Anyone else bothered by the increased blurring of gender roles?

[Something Amyss]

From Post #19: Never once did I suggest or condone a return to a time of women being "barefoot and pregnant" in the kitchen while the manly men went out to hunt bears. I like that women work and men have shared responsibility with children. I don't think the father/husband should hold a dictatorship over his household and beat his wife and kids.

And yet, that's basically the end result of gender roles.

 

[Jedoro]

I'm only concerned that across the board children are becoming pansies, boys and girls. I know I'll be teaching my kids to be thick-skinned.

 

[Ham_authority95]

Many traditionally male roles and traits are no longer celebrated or instilled in today's youth. In my opinion, pop culture has largely contributed to the feminizing of men and boys. For example, one thing that particularly bothers me is how popular it is on TV shows to portray husbands and fathers as bumbling idiots who are easily controlled by their wives and children.

And let's not forget the hypersensitive nanny-state parents that don't let boys be boys. I worked as a camp counselor at my local YMCA with 12-14 year olds, and I have never seen such a group of sissies, hypochondriacs, and whiners. How are these boys going to grow up to be leaders of men and protectors of women?

EDIT: Since people on this forum never seem to read past the OP:

From Post #19: Never once did I suggest or condone a return to a time of women being "barefoot and pregnant" in the kitchen while the manly men went out to hunt bears. I like that women work and men have shared responsibility with children. I don't think the father/husband should hold a dictatorship over his household and beat his wife and kids.

But I do think that men and women have certain innate traits that make them better suited for different things. When I'm feeling sad and I need a sympathetic ear, I call my mother or a female friend, because women are generally better at empathy. And every girlfriend I've ever had enjoyed feeling safe in my presence, even if pragmatically there isn't much danger a cop couldn't protect her from. But boys and male teens today are increasingly turning into overly sensitive delicate flowers

I'm not concerned. If those with penises want to become delicate and sensitive, and those with vaginas want become protective and dominant, than so fucking be it.

Human society has its way of restructuring to different social trends. If it didn't, we would be dead right now, and that's why I'm not caring in the slightest.

 

[notsosavagemessiah]

Many traditionally male roles and traits are no longer celebrated or instilled in today's youth. In my opinion, pop culture has largely contributed to the feminizing of men and boys. For example, one thing that particularly bothers me is how popular it is on TV shows to portray husbands and fathers as bumbling idiots who are easily controlled by their wives and children.

And let's not forget the hypersensitive nanny-state parents that don't let boys be boys. I worked as a camp counselor at my local YMCA with 12-14 year olds, and I have never seen such a group of sissies, hypochondriacs, and whiners. How are these boys going to grow up to be leaders of men and protectors of women?

EDIT: Since people on this forum never seem to read past the OP:

From Post #19: Never once did I suggest or condone a return to a time of women being "barefoot and pregnant" in the kitchen while the manly men went out to hunt bears. I like that women work and men have shared responsibility with children. I don't think the father/husband should hold a dictatorship over his household and beat his wife and kids.

But I do think that men and women have certain innate traits that make them better suited for different things. When I'm feeling sad and I need a sympathetic ear, I call my mother or a female friend, because women are generally better at empathy. And every girlfriend I've ever had enjoyed feeling safe in my presence, even if pragmatically there isn't much danger a cop couldn't protect her from. But boys and male teens today are increasingly turning into overly sensitive delicate flowers

i think you're right about today's youth becoming increasingly feminine, but i think you have a basic lack of understanding of what is causing this. I certainly don't know, but i suspect it's because more and more marriages are ending in divorce, and resulting in the child being raised by the mother. There aren't any inherent genetic traits aside from an estrogen/testosterone gap that determine what a person is good or bad it. If you want to blame anything, blame society's lack of desire to learn why certain things (like hard work or excercise) are good things and have huge payoffs if you stick with them. You're just mad at women it seems, blaming them for society's ills while you yourself seem to have a gross misunderstanding of the situation.


edit: you're a republican aren't you?


also, societal roles will change as society changes. As we constantly move forward technologically, it becomes less and less necessary to be the hulking, manly brutes we once were, and instead, both men and women can come to a median societal norm that eventually becomes at least tolerable to both sides.

 

[Eggsnham]

Fail troll is fail.

 

[Brawndo]

I am sorry to say this but gender roles are something completly arbitrary. Want proof?

Name one thing that men can do better/different than women and that has any relevance in today's world.

Physical strenght, right. But is this relevant for us?
Nope.

