Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

[MomoElektra]

snip

What? I am hurting real people by calling two game characters bitches? I get the feeling you want to be offended, like one of those people who writes letters of complaint to TV stations 'cos they saw the original XBOX advert of the guy flying into his grave.

Yes. You are hurting real people.
If you call characters, real or not, bitches, for liking them or not liking them, you enforce the same thing in real life (reward/punishment for certain types of behaviour).

It's not that much of a stretch, really. Imagine if much of modern tv were nazi propganda.
You'd not claim that this propaganda, shown on tv and newspapers, only hurt the tv and the ink, would you?

 

[Kahunaburger]

Political correctness is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, certain other religions, beliefs or ideologies, disability, and age-related contexts, and, as purported by the term, doing so to an excessive extent. buzzword, much beloved by Fox News and people who don't like it when society tells them not to be bigoted.

Fixed for you.

Oh no, I hope I don't offend those pixels. Those pixels who are nothing, they cannot hear or be offended.

How do you possibly offend the unoffendable?

Not only is it an insult, it's an insult .... the meaning of insult is a degrading slur. You're explaining an explanation.

Would you use a slur against black people to refer to the demoman from Hat Fortress 2? No? Same principle.

 

[Meight08]

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.

Oh no, I hope I don't offend those pixels. Those pixels who are nothing, they cannot hear or be offended.

How do you possibly offend the unoffendable?

Not only is it an insult, it's an insult .... the meaning of insult is a degrading slur. You're explaining an explanation.

But the people playing those games are not pixels. They have feelings, which get hurt, and some others of them might feel incouraged in their sexist/racist/andsoon beliefs.

That's a bad thing. This hurts real people.

Have you even played the witcher 2?
all the woman geralt can have sex with are normal human characters.
Well except the elf and the succubus

Normal? You do not realize that there might be a problem with what you consider "normal women"?
Like, say, not realizing that women are people and such don't really operate according to simple stereotypes based on gender*?

*Aside from the ones that get pushed on them with sugar/cane by society

I dont mean it like that!
I mean normal as in non hyper sexualised and acting like a normal woman would.

 

[Chemical Alia]

As a lot of other people have said, I think it's a problem of females customers being completely ignored and given no consideration in a game's development, which often results in discouraging women from buying certain games. When a game has so much juvenile pandering or awful characters that it breaks your immersion while playing it, I can understand someone coming to the conclusion that the game wasn't meant for them. Which is a shame, because the game might otherwise offer a lot of fun. It becomes a matter of how much you're able to tolerate the nagging feeling of exclusion.

I do think that more women getting involved in game development and influencing design/story decisions is the right way to address this problem, but it's definitely not going to happen overnight. Even if you've got a great concept art portfolio (for example) and you want to use your skills to make a positive impact, a game studio's not going to hire you unless your body of work is already in line with their style and IPs. You need a lot of experience, and the studio's willingness to explore new ideas. More and more women are working in the game industry every year, but I think it's going to take time before any major shift in how we design female characters is going to occur.

I'm an environment artist, and on the project I work on, that's the way I would like to keep it for now. I have very little interest in the character designs (especially the female ones, with a more or less "design by ability to attract hot cosplayers" approach), but I have to admit that I'm in the minority among the other artists, and the community responds to them well. I wouldn't want to work on character art that I think is retarded or makes me uncomfortable, but I do try to voice my opinions and offer my perspective and best advice whenever I can.

 

[wench]

Because the source doesn't allow for it? Relevant point, doesn't change anything concerning the sexism, though.

I have yet to hear anyone actually point out what in the game is sexist, despite a lot of people saying it is. Can someone give me something a bit more concrete? I'm willing to concede the point, but I need a bit more to go on than there being a lot of sex and the protagonist being male.

I haven't played the game, but I'm not really talking about just The Witcher, but your Tolkien reference.

I'm not sure if I'm totally misunderstanding you here, but I don't see how having a character be male instead of female in either situation would be sexist. Having fewer women characters can be a definite expression of sexism, or a sexist society, etc... but just having men be in books is not sexist.

 

[MomoElektra]

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

Why is it not the best terminology?

Because it's an insult?

Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.

Oh no, I hope I don't offend those pixels. Those pixels who are nothing, they cannot hear or be offended.

How do you possibly offend the unoffendable?

