Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

someonehairy-ish

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Because most writers for games are male and men are usually crap at writing good female characters other than the few usual archetypes.
So you're stuck with the same shit stereotypes popping up over and over.

Plus a lot of game devs don't want a female lead because they think it'll kill immersion for guys. Or something.
 

MomoElektra

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omega 616 said:
MomoElektra said:
omega 616 said:
Me and my friends in college used to say all kinds of racist things about every race, doesn't mean we wear white bedding, have swastikas tattooed on us or burn crosses on black folks lawns.
These friends of yours consist of several people, right?

Some might be of the "burn/hang them" persuasion. Others might not. You might not know, because nowadays it is, for good reason, dangerous to say that.

But... think... the racists of the burn/hang them persuasion... do they feel disgouraced by your antics of those days or do they feel encouraged?

Congratulations. You have successfully contributed to racism.

Now the question is, do you care or not? Because I don't think you care.
None of us where, 2 of them love the NFL (in fact 1 plays in the uk and the other used to play rugby (with black people) but broke his neck in a car crash) and "like" about 50 black people who play on facebook.

"I'm not racist. Some of my best friends are black!"

Them 2 plus another had 2 black friends that I know of, who by the way made racist comments to each other, like craker and once one of them said "fuckin' hell we look like an Everton mint here!" 'cos they were sat white person, black person, white person.
It's different if marginalized group uses it as a means of empowerment.

Another 2 have a couple of black friends.
"I know someone who has black friends!"

I am the only person who has no black friends, I know a half cast person but that's about it.
Er...

You think I am burning people on crosses?
No. I think you are the kind of person who makes it possible for other people to think burning people (on crosses) will get them brownie points.

You can think what you like and believe all or nothing of what I just said but this thread is about sexism, not racism.
Ah, deflecting. How not nice.
 

wench

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May 1, 2008
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omega 616 said:
Kahunaburger said:
Yeah, that sure is a pretty picture, is it wrong though?

Me and my friends in college used to say all kinds of racist things about every race, doesn't mean we wear white bedding, have swastikas tattooed on us or burn crosses on black folks lawns.

This is off topic anyway, it's about sexism, not racism.
Yeah, you've totally lost me here. I could have bought some of your original arguments, but at this point... Look, you don't have to actually lynch people to be racist. The fact that you're a racist who doesn't kill people puts you on exactly the same ground as the sexist who doesn't rape people - sure, you could be worse, but that doesn't in any way make what you're doing ok.

The really annoying thing is that I'm still going to have to argue that "*****" can be used positively by non-bitches while knowing that your original use of the word that I was defending likely doesn't fall into the "positive" category. Hmph. Well, I still think my point's valid, even if the example isn't.
 

MomoElektra

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wench said:
The really annoying thing is that I'm still going to have to argue that "*****" can be used positively by non-bitches while knowing that your original use of the word that I was defending likely doesn't fall into the "positive" category. Hmph. Well, I still think my point's valid, even if the example isn't.
If it makes you happy I'm not saying you are wrong, I am saying it isn't that simple.
 

omega 616

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MomoElektra said:
wench said:
I just posted this above you and I hope this will put an end to this crap 'cos I think you're both grabbing the shitty part of the stick.

"I was picked on all through school, I don't care what people call me ... call me Hitler if you like 'cos I know in my heart I have nothing against any race, sexuality or gender. You can have every race in your blood, be a transexual bisexual, with tunnels in your ears, love alcohol and weed and you like to be dominated in the bedroom and I would think you were interesting.

Which is a lot more than some people can say, remember that thread where a bisexual was being told there is no such thing as bisexuality?".

Now, I will stop posting in this thread 'cos I am watching prison break, with a brew and this is off topic.

So all future quotes will deleted without reading, waste your time if you like though.
 

Subaltern

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omega 616 said:
To them people I say get a spine or be a duck and treat it like water.

I was picked on all through school, I don't care what people call me ... call me Hitler if you like 'cos I know in my heart I have nothing against any race, sexuality or gender. You can have every race in your blood, be a transexual bisexual, with tunnels in your ears, love alcohol and weed and you like to be dominated in the bedroom and I would think you were interesting.

