Firestorm
Gate
Holy Word
Nature's Beauty
Greater Restoration
Resurrection
Shield of the Archons
Sunray
Symbol, Death
Symbol, Fear
Symbol, Stun
Unholy Word
Quest Spells
Aura of Flaming Death
Elemental Summoning
Elemental transformation
Globe of Blades
Greater Elemental Summoning
Implosion
Mass Raise Dead
Storm of Vengeance
Summon Deva
Summon Fallen Deva

Whats that you say? unrealistic expectations? they cant possibly implement and balance all of that?
They don't have to, its already been done in the AD&D IP. In fact that is the actual spell list from baldurs gate II.

So in essence your idea of a great game is one you spend most of your time just not playing the game and just searching for your next ability? I played DnD for a while and really enjoyed it, that's what pen and paper is good for and it works really well. Transferring all that stuff bogs everything down in irrelevancies.

A whole party of people can manage twelve inventories and a nineteens skills and eight and three-quarter crafts as part of a team effort to build and contribute. That is satisfying and works, everyone has their function. All that in a game is just making more and more time you don't actually spend playing the game.

When a game is stopping me from playing it I have to wonder what is christ's name they think they are doing at the developers.

 

[Ladette]

NOOOOOOOOOO! ARRR-PEEE-JEEEEEZZZ are ruined forevuuuuuurrrrrr!!!! I don't like change! Change is bad! No! I demand new things but then I hate them for being different from the old things!

In other news, the OP's sarcasm level is over 8000.

 

[Kortney]

Never listen to the roaring minority. Seriously, for every person posting his or her disapproval of upcoming titles, there are bound many others who don't post, let alone go on forums to post about games.

Took the words right out of my mouth. There is an extremely noisy minority at work here.

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.

Yep. That's it. Same will happen with Dragon Age 2.

Same happened with Fallout 1 and 2 compared to 3 and New Vegas.

There is always a huge minority of whiners.

I have to agree with that I am truly sorry if this offends anyone but the fallout 1 and 2 loyalists are one of the whiniest groups of complainers I have ever encountered, not the people whom just think the 1st 2 are better but the ones whom are constantly screaming this in any discussion concerning fallout and hate that fallout 3 and NV even exist(you know whom i refer 2)

I agree. Bethesda was the best thing to ever happen to the Fallout universe. They gave it life, made it accessible and fun to thousands of more people within a new demographic and created one of the best RPGs (or action RPG, whatever you want to call it) of all time.

 

[latenightapplepie]

This why developers make games, and not fanboys.

I often have hopes for certain features or elements to be put in some games, but really, in the end, I trust good developers' judgement on what makes a good game.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

3)Despite that, the game should have an amazing story, as funny as Terry Pratchet, as exciting and original as Jim Butcher and as epic as JRR Tolkien. And that story should flow through the main quest and every side quest, each also being totally original, logical and fit the setting like a glove. Completely voice acted of course.

**blinks**

Jim Butcher, original? I mean, I'm a fan of his, and his novels are excellent, but Jim Butcher makes a career out of taking the oldest, most cliche idea he can find, spit-polishing it, and presenting it so damn well that it reads like the most awesome thing ever, even if it is actually a B-plot he wrote on a dare (I'm looking at you, Tavi).

OT: Actually, I think the real issue (sarcasm aside) is that fans want one or the other in a game.

I'd love a game where I played as a pre-scripted character and had no decisions to make (outside of combat, equipment, and strategy) if the story being told was interesting. Those games are better if they are fully voice-acted since there's only one script anyway and since I need that voice-acting so I can relate to the main character I'm playing.

On the other hand, I would also love a game that gave me absolute freedom to do and play as I liked. Personally, I'm sad I can't play an RPG where I'm a spy/cortessan sneaking and seducing my way through a series of enemies, accomplishing my goals without ever relying on killing or a party. That would be awesome. But having that option in a game where another player can murder everything that moves is very, very difficult to program. I realize that. Although a seducy-background and a few seducy dialogue options would make me happier. I want to be able to solve my problems through sexual manipulation - is that wrong?