Not only is it an insult, it's an insult .... the meaning of insult is a degrading slur. You're explaining an explanation.

But the people playing those games are not pixels. They have feelings, which get hurt, and some others of them might feel incouraged in their sexist/racist/andsoon beliefs.

That's a bad thing. This hurts real people.

Have you even played the witcher 2?
all the woman geralt can have sex with are normal human characters.
Well except the elf and the succubus

Normal? You do not realize that there might be a problem with what you consider "normal women"?
Like, say, not realizing that women are people and such don't really operate according to simple stereotypes based on gender*?

*Aside from the ones that get pushed on them with sugar/cane by society

I dont mean it like that!
I mean normal as in non hyper sexualised and acting like a normal woman would.

Okay... I am inclined to believe you... for the sake of argument.
I'm just not sure you can really distinguish between real hypersexuality and alleged one (doesn't really make that much of a difference either, though).

One major appeal for Geralt in The Witcher, considering it takes place in some medieval like times, is his infertility, yes? The fact that sexwithhim=nopregnancy?

Yes?

You do know that the Catholic Church and others have made a case against women for being too sexual with having pregnancy and birth as a just "punishment" for ages? And not just in the past, bur very much right now?

And don't you think that a game that makes it easy for women of diverse status in life, be it whores or princesses, having sex-without-consequences just because it mainly might be sex-without-consequences, just reinforces the belief that women are just sex maniacs who just don't have sex with you for being a non-alpha male?

This hurts real women because it makes real men feel that women are evil for witholding sex to which they feel entitled to from them.

And this is just one of several possible examples.

 

[omega 616]

snip

No, I'm not hurting real people, society is. You act a certain way and do certain things you get called the appropriate thing.

If you choose to take that thing as an insult, that is your call.

Would you use a slur against black people to refer to the demoman from Hat Fortress 2? No? Same principle.

Why wouldn't I? If I offended a bunch of pixels an angry Scottish black guy isn't going to show up at my door with a massive sword and a shield with a spike on it!

Am I a racist? No, do I say racist things? If they can, why can't I? Isn't that racist? Excluding one group of people from doing something that others can do.

 

[MomoElektra]

I'm not sure if I'm totally misunderstanding you here, but I don't see how having a character be male instead of female in either situation would be sexist. Having fewer women characters can be a definite expression of sexism, or a sexist society, etc... but just having men be in books is not sexist.

... but just having men be in a book is not sexist? Of course it is. It's just that in our societies the (white, straight) male is the standard so it's really some work to recognize it.

LotR could have just as well worked with a mixed Fellowship of the Ring. But Tolkien was from a time where females were considered to be, if at all, side characters. So that's what he made of them (and he made them well, but still just that and little more).

It's still a terrific story and it's still sexist.

Having a character male itself does not make a character/story sexist. But having the character be only male (because that's how it's perceived to be normal) is very much sexist.

snip

No, I'm not hurting real people, society is. You act a certain way and do certain things you get called the appropriate thing.

If you choose to take that thing as an insult, that is your call.

Are you not part of society? Are you not, in fact, a part of one very influental part of society? Are you not, in fact, part of the very part of society that gets to define what is appropriate and what is not?

Privilege is a damn hard thing to see (believe me, I know and I still make mistakes).
I don't fault you for not seeing it.

 

[wench]

Yes. You are hurting real people.
If you call characters, real or not, bitches, for liking them or not liking them, you enforce the same thing in real life (reward/punishment for certain types of behaviour).

It's not that much of a stretch, really. Imagine if much of modern tv were nazi propganda.
You'd not claim that this propaganda, shown on tv and newspapers, only hurt the tv and the ink, would you?

Look, I'm a massive feminist, but calling a character a ***** in a positive manner doesn't actually hurt real women (if you think it does, feel free to link to the research showing that - and yes, I mean research and not "literary criticism"), and more importantly does not even remotely have a parallel to the effect of nazi propaganda on society. Give me a break. Some guy on the street, screaming "you stupid *****" at his girlfriend? Total sexist, totally affects people around him. Those two are a loooong way apart.

Jack is an awesome *****. Feel free not to like that term, but you're going to have a hard time showing how I'm oppressing all women everywhere by saying that. I mean, how do you feel about ***** magazine? It's hardly a tool of the patriarchy.

