Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

[Phasmal]

If i say i say i dont like it when woman want a developer to make a new model re-record every word of dialogue and make every animation again just so you can play a female characters.

Why would you not like that? It doesn't inconveniance you and it allows a game to perhaps be enjoyed more by half the population?
Is that a bad thing? Besides, the gaming industry is up to its eyeballs in samey looking dudes.

 

[Meight08]

Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

"Freedom of speech" does not, and has not ever meant "Freedom from consequences". Just as you are free to express your bigoted opinions, so are others free to call you out on them. If that hurts your feelings and makes you feel defensive, maybe you should engage in some hearty self-reflection, instead of trying to invoke "Freedom of Speech" every time something stupid you've said goes over like a lead balloon.

How am i a bigot?
i just made examples.

I think he meant "you" generally rather than you specifically. He is right, though, "fighting words" including hate speech and "offensive" material aren't covered under free speech. What exactly constitutes those exceptions is a different debate entirely.

I am talking about the things that or not hate speech.
Im talking about being called racist because you theoretically say to a black friend of your after you accidentaly broke a lamp of his.
"If i bring you a kfc bucket will you forgive me?"
Just innocent jokes that are just that jokes

 

[wench]

Yes. You are hurting real people.
If you call characters, real or not, bitches, for liking them or not liking them, you enforce the same thing in real life (reward/punishment for certain types of behaviour).

It's not that much of a stretch, really. Imagine if much of modern tv were nazi propganda.
You'd not claim that this propaganda, shown on tv and newspapers, only hurt the tv and the ink, would you?

Look, I'm a massive feminist, but calling a character a ***** in a positive manner doesn't actually hurt real women (if you think it does, feel free to link to the research showing that - and yes, I mean research and not "literary criticism"),.

I have a hard time believing you because if you were a massive feminist you would leave feeling hurt by the word to those who are affected by it.

Absolute nonsense. Being a feminist does not require that I take offense on behalf of people who don't need me to - how arrogant would that be of me? I can provide references if you need to check my feminist/queer (bi)/union/socialist credentials. The fact that a word can be used to hurt people does not mean that I have to give in to that, and it doesn't mean that I need to be hurt by it.

I see you missed my part about the "bad words" being used by a marginalized group as a means of empowerment.

I didn't miss it at all, I just don't think that this is entirely a valid argument. One of the things about reclaiming words like "*****" or "slut" or "dyke" is that when the reclamation is successful, the words start to lose their power to hurt the people in that group. After that, I'm totally cool with people using them in a positive way - why on earth not? That's the whole point of that reclamation.

 

[MomoElektra]

If i say i say i dont like it when woman want a developer to make a new model re-record every word of dialogue and make every animation again just so you can play a female characters.

Why would you not like that? It doesn't inconveniance you and it allows a game to perhaps be enjoyed more by half the population?
Is that a bad thing? Besides, the gaming industry is up to its eyeballs in samey looking dudes.

There seems to be this notion in somme not-marginalized groups (or certain individuals from those groups), that giving rights/options/possibilities to marginalized groups takes away their rights/options/possibilities as if it were a zero-sum-game.

 

[Meight08]

Its not just being nice its not being allowed to express certain opinions because saying it will hurt someone's feeling.
If i say i dont understand why the a man would want it in the ass im homophobic.
If i say i say i dont like it when woman want a developer to make a new model re-record every word of dialogue and make every animation again just so you can play a female characters.

Do you understand that.
Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

Oh, I understand perfectly. You want to say whatever you want and not be held responsible for the consequences.

You looked up the definition of political correctness, but you apparently failed to look up what free speech actually means in the US, so let me explain it to you. The first amendment simply states, "Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech." None of us are Congress, nor are we trying to pass legislation. In fact, I am exercising my freedom of speech by calling you a myopic, uninformed, insensitive, egocentric ignoramus.

Maybe you should just suck it up and learn to exercise some basic human empathy. Just because you have a thought in your head does not automatically mean that you should voice it or that that thought has any merit.

All my examples are freaking theoretical!

 

[Meight08]

If i say i say i dont like it when woman want a developer to make a new model re-record every word of dialogue and make every animation again just so you can play a female characters.

Why would you not like that? It doesn't inconveniance you and it allows a game to perhaps be enjoyed more by half the population?
Is that a bad thing? Besides, the gaming industry is up to its eyeballs in samey looking dudes.

Im saying it theoretically.
If a character can be a woman to fit the setting it should be done.
But the thing is if it cant or the dev does not have the time or the money it should not be forced on them

 

[AgentCooper]

I think the problem is getting somewhat better with how female characters are written and appearing in video games. It still needs improvement.