Ahem. Anyway. The point being that freedom is good, or story is good - I realize I can't have both. It just feels like story games are being made worse by the forced freedom, which often comes off as superficial anyway. I'd honestly like to see a non-JRPG story based game where I can't customize my character.

Oh, and as far as combat goes, well, I like both styles, but there have hardly been any turn-based RPGs lately. I miss them.

 

[Continuity]

The number of people who ***** that RPGs aren't nearly as good as they used to be is totally disproportionate to the number of people who actually enjoy the game. It's only a vocal few who know that the world eagerly awaits their verdict that make it seem as if RPGs are failing.

True and false.

The real situation its that RPG is slipping out of the AAA market, and thats fine I guess, the AAA market does what the AAA market has to do, its turned its back on genre before. However RPGs are alive and well in the indie and low budget market so i'm happy enough.

do you win all your arguments by giving hostile comments to your supporters hm no wonder the game is changing. On second though I cant really complain as I had insulted so many people on this website I think its a miracle that I have not been suspended yet

Well firstly its not my intention to be hostile or insulting, sorry if thats how it comes across, secondly DAO isn't really a bad game, its just not quite to my taste - to be honest I enjoyed mass effect much more. In terms of recent AAA RPGs I can really only think of one that gets the full thumbs up from me and that a hack n'slash hybrid! (the witcher BTW), just goes to show how the scene has changed.

This why developers make games, and not fanboys.

Interplay's original motto:

"by gamers, for gamers."

 

[Evilpigeon]

I don't see what's wrong with expressing my views, even if they are contrary to popular opinion. I mean sure I blow minutia out of proportion but the minutia matter, a big part of RPGs for me is what I take away from it, and when people make changes that get in the way of me reliving that experience in the sequel then I'm not particularly happy.

On ME2: It didn't feel like an rpg and I didn't ejoy the game. There's also a fairly clear trail de-statting in bioware games and I don't like where it's going, I enjoy having mechanics to learn and exploit, not just bars to fill up that make my guns shoot a bit more accurately.

 

[Continuity]

So in essence your idea of a great game is one you spend most of your time just not playing the game and just searching for your next ability? I played DnD for a while and really enjoyed it, that's what pen and paper is good for and it works really well. Transferring all that stuff bogs everything down in irrelevancies.

A whole party of people can manage twelve inventories and a nineteens skills and eight and three-quarter crafts as part of a team effort to build and contribute. That is satisfying and works, everyone has their function. All that in a game is just making more and more time you don't actually spend playing the game.

When a game is stopping me from playing it I have to wonder what is christ's name they think they are doing at the developers.

Did you play these games? sure you can micromanage every character in the party or you can just have them level up automatically, following preset preferences. Hell, you could even do that for your own character if you were more about the narrative and less about the RPG. As for the inventories.. I like doing that, that is an important part of the game.

You say irrelevancies, I say Depth, choice, and re-playability :- Which is pretty much the definition of RPG... no?

 

[Spectrum_Prez]

Any hope for RPGs? I don't know OP, but for me the last 3 years ago have been really really great for RPGs and it has been a period of substantial flourishing.

Let me break it down as I see it.

There are basically three types of RPGs. These three types aim for different things, focus on different gameplay elements, and draw on different traditions. When a game straddles these types, purists will curse it for being a hybrid. What's more, when an RPG straddles the line between it's 'type' and another genre altogether, everyone gets outraged except for the millions of people actually playing the game and loving it.

The three types:
1) Hack and slash level grinders. The central aim of these games is to get you to play it as much as possible, over and over. The gameplay focus is leveling up and getting more loot, making your character/avatar progressively better. The obvious example here is Diablo, but while its spiritual successors have deviated greatly in form, they haven't changed in substance. World of Warcraft and other MMORPGs are the direct successor of Diablo 2, and have improved the hack and slash experience by adding social aspects to the games. Other deviations have included Borderlands, Hellgate: London, and the freeware Diablo clones that pop-up every now and then.

