Are developers' standards slipping?

Recommended Videos

Dexiro

New member
Dec 23, 2009
2,974
0
0
Open world games are huge and bug fixing costs money, sometimes they simply can't afford to fix the bugs.

With other buggy games like Black Ops it's because they rush their games. They structure the programming badly and then can't be bothered to fix the bugs that it causes.
 

MiracleOfSound

Fight like a Krogan
Jan 3, 2009
17,773
0
0
Rusty Bucket said:
MiracleOfSound said:
played AC Brotherhood for 15 hours with not a single bug in sight
Save and quit while outside the Animus. Try it, it's fun.
I've done that twice, had no problems!

Is there a bug I should know about? Won't be tempting fate if there is.
 

MiracleOfSound

Fight like a Krogan
Jan 3, 2009
17,773
0
0
CTU_Loscombe said:
As far as physics go, it was justa case of when a character jumps, he must come back down. Modern games however are more complex with many more lines of code just to make a plank of wood fall off of a table.
It does seem to be very physics heavy games (Fallout, Oblivion) that seem to be the buggiest alright. Then again, the Gamebryo engine is notorious for it.

I was going to give Mass Effect 2 as an example of a well tested game and remembered it didn't have a whole lot of in-game physics to deal with (barring the combat). Most interactive items were fixed.
 

Rusty Bucket

New member
Dec 2, 2008
1,587
0
0
MiracleOfSound said:
Rusty Bucket said:
MiracleOfSound said:
played AC Brotherhood for 15 hours with not a single bug in sight
Save and quit while outside the Animus. Try it, it's fun.
I've done that twice, had no problems!

Is there a bug I should know about? Won't be tempting fate if there is.
This happened to me, and I've heard loads of other people complain about it. If you do it, there's a chance that when you load the game up again, you basically can't get back in the Animus. You'll climb in, it'll load for about 3 seconds and then spit you out again. Nothing you can do about it, that save is just gone. I lost 10 hours of play time thanks to that.

Not sure how common it is, but I would definitely advise you avoid doing it if possible.
 

MiracleOfSound

Fight like a Krogan
Jan 3, 2009
17,773
0
0
Rusty Bucket said:
This happened to me, and I've heard loads of other people complain about it. If you do it, there's a chance that when you load the game up again, you basically can't get back in the Animus. You'll climb in, it'll load for about 3 seconds and then spit you out again. Nothing you can do about it, that save is just gone. I lost 10 hours of play time thanks to that.

Not sure how common it is, but I would definitely advise you avoid doing it if possible.
Wow... that sucks man. Sorry to hear it. I shall be exiting the game only from Rome from now on!
 

Rusty Bucket

New member
Dec 2, 2008
1,587
0
0
MiracleOfSound said:
Rusty Bucket said:
This happened to me, and I've heard loads of other people complain about it. If you do it, there's a chance that when you load the game up again, you basically can't get back in the Animus. You'll climb in, it'll load for about 3 seconds and then spit you out again. Nothing you can do about it, that save is just gone. I lost 10 hours of play time thanks to that.

Not sure how common it is, but I would definitely advise you avoid doing it if possible.
Wow... that sucks man. Sorry to hear it. I shall be exiting the game only from Rome from now on!
It didn't actually bother me that much, it just emant I got to play more Assassin's Creed, which is never a bad thing. I will agree that it's a very stable game though. Other than this issue and a couple of hilarious physics glitches it's a very solid game.
 

DustyDrB

Made of ticky tacky
Jan 19, 2010
8,361
3
43
I have to agree with you about Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood (and the series in general) feeling pretty polished. Brotherhood can have some problems with triggering scripted events (happened to me in two different Romulus dungeons). But they have so many checkpoints that all I had to do was quit the memory and then reload it, then only losing a minute at most of gameplay.

You know, Obsidian sticks out like a sore thumb in this regard though. Most games I play are polished. I honestly didn't encounter a single bug in Red Dead Redemption, not even the cool ones that I've heard about. I played a few months after its' release, so it was probably patched. The only problem I can think of in BioWare games is texture popping, a common problem for the Unreal engine I hear. In Enslaved, I encountered one bug (the race against Pigsy, the camera panned out to show the environment but didn't return back to it's place behind Monkey. So I had to try to navigate without being able to see Monkey at all. I just reloaded the last checkpoint, though. Again, only a minute of gameplay gone). Nintendo games have all been bug-free for me. Majin and the Forsaken Kingdom has been so far as well.