OFF TOPIC Speakings:

With that said we also need to raise awareness with Racial and GLBT topics and the portrayals and how these characters act and speak. This is a problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[MomoElektra]

Yes. You are hurting real people.
If you call characters, real or not, bitches, for liking them or not liking them, you enforce the same thing in real life (reward/punishment for certain types of behaviour).

It's not that much of a stretch, really. Imagine if much of modern tv were nazi propganda.
You'd not claim that this propaganda, shown on tv and newspapers, only hurt the tv and the ink, would you?

Look, I'm a massive feminist, but calling a character a ***** in a positive manner doesn't actually hurt real women (if you think it does, feel free to link to the research showing that - and yes, I mean research and not "literary criticism"),.

I have a hard time believing you because if you were a massive feminist you would leave feeling hurt by the word to those who are affected by it.

Absolute nonsense. Being a feminist does not require that I take offense on behalf of people who don't need me to - how arrogant would that be of me? I can provide references if you need to check my feminist/queer (bi)/union/socialist credentials. The fact that a word can be used to hurt people does not mean that I have to give in to that, and it doesn't mean that I need to be hurt by it. ")

You misunderstood me. Sorry, I'll try again.
Being a feminist does of course not require you to take offense for someone. It does take you to not define for others what can be taken as offensive.

How is you being not hurt by something relevant to how others might or might not be hurt by it?

In fact, the very notion that you make this "all about you" and how hurt you feel or don't feel shows me you still have something to learn about feminism. Or any other kind of social movement that doesn't involve you.

I see you missed my part about the "bad words" being used by a marginalized group as a means of empowerment.

I didn't miss it at all, I just don't think that this is entirely a valid argument. One of the things about reclaiming words like "*****" or "slut" or "dyke" is that when the reclamation is successful, the words start to lose their power to hurt the people in that group. After that, I'm totally cool with people using them in a positive way - why on earth not? That's the whole point of that reclamation.

They lose their power for the members of that marginalized group! If you don't belong to it, changes are good you are part of the oppressing group!

The problem is not alone with the word, but with the one using it!

 

[Kahunaburger]

Would you use a slur against black people to refer to the demoman from Hat Fortress 2? No? Same principle.

Why wouldn't I? If I offended a bunch of pixels an angry Scottish black guy isn't going to show up at my door with a massive sword and a shield with a spike on it!

Am I a racist? No, do I say racist things? If they can, why can't I? Isn't that racist? Excluding one group of people from doing something that others can do.

I think that's a fair reading of your playthrough - I'm just not sure that's the reason Bioware wrote Tali the way they did.

I don't disagree, but I don't always put a lot of stock in authorial intent. It could be my own egomania at work, but the reality of the game is how I roleplay it in my head. They're giving me the chance to tell my own story (within limitations, obviously), so I end up turning my interpretations into canon based on how I believe this incarnation of my character sees the world.

...I just realized that there's no way I can say any of that without sounding like a pretentious twit. I guess my point is that I'm not saying you're wrong, and there's always room for improvement, but I feel that individual experiences count for something as well. Even if authorial intent doesn't match the interpretation, there's something to be said for the latter.

I think that in a form of narrative that varies from participant to participant as much as an RPG (or visual novel with shooter segments, or whatever), it's 100% possible for something to come off as problematic given one set of decisions and interpretations, but not come off as problematic given another set of decisions and interpretations. Plus, with something as subjective as "is the writing for this character sexist?" I think that reasonable people can absolutely disagree.

 

[David Bjur]

Erg, I hope I'm not turning into some sort of feminist Zeel

I know this is a plot development that has come out of nowhere and implies lore that otherwise did not previously exist but uh... I am sorry but, "There must always be a Zeel."

Now pick up his helmet and sit on his throne. You have been chosen.

(If you get the reference I has cookies!)

I got the reference, it's from World of Warcraft right?

OT: I'm pretty sure that most game devs are men, and I suppose it's easier to form a character out of own experience and familiarity. And it's probably hard for them to form new characters of the opposite sex since the gaming industry is full of virgins hasn't really that many good examples yet that can show the new devs how it should be done. It'll be a really slow process.

 

[Phasmal]

If i say i say i dont like it when woman want a developer to make a new model re-record every word of dialogue and make every animation again just so you can play a female characters.

Why would you not like that? It doesn't inconveniance you and it allows a game to perhaps be enjoyed more by half the population?
Is that a bad thing? Besides, the gaming industry is up to its eyeballs in samey looking dudes.

There seems to be this notion in somme not-marginalized groups (or certain individuals from those groups), that giving rights/options/possibilities to marginalized groups takes away their rights/options/possibilities as if it were a zero-sum-game.

Yes, sadly that is an attitude I have run into before. Doesn't make much sense to me. =(

If i say i say i dont like it when woman want a developer to make a new model re-record every word of dialogue and make every animation again just so you can play a female characters.