Which is a lot more than some people can say, remember that thread where a bisexual was being told there is no such thing as bisexuality?
Hey, it's really cool that you're a really sheltered racist and sexist who people made fun of, but for a lot of people out there in the world, verbal slurs are just the beginning and often follow with physical harassment and abuse.

So no, you don't get to decide how other people feel, especially when they face a whole lot more out there in the world than you will ever even dream of.

Maybe you should follow your own advice and stop being so sensitive when people call you out for saying racist, homophobic, or sexist shit?

I'm sorry you were bullied, but that does not give you an excuse to bully others and be a little human turd.
 

wench

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MomoElektra said:
(assorted snipping done)

Now that I've read your response I kind of agree.

Yeah, but weather or not it still hurts is up to the individual. No one else. Maybe it is not intentional, but as you said before, careful phrasing might be important.
Fair enough! If someone was using it in a hurtful way, or around someone who wasn't ok with it, I'd totally be all over them.

If you don't mind I'm not going to tell you otherwise. But you saying you don't mind might be seen as incouragment to use those words even in a negative way. Because that's the thing: What is positive or negative is not a universal fact agreed on by everyone.

I think I get what you are saying, though.
Definitely - and it's an area with a whole lot of gray and some jagged borders - total minefield. I feel like pushing the boundaries on it a bit helps to move the language towards a more positive usage overall, but it's not without hazards and I try to avoid making my language attitude anyone else's... well, except on forums. ;)
 

need4snacks

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The overwhelming amount of pandering to men is a result of market forces. I believe men still make up the majority of what we can describe as hardcore gaming; both with consumers and producers. So it makes sense that these games would be based around the desires of men. It's not misogynist, or counter-progressive. I admit, it might be wise to try and expand your player base to include women, since they make up such a large part of the population, but it shouldn't be looked down upon as immoral or wrong because they don't.

MARKET FORCES people.
 

Subaltern

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need4snacks said:
The overwhelming amount of pandering to men is a result of market forces. I believe men still make up the majority of what we can describe as hardcore gaming; both with consumers and producers. So it makes sense that these games would be based around the desires of men. It's not misogynist, or counter-progressive. I admit, it might be wise to try and expand your player base to include women, since they make up such a large part of the population, but it shouldn't be looked down upon as immoral or wrong because they don't.

MARKET FORCES people.
Actually, if it was truly market forces then you would see far more diversity since there are billions of people who aren't straight white men. There's an ungodly amount of money to be made by expanding the market.

And sorry, but things can still be misogynistic (or racist or homophobic) even if they aren't deliberate or intentional actions or even if they are supposedly governed by "market forces".

What matters in the end is the effect on the population in question, not what the actor thinks or intends.
 

MomoElektra

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wench said:
Definitely - and it's an area with a whole lot of gray and some jagged borders - total minefield. I feel like pushing the boundaries on it a bit helps to move the language towards a more positive usage overall, but it's not without hazards and I try to avoid making my language attitude anyone else's... well, except on forums. ;)
Yeah, I get you.

I think my main problem is with the practical or real life.

I feel that privileged people, and I am very much one of them, often push those boundaries (and I agree pushing those is, barring few exceptions, a good thing) on behalf of those marginalized groups, instead of with them, with them taking the lead (because then they are the ones that matter).

It's a subtle difference.
 

MomoElektra

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fookolt said:
What matters in the end is the effect on the population in question, not what the actor thinks or intends.
I am in fear of being reprimanded again for lack of content, but I just have to link to this:

http://genderbitch.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/intent-its-fucking-magic/
http://kiriamaya.tumblr.com/post/10985648124/intent-is-not-magical
http://ayries.tumblr.com/post/3813564440/why-intent-is-not-magical
 

flames09

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xXxJessicaxXx said:
omega 616 said:
Like your perfect game would be MLP, all nice pastel colours, everybody is always super happy, everything overly cute and rather sickening.
Hell my favorite games as a young lass was the Strike games flying a helicopter and blowing stuff up.
hahaha yes I loved strike, soviet strike was the best game evar!!!
 

Subaltern

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MomoElektra said:
fookolt said:
What matters in the end is the effect on the population in question, not what the actor thinks or intends.
I am in fear of being reprimanded again for lack of content, but I just have to link to this:

http://genderbitch.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/intent-its-fucking-magic/
http://kiriamaya.tumblr.com/post/10985648124/intent-is-not-magical
http://ayries.tumblr.com/post/3813564440/why-intent-is-not-magical
Those are excellent articles that really help explain why intent does not matter one bit when it comes to speech (and how people judge the speaker and their speech).

