Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

[wench]

I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. I rarely see games that are actively sexist (as opposed to ones that just skimp on the women), but I'm always happy to see games that really make an effort to give 3-dimensional women characters. Bioware's been a real stand-out in this regard for me.

Personally, I didn't find Witcher to be misogynistic. I do think that there does seem to be some areas where sex is confused with sexism. It's pretty equal-opportunity as far as being clever or stupid, pretty or ugly, nice or evil goes. Having lots of sex does not equal being misogynistic. (Yes, I do have every single sex card.)

And sure, Catwoman is objectified, but that doesn't make me think she's any less awesome. (I so wanted to be Catwoman a la Eartha Kitt when I was a kid. Her, Emma Peel, and Valeria from Conan - rowr.) As far as women in video games having DD cups... well, so do I, so I'm all for being well-represented.

 

[dimensional]

Well I dont know if mainstream devs are deliberately trying to discourage women from playing their games or not but if they are they are doing a pretty poor job of it I know more women who play games (mainstream and casual) now than I ever have before and thats not because I know a lot more women all of a sudden.

 

[Woodsey]

Assassins Creed 3 said that a female protagonist wouldn't fit into the period of the game (yet a Native American would be acceptable and wouldn't rouse suspicion wherever he went?).

He's half-Native American (so he's not going to draw too much attention), and it does make more sense than having a woman carry a trunk-load of weapons around with her at that time.

The Witcher of course has Geralt whose misogyny is accepted because of the books. Meanwhile if developers made a Conan game would he be portrayed as a racist?

Geralt's as misogynistic as you make him (at least in the second game - CDP took note in response to those criticisms of the first game), so that doesn't really work. I'm pretty sure you can also be racist (albeit to Dwarves and Elves).

However, I would like to see more female protagonists, or at least more realistic secondary female characters.

Although I think you've got the logic backwards: it's not that they want to discourage female gamers, it's that they don't want to discourage male gamers, and white, heterosexual males tend to kick up a fuss about supposed 'pandering' anytime they're not the main feature.

 

[Subaltern]

Although I think you've got the logic backwards: it's not that they want to discourage female gamers, it's that they don't want to discourage male gamers, and white, heterosexual males tend to kick up a fuss about supposed 'pandering' anytime they're not the main feature.

Those straight white males will need to deal with their overwhelming sense of bratty entitlement sooner or later because whether they like it or not, demographic trends are pointing to them becoming a smaller and smaller part of the general population every year.

I'm sure they conveniently won't be such corporate apologists at that point though.

 

[Freechoice]

Let's be honest here, more men play video games than women, especially when it comes to the more 'hardcore' style games. A lot more men. Thus developers tend to cater to their intended audience.

When more women get into gaming as a hobby and make themselves known as an influence within the medium things will change, until then you'll have the majority of hardcore games catering towards the majority of their audience. It's a pity really, but there you go. Sort of a self-perpetuating circle: not enough women play these sorts of games and so developers generally don't try to appeal towards them which, in turn, discourages more women from playing games.

Statistically around 2 in 5 'gamers' are women which sounds encouraging until you realize that of those around 80% primarily play on the wii, where it would be a fair guess to say they're not playing games like Resident Evil 4 (Which was awesome on the wii) but more of the wii sports, wii fitness type of games. source

Again it's a shame but there you go.

On a side note I continue to disagree with you about The Witcher, but I remember we've talked about that before in a previous topic and I really don't feel like another bout of pointless debate that will change nothing.

Sir, you're fuckin' awesome.

Spoiler: Here's a cookie

 

[Woodsey]

Although I think you've got the logic backwards: it's not that they want to discourage female gamers, it's that they don't want to discourage male gamers, and white, heterosexual males tend to kick up a fuss about supposed 'pandering' anytime they're not the main feature.

Those straight white males will need to deal with their overwhelming sense of bratty entitlement sooner or later because whether they like it or not, demographic trends are pointing to them becoming a smaller and smaller part of the general population every year.

I'm sure they conveniently won't be such corporate apologists at that point though.

Demographic trends in the general population, true. Not so sure about that being true of people who a) make games or b) play games, so there'll be quite a bit of lag until it catches up.

 

[omega 616]

snip

Sorry, I worded that so badly!

I meant in the eyes of the devs the perfect game for girls would be ....

Of course I was using bucket fulls of hyperbole.

snip

BTW I loathe MLP and the thought of MLP games horrifies me.

Lets not get into that here though for the above quote corrects my mistake.

Or it would turn out as this bland gender neutral game 'cos they were trying oh so hard to keep everybody happy and not make waves.