 

[MomoElektra]

Yes. You are hurting real people.
If you call characters, real or not, bitches, for liking them or not liking them, you enforce the same thing in real life (reward/punishment for certain types of behaviour).

It's not that much of a stretch, really. Imagine if much of modern tv were nazi propganda.
You'd not claim that this propaganda, shown on tv and newspapers, only hurt the tv and the ink, would you?

Look, I'm a massive feminist, but calling a character a ***** in a positive manner doesn't actually hurt real women (if you think it does, feel free to link to the research showing that - and yes, I mean research and not "literary criticism"),.

I have a hard time believing you because if you were a massive feminist you would leave feeling hurt by the word to those who are affected by it.

and more importantly does not even remotely have a parallel to the effect of nazi propaganda on society. Give me a break. Some guy on the street, screaming "you stupid *****" at his girlfriend? Total sexist, totally affects people around him. Those two are a loooong way apart.

Jack is an awesome *****. Feel free not to like that term, but you're going to have a hard time showing how I'm oppressing all women everywhere by saying that. I mean, how do you feel about ***** magazine? It's hardly a tool of the patriarchy.

I'm not showing you are opressing women. I never tried to do that. I try to show you that you are part of oppressing women, even if you maybe don't want to.

I see you missed my part about the "bad words" being used by a marginalized group as a means of empowerment.

 

[Meight08]

Political correctness is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, certain other religions, beliefs or ideologies, disability, and age-related contexts, and, as purported by the term, doing so to an excessive extent.

Yes i know what it means.

Gold star for going to Wikipedia. Now, since we can sum up political correctness as just being nice to people... why do you hate this exactly?

Meh, you have fun in your way, and I'll have it in mine. =) Actually, a fucking achievement system is a brilliant description for it!

I'm just of the opinion that sex is something natural, part of every day life. Sensationalizing it just feels like cheap pandering. I won't lie, I enjoy the occasional bit of fan service myself. But to use an earlier metaphor, I enjoy it in the same way I do junk food. It's nice to have now and again, but it's not really good for me in huge doses.

I think that's a fair reading of your playthrough - I'm just not sure that's the reason Bioware wrote Tali the way they did.

I don't disagree, but I don't always put a lot of stock in authorial intent. It could be my own egomania at work, but the reality of the game is how I roleplay it in my head. They're giving me the chance to tell my own story (within limitations, obviously), so I end up turning my interpretations into canon based on how I believe this incarnation of my character sees the world.

...I just realized that there's no way I can say any of that without sounding like a pretentious twit. I guess my point is that I'm not saying you're wrong, and there's always room for improvement, but I feel that individual experiences count for something as well. Even if authorial intent doesn't match the interpretation, there's something to be said for the latter.

Its not just being nice its not being allowed to express certain opinions because saying it will hurt someone's feeling.
If i say i dont understand why the a man would want it in the ass im homophobic.
If i say i say i dont like it when woman want a developer to make a new model re-record every word of dialogue and make every animation again just so you can play a female characters.

Do you understand that.
Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

"Freedom of speech" does not, and has not ever meant "Freedom from consequences". Just as you are free to express your bigoted opinions, so are others free to call you out on them. If that hurts your feelings and makes you feel defensive, maybe you should engage in some hearty self-reflection, instead of trying to invoke "Freedom of Speech" every time something stupid you've said goes over like a lead balloon.

 

[Meight08]

Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

"Freedom of speech" does not, and has not ever meant "Freedom from consequences". Just as you are free to express your bigoted opinions, so are others free to call you out on them. If that hurts your feelings and makes you feel defensive, maybe you should engage in some hearty self-reflection, instead of trying to invoke "Freedom of Speech" every time something stupid you've said goes over like a lead balloon.

How am i a bigot?
i just made examples.

 

[mrdude2010]

No. Look at how dedicated they are at making money- they won't even change anything in their call of duty games. They're not going to deliberately cut out half of their potential customer base.

some more specific responses:

AC3- For one thing, yes. A Native American would be much less conspicuous than a woman dressed in a way she'd need to be to do assassin's creed stuff. At the time, Native Americans along the East Coast were semi-integrated into society, at least to some extent. For another thing, you're playing a specific ancestor. Seeing a menu pop up saying "Please select your ancestor's gender" is a little flow breaking if the entire game isn't based around you being your own individual character.

The Witcher- No, he wouldn't, because a womanizer is much more socially acceptable than a racist. That's society, not the game devs.