I am a game developer. I don't care how you truly feel inside about gay people or women or how talented you are in programming, level design, or 3D modeling, but if you say "stupid fags" or "dumb bitches" around me, you automatically lose any and all credibility in everything you ever say and I will never want you on my team.

That's how the real world works.
 

Atmos Duality

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Some developers and publishers are misogynistic. *shrugs*
Does this mean most of mainstream developers do this? Probably not; certainly not intentionally.

The problem stems from a self-fulfilling prophecy of demographics. I know and have met plenty of gamer girls and women (my sister is a hardcore gamer too); they aren't that wildly different from male's tastes in terms of mechanics and gameplay. Really, it's not a problem until the presentation/style dips into either the realm of misogyny or pandering (to either gender).
 

NoNameMcgee

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As a male I agree. But you mentioned Bioware as an exception, they're not really. At least not in the Mass Effect games (haven't played much of anything else from them). In Mass Effect 1 & 2 being male was still considered the default with female being a kind of extra bonus. I played femshep and there were several times she was referred to as sir, or "man", its also obvious she used all of manshep's animations and didn't have any of her own.

I would really like to see games embrace some more complex characters, Male and Female, instead of the typical archetypes we've seen so many times before. Just because the protagonist is a male doesn't mean he has to have some muscles larger than his head and talk like he just finished chewing on some bricks. He could be vulnerable in some ways, have interesting flaws, while still being badass. And just 'cause the protagonist is female doesn't mean she has to have massive breasts, talk in a flirtacious tone constantly and wear revealing clothing either. Both of these things take something away from a game on an equal level for me because I value my immersion.

This is one thing that's good about RPGs though, you can design your own character with their own traits. That's why my femshep is a badass, cold & logical leaning-towards-renegade character who isn't interested in men and has had a long-term 3 game relationship with Liara.

Also OP, you should take a looksie at the new Tomb Raider game (you know, the one that is just called Tomb Raider again with no subtitle) Lara Croft has had a redesign and not only does she seem way more interesting and refreshingly non-sexualized, with breasts that are actually considerably smaller than melons this time, but the game is looking really cool and unique as well. And if you've yet to play Half-Life 2, I advise it, since Alyx is still the best and most realistic female character in gaming.
 

Phasmal

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need4snacks said:
The overwhelming amount of pandering to men is a result of market forces. I believe men still make up the majority of what we can describe as hardcore gaming; both with consumers and producers. So it makes sense that these games would be based around the desires of men. It's not misogynist, or counter-progressive. I admit, it might be wise to try and expand your player base to include women, since they make up such a large part of the population, but it shouldn't be looked down upon as immoral or wrong because they don't.

MARKET FORCES people.
This is mightily frustrating.
The gaming industy going `Sorry, sweetie, we just dont think you matter/exist`.
Also, widening the inclusiveness would be beneficial, it could bring in more women and more money.

Plus, if I was a dude, I would find the cheap obvious pandering and sexism in games horribly offensive because of the things they would be assuming about me (and I know some gamer dudes do).

The only thing I can think of as to why game companies are happy to churn out stupid pandering and stereotypes- they are being lazy. It's that old `Fuck it- games are for teenage boys so lets not even acknowledge anyone else`.
 

Casual Shinji

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AverageJoe said:
And if you've yet to play Half-Life 2, I advise it, since Alyx is still the best and most realistic female character in gaming.
Unfortunately that all changed in Episode 2 where she played the damsel in distress, and where even her own father suggested that Gordon ought to knock her up.

So much for that independent lady.
 

Freechoice

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Casual Shinji said:
AverageJoe said:
And if you've yet to play Half-Life 2, I advise it, since Alyx is still the best and most realistic female character in gaming.
Unfortunately that all changed in Episode 2 where she played the damsel in distress, and where even her own father suggested that Gordon ought to knock her up.

So much for that independent lady.
Didn't she fawn over Gordon despite not ever having known him? Is she really a strong, independent female or was she only "respectable" because her tits weren't the size of howitzer shells?

Besides, she was annoying as fuck. At least Cassidy and Veronica in New Vegas were interesting to listen to.