In this world of gunpowder and tasers, this lone attribute becomes meaningless. A woman can drive a tank just as well as any man.

So. Are gender roles starting to fade? Yes.
Is this a bad thing? Depends on your point of view.
Are gender roles something necessary? Probably not.

Builder, Fitter, Mechanic etc?

There are plenty of jobs that need a degree of physical strength.
Yes women could do them, but the strength required comes more easily to males as we are genetically designed to be stronger.

While this is true none of these jobs have a high reputation or are very popular. Cpitalist world works against gender roles by emphazing the importance of money. Mechanics don't earn more than programmers = value of strenght fades.

But what this modern world takes for granted time and time again that these low-reputation physical jobs are crucial to allowing the rest of us to be programmers and stock brokers.

 

[Eldarion]

Many traditionally male roles and traits are no longer celebrated or instilled in today's youth. In my opinion, pop culture has largely contributed to the feminizing of men and boys. For example, one thing that particularly bothers me is how popular it is on TV shows to portray husbands and fathers as bumbling idiots who are easily controlled by their wives and children.

And let's not forget the hypersensitive nanny-state parents that don't let boys be boys. I worked as a camp counselor at my local YMCA with 12-14 year olds, and I have never seen such a group of sissies, hypochondriacs, and whiners. How are these boys going to grow up to be leaders of men and protectors of women?

EDIT: Since people on this forum never seem to read past the OP:

From Post #19: Never once did I suggest or condone a return to a time of women being "barefoot and pregnant" in the kitchen while the manly men went out to hunt bears. I like that women work and men have shared responsibility with children. I don't think the father/husband should hold a dictatorship over his household and beat his wife and kids.

But I do think that men and women have certain innate traits that make them better suited for different things. When I'm feeling sad and I need a sympathetic ear, I call my mother or a female friend, because women are generally better at empathy. And every girlfriend I've ever had enjoyed feeling safe in my presence, even if pragmatically there isn't much danger a cop couldn't protect her from. But boys and male teens today are increasingly turning into overly sensitive delicate flowers

I'm not sure if "concerned" is the appropriate term, but I definitely agree with the gist of this. It's becoming increasingly unpopular for a man to act as a man, and that just doesn't sit well with me. I don't really care about the "Gender Roles" per se, but I definitely think we should be teaching male children to be confident, assertive, and protective. It's not so much a gender thing as it is a maturity thing. The way we're going, we'll have whole generations insistent that someone else is at fault for every single problem they've ever had, and who refuse to take any sort of personal responsibility. It's depressing as all hell, and we need to fix that if we're ever going to move forward as a society.

I'd also list out what to teach women, but I still don't understand how they think, so I really can't. I would assume (and these are generalizations based on personal experience and stereotypes) that to reach an appropriate level of maturity, women should generally be taught compassion, empathy, and various other "maternal" aspects. That's just a guess though.

Why would you not just teach everyone to be confident, assertive and productive as well as to have compassion and empathy?

Cause they are all good traits to have and not exclusive to either gender.

 

[jamesworkshop]

You may not intend to set women back, but that is what you're doing when you say that they need protected or that men have traits they are built for sociologically that women arent. Or that Women would be less suited for them.

Personally, I dont see anything wrong with it. The "feminization" of men is what is allowing the gay and lesbian culture to make a nice emergence. Its also letting those soft spoken boys who like to write stories and poetry have an easier time. I mean, if you think about it, if you took Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare and put them into today's culture where muscle headed dumbshits are the ideal manly image in America, we wouldnt have the stories and poems that we do now (whether you like them or not).

Its also allowing the arts to come back and let men be apart of it. things like Fencing, track running, and other such sports that require a man to be lithe, lean and sleek arent being laughed as as much in comparison to the burly 300+ pound football player.

I'm slightly puzzled here at what point have Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare been considered feminine.
Also at what point have men been ostrasised from the arts or the Arts themselves be sidelined
When did people poke derision at Usain bolt
Which period of recent history lacked poetry or the writing of novels

Back when those minds where young they didn't live in a culture that has jocks bullying the small poet boys in school. Not being a macho guy wasn't looked down on as much then as it is now.

Macho is not masculine, it was very common for men of science or learning to be taught boxing and fencing as the primary methods of fitness, The knights of old were warriors trainined on the most brutal battlefields of history and yet they were expected to hold themselves in court, display expert penmanship, be well groomed, knowledgeable of history, eloquently spoken.
I see little to uphold this seemingly modern interpretation for the subsitution or incongruence of a strong arm for a learned mind, intelligence and logical reasoning have always been conerstones of masculinity

And the ancient greek ideal male body was muscular but slender, their statues are of svelte but strong men. They where pretty boys, but they where the solders that conquered most of the ancient world.