Kingdom of Amalur- that's just laziness on the dev's part- instead of writing two separate scripts they just copied the script for the male character. Do they force you to marry the female to continue the quest if you start as a male? I haven't played this one, but it sounds like laziness rather than sexism.

Risen 2- Again, it's hard work redoing all of the animations for a female character. Probably laziness. Although it is much less excusable here, because of the whole "nameless hero" thing.

 

[MomoElektra]

Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

"Freedom of speech" does not, and has not ever meant "Freedom from consequences". Just as you are free to express your bigoted opinions, so are others free to call you out on them. If that hurts your feelings and makes you feel defensive, maybe you should engage in some hearty self-reflection, instead of trying to invoke "Freedom of Speech" every time something stupid you've said goes over like a lead balloon.

You're my new hero*. Too bad derailingfordummies.com is down, I sure could have used the research.


*one of several here, actually. You restored my faith in humanity.

 

[wench]

... but just having men be in a book is not sexist? Of course it is. It's just that in our societies the (white, straight) male is the standard so it's really some work to recognize it.

LotR could have just as well worked with a mixed Fellowship of the Ring. But Tolkien was from a time where females were considered to be, if at all, side characters. So that's what he made of them (and he made them well, but still just that and little more).

It's still a terrific story and it's still sexist.

Having a character male itself does not make a character/story sexist. But having the character be only male (because that's how it's perceived to be normal) is very much sexist.

Sorry, what I was saying was that the existence of men in a book is not inherently sexist, not that a book with only men in it wasn't sexist. Personally, if a book is handling women characters well for its' time period, I don't tend to stick it in the "sexist" category. He made an effort to handle women characters well within the context of society at the time, and that works for me.

I think perhaps that I just require a bit more malice or intention to stick it in that category.

 

[omega 616]

Why wouldn't I? If I offended a bunch of pixels an angry Scottish black guy isn't going to show up at my door with a massive sword and a shield with a spike on it!

So your argument is that it's only wrong if you're in danger of being punished for your actions?

Am I a racist? No, do I say racist things? If they can, why can't I? Isn't that racist? Excluding one group of people from doing something that others can do.

So you want to be able to shout racist slurs in public and not get punched in the dick for it?

No, I think it is about context.

If a black guy says to another black guy and say "sup [racial slur]", as they stereotypically do, then that's cool.

If a black guy is pissed off at another black guy and says "fuck you, [racial slur]" then that is not cool.

Why is it suddenly racist if I, as a white guy, say to a black person "hi, [racial slur]"?

I don't say racial slurs out in public 'cos not everybody thinks like I do, so I would be going against the accepted norm, which in this case a group of black people will be the shit out of me, loads of racists will cheer me and loads of level headed people will loathe me .... while I should have followed the "do as I say, not as I do" line of thinking.

 

[mrdude2010]

Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

"Freedom of speech" does not, and has not ever meant "Freedom from consequences". Just as you are free to express your bigoted opinions, so are others free to call you out on them. If that hurts your feelings and makes you feel defensive, maybe you should engage in some hearty self-reflection, instead of trying to invoke "Freedom of Speech" every time something stupid you've said goes over like a lead balloon.

How am i a bigot?
i just made examples.

I think he meant "you" generally rather than you specifically. He is right, though, "fighting words" including hate speech and "offensive" material aren't covered under free speech. What exactly constitutes those exceptions is a different debate entirely.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

How am i a bigot?

i just made examples.

You're expressing bigoted opinions. If they're not actually your opinions, clearly you are not a bigot. I called the OPINIONS bigoted. Unless you're owning them, feel free to go about your day.

 

[MomoElektra]

Sorry, what I was saying was that the existence of men in a book is not inherently sexist,

No one said so.

not that a book with only men in it wasn't sexist. Personally, if a book is handling women characters well for its' time period, I don't tend to stick it in the "sexist" category. .

Why? The time period may have been sexist (very likely). Why rule that out?

He made an effort to handle women characters well within the context of society at the time, and that works for me. .

That's okay. There is a difference between sexist and misogynist. Sometimes. There is also, of course, a difference between showing sexism and being sexist (although with some fanboys and fangirls that divide is very...slim).

I think perhaps that I just require a bit more malice or intention to stick it in that category.

That's alright, too.

Edit: I can't get the quotes to work. Sigh.