The only games that I've played that are just riddled with bugs come from Obsidian and Bethesda. For huge open-world games, that sort of thing is expected. You can weed out every problem, but the cost and time of doing so would be so great that it would challenge the title from turning a profit. So I can kind of let Bethesda off the hook. Obsidian, however, is too consistent with bugs. They come small and negligible, they come large and game-breaking. They come in pretty much all titles they release. I can't even let them off the hook for New Vegas, despite it being a big open-world game, because many of the bugs come during quests ("I Put a Spell on You" and "Fly Me to the Moon" stick out) and happen in ways that it seems a QA team should be able to detect.
 

Twad

New member
Nov 19, 2009
1,254
0
0
It may be slipping downward. People dont like this. But people arent showing their disaproval with their money. (Becase this is how it works AFAIK) Ppl still buy and keep the overhyped, broken, half-finished games that are sold to them.
 

3AM

New member
Oct 21, 2010
227
0
0
Freezy_Breezy said:
Often, I wouldn't put it down to the developers, but the publishers. Sure, you've got the added "relaxation factor" of patches on the devs, but really, it's the publishers who set the release date and work the devs like crazy to get to it. Why do you think Valve games are so often well-made and bug free? Because they are their own publisher, if it won't be finished, they'll damn well push the time back. Same goes for indie games.

Black Ops release date was set in stone. Both previous CoDs were released on that day. Do you really think they had the time they wanted to work on it?
100% agreement. Release dates are a business decision, not a technical or artistic one. I work in IT in the corporate world and know full well that what's important there is to "meet your dates", not put out a bug-free product. Every job I've ever had there was an understanding that the days after a release are hell because you're madly scrambling to fix everything that went wrong instead of going out for a nice lunch and congratulating your team on jobs well done. It's so sad.
 

JourneyThroughHell

New member
Sep 21, 2009
5,003
0
0
They'll fix it later. Because they can, you know. In previous years, consequences for releasing a bugged game were far bigger.

MiracleOfSound said:
Black Ops, the most expensive, prestigious game of the year and biggest launch title EVER, has a campaign full of game breaking bugs, broken checkpoints and signposting pointing in the wrong direction.
Erm... It really doesn't. I went through it three times. I've encountered a bug only once and, after I grenaded myself, it was gone.

Now, the lobby system... is horseshit. I can't even seem toget into an HQ game, have to resort to Wager matches.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,756
0
0
MiracleOfSound said:
A month and a half later, New Vegas still hasn't been patched of it's file corrupting bugs, hundreds of glitches and quest breaking scripting errors.

Black Ops, the most expensive, prestigious game of the year and biggest launch title EVER, has a campaign full of game breaking bugs, broken checkpoints and signposting pointing in the wrong direction. Not to mention the horrendously broken party and lobby system and laggy servers.

Red Dead Redemption had more bugs than I could count. Horses falling through the ground, getting stuck in scenery, NPCs ceasing to have any AI...

Was it always like this? Were games always released in such unfinished and broken states? I don't remember ever having to download a patch for my NES, SNES, PS1 or PS2 era games... oh, that's right... we couldn't

I used to have beef with Ubisoft over thier DRM, but having played AC Brotherhood for 15 hours with not a single bug in sight, they're fast becoming one of my most respected developers. If only every company tested its games that well.

I know games are much bigger now, but is that really an excuse? Cars are more advanced than they used to be but you sure wouldn't want to drive around in an unfinished one with no brakes, or spend 100 quid on a hi-fi system that won't play your discs.

Is it getting worse? Has a more readily available Internet caused developers to change their attitudes to play-testing things properly, and do you think we will be seeing more and more shoddy, unfinished products hitting the shelves in future?
You're right, you couldn't download a patch for the PS1, SNES, etc. If the games were broken, you were stuck with them in their broken state.

ACB may be bug free, but AC2 was not. I wouldn't go patting them on the back just yet, assuming you haven't just got lucky.