No it wouldn't. It would turn into Final Fantasy X-2. The class mechanic for that game is essentially changing outfits, unlocking more outfits and upgrading the abilities in that outfit. Then you have scenes where the three girls are doing what stereotypical teenage girls do. That side of the game is Squeenix's way of catering to women, i'm not saying it's the ideal way and i'm not saying I approve of it, but it's how they tried to do it.

BUT THEN it takes a U turn and you get the scenes such as the massage scenes as well as the Gagazet hot spring scene and the fact that most of the outfits (including Rikku's default outfit) lack a lot of clothing.

Sorry, what game are you talking about? lulz!

You do realize what you said, right? The aimed the dress up barbie segments at girls and the (to me) unseen scenes you talked about.

There was no "here is a game for both sexes".

The only games I think do it right are bioware ones, I am not some bioware fanboy but there females are pretty awesome!

I love Jack and Morrigan, the other females aren't bad either. They are just like the males, they dress a little more revealing but don't females IRL do that? There are pure bitches and badass's like Morrigan and Jack but there are also hopeless romantics (leliana), determined but kinda cool ones (Miranda, Tali).

 

[Subaltern]

Although I think you've got the logic backwards: it's not that they want to discourage female gamers, it's that they don't want to discourage male gamers, and white, heterosexual males tend to kick up a fuss about supposed 'pandering' anytime they're not the main feature.

Those straight white males will need to deal with their overwhelming sense of bratty entitlement sooner or later because whether they like it or not, demographic trends are pointing to them becoming a smaller and smaller part of the general population every year.

I'm sure they conveniently won't be such corporate apologists at that point though.

Demographic trends in the general population, true. Not so sure about that being true of people who a) make games or b) play games, so there'll be quite a bit of lag until it catches up.

Those will catch up eventually (you can already see it in those who play games).

At that point, I hope all those entitled brats will have the mental fortitude to deal with the entire world moving on and leaving them behind.

In any case, it's in the best interest of both developers and gamers to have more diversity and inclusiveness in games.

 

[Kahunaburger]

The only games I think do it right are bioware ones, I am not some bioware fanboy but there females are pretty awesome!

I love Jack and Morrigan, the other females aren't bad either. They are just like the males, they dress a little more revealing but don't females IRL do that? There are pure bitches and badass's like Morrigan and Jack but there are also hopeless romantics (leliana), determined but kinda cool ones (Miranda, Tali).

Bolded: probably not the best choice of terminology.

I think that Bioware writing tends to reflect a variety of sexist notions whenever they write a given female character as a love interest. They do write female characters in a non-sexist fashion (Wild Flower, Dr. Chakwas, Wynne, etc.) when they aren't writing the characters as love interests, but the second they decide a character will have a romance subplot they go into full derp mode.

 

[omega 616]

The only games I think do it right are bioware ones, I am not some bioware fanboy but there females are pretty awesome!

I love Jack and Morrigan, the other females aren't bad either. They are just like the males, they dress a little more revealing but don't females IRL do that? There are pure bitches and badass's like Morrigan and Jack but there are also hopeless romantics (leliana), determined but kinda cool ones (Miranda, Tali).

Bolded: probably not the best choice of terminology.

I think that Bioware writing tends to reflect a variety of sexist notions whenever they write a given female character as a love interest. They do write female characters in a non-sexist fashion (Wild Flower, Dr. Chakwas, Wynne, etc.) when they aren't writing the characters as love interests, but the second they decide a character will have a romance subplot they go into full derp mode.

Why is it not the best terminology? Morrigan disapproves everything that Satan wouldn't do and Jack snipes at you like crazy when you first meet her.

I dunno as far as I know Tali was a love interest and her character wasn't bad, her clothes are tight as hell though.

 

[Kahunaburger]

The only games I think do it right are bioware ones, I am not some bioware fanboy but there females are pretty awesome!

I love Jack and Morrigan, the other females aren't bad either. They are just like the males, they dress a little more revealing but don't females IRL do that? There are pure bitches and badass's like Morrigan and Jack but there are also hopeless romantics (leliana), determined but kinda cool ones (Miranda, Tali).

Bolded: probably not the best choice of terminology.

I think that Bioware writing tends to reflect a variety of sexist notions whenever they write a given female character as a love interest. They do write female characters in a non-sexist fashion (Wild Flower, Dr. Chakwas, Wynne, etc.) when they aren't writing the characters as love interests, but the second they decide a character will have a romance subplot they go into full derp mode.

Why is it not the best terminology? Morrigan disapproves everything that Satan wouldn't do and Jack snipes at you like crazy when you first meet her.

I dunno as far as I know Tali was a love interest and her character wasn't bad, her clothes are tight as hell though.

Tali's character essentially derails into doormat territory when her love subplot starts, because apparently Bioware's worried that the neckbeards won't be attracted to her unless she hero-worships and is completely dependent on their player-character.