2) Story and character based games. The pedigree of these games is a little bit mixed. Clearly, they draw a lot from adventure games given their relative linearity and focus on telling a good narrative. At the same time, they also focus on character development. For Western RPGs, that usually means D&D inspired development, whereas for JRPGs (which I'm less familiar with) it seems to be mostly development through narrative. Either way, the element of choice in these RPGs is usually confined to your influence on the main character(s) and there is less freedom of what to do next or where to go. Leveling is functional, its purpose is to drive character personalization, not to kill more bad guys. The classic examples would be the Bioware games, lots of JRPGs, and independent gems like VtMB and the Witcher. The overlap with adventure games has *always* been strong. I simply fail to understand the criticism that ME2 is a dumbing down of ME, because Bioware games have always been half RPG, half adventure game.

3) Exploration based games. These games are mainly focused on discovery of new locations, vicarious thrills related to exploring a believable functioning world, and gradually achieving mastery over that world. Usually, these games are open-world. The paradigmatic example would be the Bethesda games, but I would also include GTA (and its clones) and Red Dead Redemption in here, even though they're not usually considered RPGs. The spiritual precursors of these sorts of games would be space exploration games and possibly even 4x strategy games. Story usually suffers because pacing is looser and there is little linearity. There is a lot more freedom to choose what to do next, which adds immersion. But these games are also more ambitious and therefore likely to result in developer overreach. Technical problems also abound, see the horrendous PC port of Saint's Row 2 for the best example.

I think these three archetypes have been around for pretty much a decade now. Certainly it was solidified by the time we had Morrowind, Knights of the Old Republic, and Diablo 2 as the three hottest contemporaneous RPGs. Since then, the idea of a unified RPG genre has been more or less an empty shell since these three types of game pull in different thematic directions. So it certainly shouldn't be surprising when every new release attracts a tonne of critics. Being an 'RPG fan' can be a big part of a person's identity. But because the idea of an RPG is so paper thin now, it's easy to stir up meaningless debate about what is and what isn't true to the term.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Wow. Either OP wasn't pretending, or people are taking this topic WAY too seriously.
Personally, I've mainly been playing turn based SRPGs lately and having a great time. I've been trying a regular RPG here and there, though, and quite frankly I don't see why so many people keep complaining about the genre going to hell in a handbasket. Enough different companies seem to be trying enough different things that there ought to be something out there for almost anyone (excepting, of course, Front Mission fans outside of Japan who don't like shitty TPSs).

 

[kingcom]

Never listen to the roaring minority. Seriously, for every person posting his or her disapproval of upcoming titles, there are bound many others who don't post, let alone go on forums to post about games.

Took the words right out of my mouth. There is an extremely noisy minority at work here.

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.

Yep. That's it. Same will happen with Dragon Age 2.

Same happened with Fallout 1 and 2 compared to 3 and New Vegas.

There is always a huge minority of whiners.

Or theres just a bunch of people who know they will never get to see games made for them ever again? That every time they see the hope of the type of game they like appearing, its taken away? You know people have different tastes in games, the people who complain have different tastes to the people buying and not complaining.

 

[kingcom]

I simply fail to understand the criticism that ME2 is a dumbing down of ME, because Bioware games have always been half RPG, half adventure game.

No they havn't

 

[latenightapplepie]

This why developers make games, and not fanboys.

Interplay's original motto:

"by gamers, for gamers."

Of course developers need to be play games themselves, I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I was just saying that by disregarding your own ideas as a developer, and making a game purely envisaged by your audience; that is a dumb move. There's a reason why they are the developers and I am the consumer; I have no idea what I'm doing, and they do. Sure there are instances when listening to your consumers is prudent. But only listening to them is foolish.

This why developers make games, and not fanboys.

I have hopes for content to be put in some games, but really, in the end, I trust good developers' judgement on what makes a good game.

good is in the eye of he beholder you should not trust anyones judgment but your own on what I good game is or is not.

I think I may have phrased that poorly. I mean I trust game developers' judgements more on what makes a good game than the fantastic expectations and demands of the rabid fanboys.

 

[TrevorGruen]

I love the bit "few simple requests". Those 3 things are the least simple things a game could have (to make a game with those 3 factors would take too much time and money for most developers to consider it). But hopefully the post was done sarcastically. =D