Cars ARE released with "bugs" all the time. Funny enough, we've even had cars with rashes of brakes failures. And for 100 quid, I wouldn't expect a very good Hi Fi.

Got to say, though, things are getting worse, and I blame the consumer. You can blame the pubklisher and developer all you want, but when people line up for the next Fallout and it sells over a million copies even though the last game Obsidian made was a glitchfest, they're just rewarding the practice.
 

MiracleOfSound

Fight like a Krogan
Jan 3, 2009
17,773
0
0
Rusty Bucket said:
It didn't actually bother me that much, it just emant I got to play more Assassin's Creed, which is never a bad thing. I will agree that it's a very stable game though. Other than this issue and a couple of hilarious physics glitches it's a very solid game.
I had a kinda hilarious physics glitch that utterly ruined the mood of a sombre mission.

Without spoiling anything, it involved 3 dead bodies gyrating in a boat. I'm sure you know the mission.
 

Onyx Oblivion

Borderlands Addict. Again.
Sep 9, 2008
17,021
0
0
I don't know about Western devs...They release first, patch later.

Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood has a ton of glitched trophies. I didn't get the one for completing sequence 3...Or one of the tombs. Or the one for killing with a broom. And I counter killed with a broom, execution killed with a broom, KILL STREAKED with a broom. I've done it all.

But Japanese devs tend to have the game's code polished to a fucking shine.

I've rarely seen any bugs. Even in their RPGs. Which is huge, because with WRPGs, bugs are a fact of life. 60 hours of Final Fantasy 13 without a bug in sight. 4 playthroughs of Vanquish without a single enemy getting stuck inside cover.

Only bugs in JRPGs that I've ever seen are in the Pokemon games, really. And those things are not found naturally. You didn't "accidentally" stumble upon M-Block.
 

TaboriHK

New member
Sep 15, 2008
811
0
0
I don't know if they're slipping, to be honest. Games are GIANT now. I loved Super Metroid. It was the game that made me into a gamer. And that game is a fraction of the size Red Dead or New Vegas is. I totally get that bugs are frustrating, annoying, and sometimes gamebreaking. Believe that. There's a quest in New Vegas I couldn't do because the area it took place in froze the game for me. 8 times, I checked. And most of these problems existed in Fallout 3. That's pretty shitty. But I think it's a cultural thing here that's the culprit. Game companies want money now - so they'll rush a game to get their increasingly-huge investments back. A team is only human. If they are asked to make a big product fast, this will happen. I think until our culture finds a way to stave off some of the ADD-need-a-fix-now behavior, and companies have a little more patience in their investments (may never happen but alas, one can dream), this is only going to get worse because games just keep getting bigger.
 

Piction Froject

New member
Nov 11, 2010
122
0
0
I believe it's mostly large sandbox games that are in the worst shape. Fallout is a big one and very recent, to give an example of one. Most other games do have the bugs you are talking about but not as apparent and such a hindrance as other games.
 

Netrigan

New member
Sep 29, 2010
1,924
0
0
A lot of early games (which were incredibly simple) had game-stopping bugs. These are the infamous Kill-Screens which were only experienced by really skilled players, but it's the same underlying principle. The player doing something the programmer didn't expect, namely not getting killed off fairly quickly.

My first real experience with a game-stopping bug happened with the classic Atari 2600 game, Pitfall. For whatever reason, if I attempted to play the game on my system (and I tried three or four different copies), I could only play for about five minutes before jump glitches started happening. When I pressed the jump button anywhere on the screen, I'd be swinging on a vine... whether one existed or not. A few minutes later, it would get so bad that I couldn't jump off of a vine without immediately attaching back to it. Same games worked fine on every other system I tried it on, so it was an isolated hardware glitch. Great game, everyone loved it, but a buggy waste of money on my end.

Games today are really complicated with all sorts of interactions going on. Flaws in hardware or software are in the mix (we're talking imperfections that are unique to your console). The various AI routines are interacting with each other in unpredictable ways. A lot of these glitches are one-offs, something you're likely to never see happen again. Others can be replicated. Some are known glitches, others unknown... and it can take months of millions of people going out and playing in all sorts of ways to find the unknown ones. The more complex the system, the more mistakes are going to creep in and fixing one often creates another one somewhere else (think about how your body acts... you take one medicine to fix one problem then have to deal with another problem elsewhere, hopefully smaller than the original one).