I know my history too

The intellectuals spoken of by the first poster in our little chain are still soft svelte young men, but they aren't as muscular, not as apt to be bold in the face on confrontation. They aren't at the peak of fighting form, they don't like fighting. My point is that there isn't really anything wrong with that. People should be who they are.

It's the greek ideal I was refering too, as held by knights and most playwrights, boxing was a greek sport and method of interpersonal combat, they may not be professional soldiers but there was a clear expectation, boxing and fencing were intended especially in shakespears time to be employed with deadly intent under proper circumstances.
They clearly believed that a lack of physical conditioning would weaken the mind.

?there is no doubt but he vanquisheth which is most nimble, and this nimbleness is not obtained by handling of great hefts or weights, but by often moving.? - Master Giacomo Di Grassi, 1570

 

[Eldarion]

Well, since women don't need men to protect them anymore let's hope we are never invaded because very few men today were taught to fight. I am sure women can hold their own though against an invading army.

It has been mentioned that masculinity is not needed in todays world. Well, there are still alot of professions that most women don't want. Dangerous and dirty jobs are predominately male. Don't see alot of women mining or working in the sewers. Even in everyday jobs where heavy lifting is required, men are required to the lifting. I have seen more than a few female clerks at Wal Mart call for a man to lift something heavy.

I wonder, would society collapse if men just stopped working, maybe moved to an island and left the running of society to women? After all, masculinity isn't needed in todays world.

This only makes sense if masculinity and feminine behavior is exclusive to men or women. It isn't, the women you see asking for a man to lift something aren't incapable of lifting heavy things because they are women, its because they as individuals just happen to not be very strong.

Ah, so it would ok for a weak man to call a strong woman to do the heavy lifting? You know as well as I how socially unacceptable that would be.

So what do you think, if men just moved to an island and left everything to the women to run, how would it go?

It would go fine because men and women are equally capable in society. Masculine and feminine traits develop at the individual level regardless of gender.

I work at wal mart, I can't lift pallets. I usually get a female coworker I work with to get them for me or help me with the heavy loads. No one belittles me about this, because most people have moved on from pre convinced gender notions.

LOL, yeah ok. The double standards are all gone and men and women are treated as if they have the exact same strengths and weaknesses. I have never seen that world.

You blind? Cause I'm finding it very hard to believe you.

No I am not blind there are loads of double standards in regards to this topic. Heavy lifting just being one of them. Did you know that men still have to register for the draft but women do not? Is that a double standard or am I blind?

Men are still tied to the porvider/protector gender role while women were freed from theirs. Ever talked to stay at home dads about how they are treated?

Are you going on about how its not fair to some of these double standards to exist? Or do you still think that only men can display masculine traits and that women need you to do the "men work". Cause I've already explained that masculine traits are not exclusive to men and vise versa.

Just cause some unfair double standards exist does not make them right, but I'm a compassionate sensitive male and most everyone I know has no problem with it.

 

[lumenadducere]

The other thing that bothers me is the idea that equal pay is ok, but if a woman decides/gets pregnant in the UK, the employer is supposed to keep their job for a year AND give them money. Essentially this means you fund a woman to care for their spawn (At a reduced rate than normal wages, but still) AND you can't replace the lost worker. For a big business, this isn't really a problem, but if your staff can be counted on a single hand, its a MASSIVE problem AND YOU CAN'T DO SHIT ABOUT IT AS AN EMPLOYER.

What, maternity leave? Men get paternity leave too, it's just a few months shorter. Does that mean employers should just cut wages across the board for everyone that's not sterile, then? That's a silly reason as to why anyone should be paid less.

 

[deadguynotyetburied]

I find it ironic that some feel it's important to have men around to protect women, when to such a ridiculous degree the only thing women need protecting FROM is men.

 

[Exterminas]

But what this modern world takes for granted time and time again that these low-reputation physical jobs are crucial to allowing the rest of us to be programmers and stock brokers.

That's kind of a flawed argument. Every job is important otherwise it would not exist. The problem with the "physical" jobs is that they can be done by everyone. Sure some people will be less efficient at them than others, but basically anyone who is a programmer could become a mechanic.
Not vice versa.

The only reason the discirbed gender roles ever existed is war.
War is a simply, physical task that was of mayor importance during some peroids of time. It allowed men to feel important, even if they lacked any ablity that went beyond being strong and shouting loud.