 

[MomoElektra]

It's kind of weird when you stop and think that the only game franchise currently out that caters to all demographics equally by allowing you to customize the appearance and personalities of the characters is... The Sims. Yeah, they all still sound like white people on quaaludes, but still. Some people don't even consider it a game, yet it's one of EA's biggest cash cows and it's also the most inclusive to all demographics. And while correlation does not equal causation, I think it's worth looking into the possibility that said inclusiveness might be a contributing factor to the franchise's success.

Absolutely. I still think this is also what made ME such a great success with casual gamers (I have to consider myself one of them): The illusion of being able to customize, the illusion of actual choice. And control, of course.

I didn't have the same experience playing DE:HR. I liked it, but for all it's great points, I expected more. This "more" is, in my opinion, the subtlety of that kind of choice/control.

Someone up thread said that people tend to customize according to their race, and I think they are right. I never chose a black character, because I am not black. I could if I wanted to. I think it is important to include as many possibilities of character choice as possible, because not having those possibilities reinforces real life gender/race/sexuality/whatever bias.

So in a way stuff in games can hurt real people.

And it's really stupid of game producers not to cash in on those other demographics.
It's not as if those demographics just hopped into existence yesterday.
If they make games customizable in this respect producers don't have to think of every detail. They can leave this, as it should be, to the person playing the game.

 

[MomoElektra]

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

 

[Subaltern]

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.

 

[loc978]

I thought it was funny... I looked at the title and essentially felt "color me intrigued"... because I hadn't seen such. Then I looked at the titles mentioned.

Assassins Creed 3
The Witcher
Kingdoms of Amalur
Risen 2

I haven't even considered playing one of those games. The Witcher quite specifically because of the reputation for childish misogyny (some of the rest of it sounds passable, but I'm not into having an RPG throw sex at me like that), but the others... couldn't stand the game mechanics of the first title, one that screams Generic Fantasy Game #972,875,051... and... a pirate game I haven't heard of. Huh.

I guess I'm a gaming hippie, only paying attention to progressive (or gender-neutral) titles.

 

[MomoElektra]

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.

Yes.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

In the opening cutscene of the original game, his asking price for saving the girl was some money and a night of sex with her. That tends to rub people the wrong way.

Ahahahaha really? Really? Did they change that for the Enhanced Edition, or did I just miss it?

Because that's pretty funny.

Terrible, of course. So terrible it's hilarious.

<youtube=qtrKfZqokl4>

First thirty seconds. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, but what are you going to think when the narrator says "It was enough to spend the night with her from dusk 'til dawn"? It's certainly what I thought he was going for.

Not even close. Geralt spent the night with her from dusk until dawn laying on the lid of the coffin she was trapped in in monster form until dawn when she would return to being a normal human being and the fight would end. Nothing sexual about the opening cutscene.

You go through the exact same scene (this time, through actual gameplay) in the game as well in Chapter 3 when you have to do it all over again, and there is definitely no sex involved.

 

[wench]

The sex cards aren't exactly a very... mature way of handling all the sex Geralt has though. When the first one came up, my thought was, "The developers think this is what I want?" I'm no prude. In fact I'm actually okay with polyamory. But I'm in my late-20's for fuck's sake. Is it really too much to ask that I not be handed a bonus that seems to assume I'm a 13-year-old who just figured out that boobs are great? It feels more like a pretense toward maturity.

Personally, I saw it more as a sort of achievement system. And as far as things to get for being completionist, that's the most interesting version of awards I've seen. When I heard about them, I'll admit, I had the same sort of reaction as you. That said, by the time I got my first one, I totally loved them - and a lot of them were really quite beautiful.

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex? As a side note - it's not something they added on for the game, the sex is a definite carry-over from the books, and it's fairly well rationalized in there. I highly recommend them, by the way, especially if you can read another language (most of them aren't in English yet).

 

[The Madman]

First thirty seconds. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, but what are you going to think when the narrator says "It was enough to spend the night with her from dusk 'til dawn"? It's certainly what I thought he was going for.

That video is actually portraying a short story from the book 'The Last Wish', and having read said story I can assure you it's not sexual in any way. He essentially just has to keep her preoccupied and unable to return to her sleep till the sun rises, later on in the game you have to lift that very same curse using the same method and are given the choice of just deliberately killing the person or baiting them, running around, and just generally trying to avoid combat till the sun rises.

You're reading wayyyyyy too far into this. The original Witcher has it's bad points; those stupid cards for example (Which thankfully aren't in Witcher 2) but that definitely isn't one of them.

Sir, you're fuckin' awesome.

Spoiler: Here's a cookie

Why thank you, it looks delicious!

 

[MomoElektra]

Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?

As someone who hasn't played the game: A system that lets you do just that but being something else than a white, straight male?