This doesn't excuse a company from releasing a game with show-stopping bugs that are heavily reported within hours of release. Those are obviously known issues that they approached with the "we'll patch it later" mentality. But especially with open world games, you're going to find glitches and bugs. The worlds are simply too big for a small handful of play-testers to find all the potential problems. As long as the game is easily playable and can be finished under the most common circumstances, then I think they did their job. And when the bugs come out that along the lines of "when the car is struck from behind while the air condition is on and the right blinker is on, then the car explodes", you fix them if they're deemed serious enough.
 

JourneyThroughHell

New member
Sep 21, 2009
5,003
0
0
Scrumpmonkey said:
I've always wondered why the CoD games are so praised for their online componant but MW2 and Black Ops both have borderline broken online systems and the PC systems on both are just intollerable. How can people not see this? There are glaring problems with getting into a match, the maps that are used in those matches and the actualy online gamplay it's self (sponging, quicksoping, exploiting etc etc). I find it broken at every turn.
This is the first CoD game I'm experiencing lobby problems with. The first one.

And, you know, for all the connection issues, Black Ops is incredibly fun online - even the Wager matches are enough to held the online component in high regard.

There are no problems with the maps, either.
 

Wicky_42

New member
Sep 15, 2008
2,468
0
0
Scrumpmonkey said:
I've always wondered why the CoD games are so praised for their online componant but MW2 and Black Ops both have borderline broken online systems and the PC systems on both are just intollerable. How can people not see this? There are glaring problems with getting into a match, the maps that are used in those matches and the actualy online gamplay it's self (sponging, quicksoping, exploiting etc etc). I find it broken at every turn.
Bad Company 2 also had an absolutely broken matchmaker at the start - it was almost unplayable for many people (myself included) for the first month or so as the lobby bounced you, patches didn't apply, Punkbuster kept changing versions and not updating, there were no informative error messages, you couldn't sort the lobby (although at least there was one), games wouldn't show up etc etc etc.

Buggy games do seem more prevalent these days, though they've been on the rise ever since the internet really took off and an online patch service was standard. It's only now that consoles are getting the same patch facility that publishers are getting this 'release early, fix later' approach really grained in.

It has the potential to be incredibly damaging for the industry, though kudos to the few who consistently release properly completed games.
 

Grufflenark

New member
Nov 17, 2010
248
0
0
Freezy_Breezy said:
Often, I wouldn't put it down to the developers, but the publishers. Sure, you've got the added "relaxation factor" of patches on the devs, but really, it's the publishers who set the release date and work the devs like crazy to get to it. Why do you think Valve games are so often well-made and bug free? Because they are their own publisher, if it won't be finished, they'll damn well push the time back. Same goes for indie games.

Black Ops release date was set in stone. Both previous CoDs were released on that day. Do you really think they had the time they wanted to work on it?
And thus Valve time was created.

Also Activision wants ca$h.

Also EA is Valves publisher often, but now with Steam it's not needed anymore.
 

MrJoyless

New member
May 26, 2010
259
0
0
TheComedown said:
They have been going down hill for years, probably around the time when they realized that with the online capabilities consoles were getting they could release shit and say they will patch it later. "Here buy our game. We'll make it later" It's getting old fast and really needs to stop, they should be held accountable for this crap, if a food joint serves a dodgy burger or meal or something, they get the pants sued off them and often get shut down. This should happen to studios. No more excuses.
im pretty sure this whole post sums up my feelings towards devs currently making games. seriously look around what games do you know of that have massive game breaking issues that were patched after the game was released. my only thought is that they are doing these patches as a way to make pirating more difficult, the only issue is that the pirates/hackers are doing their job better than the developers themselves at fixing games (i understand that fallout new vegas has almost every issue fixed by "hackers" already and we are still waiting on an official patch). the only type of games we are seeing come out fully polished anymore are the arcade games offered by indie developers who must release a polished game....seems the big guys are just getting lazy.