But today war has almost disappeared fro mthe western world, leaving the "physical" men with the feeling of being underrated.

 

[Headsprouter]

Hey, women complain when they're portrayed as fools in media. Men don't. They want to be treated as equals. But don't. They want to be treated as superior. They can get away with so much more than men can. Paedophilia is okay. If you're a woman. Well, it's not okay. It's just not as bad. A man could get 2 years, a woman could get two months. Not that you shouldn't be getting anything less than life for such an act. It tends to be ignored and called things such as ''an affair''. Quite annoying.

 

[BENZOOKA]

A good example of the modern gender roles is a successful Finnish scientist who had done a great job for over 20 years. Until he decided to do research of the differences of men and women.

Mostly for what purposes and areas of leadership either gender would suit better. He was supported throughout his research, but when he revealed the results, he was expelled from the institution he worked under in, the results were pretty much swept under the carpet (at least not publicized in the ordinary manner where they would've made any difference) and he was put into a position that he could never anymore receive fundings to do his work. The results didn't tell anything extraordinary. Neither were they biased. It just happened that according to the research: men were suited for more areas in leadership and most of the lines of 'purpose' and line of work, but it wasn't a landslide. The research only told cold facts that men were a bit better for most things. This was in the time of a great public discussion of equality on genders and because the results didn't produce a tie, he suffered the consequences. It is such a taboo.

This is a really tricky question and my previous rant has side-railed some bit, but it describes the delicacy of the subject at hand.

I can't really put my finger on this personally without writing a wall, so I'll just say I do love women.

 

[Terrik]

I don't mean to sound like a prick and all but its gonna happen anyways but then why can't I punch a girl in the face now a days but its totally fine to punch a dude in the face if he crosses me? Assuming of course the woman did the same.

Yeah, where's the equality in that?

 

[Eldarion]

You may not intend to set women back, but that is what you're doing when you say that they need protected or that men have traits they are built for sociologically that women arent. Or that Women would be less suited for them.

Personally, I dont see anything wrong with it. The "feminization" of men is what is allowing the gay and lesbian culture to make a nice emergence. Its also letting those soft spoken boys who like to write stories and poetry have an easier time. I mean, if you think about it, if you took Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare and put them into today's culture where muscle headed dumbshits are the ideal manly image in America, we wouldnt have the stories and poems that we do now (whether you like them or not).

Its also allowing the arts to come back and let men be apart of it. things like Fencing, track running, and other such sports that require a man to be lithe, lean and sleek arent being laughed as as much in comparison to the burly 300+ pound football player.

I'm slightly puzzled here at what point have Charles Dickens, or Edgar Allen Poe, or William Shakespeare been considered feminine.
Also at what point have men been ostrasised from the arts or the Arts themselves be sidelined
When did people poke derision at Usain bolt
Which period of recent history lacked poetry or the writing of novels

Back when those minds where young they didn't live in a culture that has jocks bullying the small poet boys in school. Not being a macho guy wasn't looked down on as much then as it is now.

Macho is not masculine, it was very common for men of science or learning to be taught boxing and fencing as the primary methods of fitness, The knights of old were warriors trainined on the most brutal battlefields of history and yet they were expected to hold themselves in court, display expert penmanship, be well groomed, knowledgeable of history, eloquently spoken.
I see little to uphold this seemingly modern interpretation for the subsitution or incongruence of a strong arm for a learned mind, intelligence and logical reasoning have always been conerstones of masculinity

And the ancient greek ideal male body was muscular but slender, their statues are of svelte but strong men. They where pretty boys, but they where the solders that conquered most of the ancient world.

I know my history too

The intellectuals spoken of by the first poster in our little chain are still soft svelte young men, but they aren't as muscular, not as apt to be bold in the face on confrontation. They aren't at the peak of fighting form, they don't like fighting. My point is that there isn't really anything wrong with that. People should be who they are.

It's the greek ideal I was refering too, as held by knights and most playwrights, boxing was a greek sport and method of interpersonal combat, they may not be professional soldiers but there was a clear expectation, boxing and fencing were intended especially in shakespears time to be employed with deadly intent under proper circumstances.
They clearly believed that a lack of physical conditioning would weaken the mind.

I must be missing your point then, the original post was about soft spoken sensitive boys of today. How the growing acceptance of feminine traits in men is allowing more of the softer boys to flourish better.

I mean, I agree that the famous minds of literature weren't exactly sissy. Was that your only issue with the above?