Why would you not like that? It doesn't inconveniance you and it allows a game to perhaps be enjoyed more by half the population?
Is that a bad thing? Besides, the gaming industry is up to its eyeballs in samey looking dudes.

Im saying it theoretically.
If a character can be a woman to fit the setting it should be done.
But the thing is if it cant or the dev does not have the time or the money it should not be forced on them

If we can have a world where its perfectly normal for ogres and demons to be there, I'm pretty sure people shouldn't ***** if we can also imagine that they may also treat women like they are equal.

I agree it may not be possible to put a female character in every game, and thats not even what people are arguing for. But when companies that practically piss money are pretty much ignoring female audiences, its not a good thing.

 

[omega 616]

snip

Yeah, that sure is a pretty picture, is it wrong though?

Me and my friends in college used to say all kinds of racist things about every race, doesn't mean we wear white bedding, have swastikas tattooed on us or burn crosses on black folks lawns.

This is off topic anyway, it's about sexism, not racism.

 

[wench]

Flimsy argument. I write comedy and there are certain places I wouldn't tell certain jokes. In college, I had an inner circle of friends in which we constantly ribbed each other over our various ethnicities and the respective stereotypes. I'm Slovak and one guy was Irish, so the alcoholic jokes were fast and furious. One guy was gay and the gay jokes were always there. But we didn't dare tell those jokes to people outside of our group because we agreed to relax the taboos in our own company. But total strangers didn't make that agreement with us, so we kept those jokes to ourselves around other people.

On this topic, one of the things I've found really difficult to deal with since I've moved to Canada was the level of racially-based yet good-natured teasing that goes on between friends here - more openly than what you're describing. Freaked me right out at first. I've adjusted a bit since then - I still avoid doing it myself, admittedly, and I'm really sensitive as to watching to try and make sure that things aren't crossing the line. It's hard to move from a total avoidance of race to a celebration/roast of it, but I do think that this way is a lot better than what I was doing before.

 

[MomoElektra]

Me and my friends in college used to say all kinds of racist things about every race, doesn't mean we wear white bedding, have swastikas tattooed on us or burn crosses on black folks lawns.

These friends of yours consist of several people, right?

Some might be of the "burn/hang them" persuasion. Others might not. You might not know, because nowadays it is, for good reason, dangerous to say that.

But... think... the racists of the burn/hang them persuasion... do they feel disgouraced by your antics of those days or do they feel encouraged?

Congratulations. You have successfully contributed to racism.

Now the question is, do you care or not? Because I don't think you care.

 

[Fappy]

Erg, I hope I'm not turning into some sort of feminist Zeel

I know this is a plot development that has come out of nowhere and implies lore that otherwise did not previously exist but uh... I am sorry but, "There must always be a Zeel."

Now pick up his helmet and sit on his throne. You have been chosen.

(If you get the reference I has cookies!)

I got the reference, it's from World of Warcraft right?

OT: I'm pretty sure that most game devs are men, and I suppose it's easier to form a character out of own experience and familiarity. And it's probably hard for them to form new characters of the opposite sex since the gaming industry is full of virgins hasn't really that many good examples yet that can show the new devs how it should be done. It'll be a really slow process.

Yes! YOU GETS COOKIES!

 

[Kahunaburger]

snip

Yeah, that sure is a pretty picture, is it wrong though?

Me and my friends in college used to say all kinds of racist things about every race, doesn't mean we wear white bedding, have swastikas tattooed on us or burn crosses on black folks lawns.

This is off topic anyway, it's about sexism, not racism.

They both fit under the umbrella of people hating each other for no apparent reason, and in your case, privelaged kids unthinkingly contributing to the problem.

 

[Something Amyss]

Assassins Creed 3 said that a female protagonist wouldn't fit into the period of the game (yet a Native American would be acceptable and wouldn't rouse suspicion wherever he went?).

Actually, this is sort of historically accurate. Natives may not have had free reign, but they certainly did have more freedom than women in a lot of ways important to this series. Especially if he's only half native, as I was led to believe.

Of course, this game series is far from anachronism free....

The Witcher of course has Geralt whose misogyny is accepted because of the books. Meanwhile if developers made a Conan game would he be portrayed as a racist?

Can't talk there. Don't follow.

Kingdoms of Amalur treats the female character like she is a man (constant flirts from female characters) to the extent where she is forced to marry a women if she wants to complete a quest line, there is no option to just say 'No' and complete the quest that way.

I'd throw in Saints Row 2/3 to that list. Similar scenario. The genders switch for the protagonist only.

I personally find this amusing, but then again, this is from the perspective of someone who doesn't really give a damn about relationships in video games.

Risen 2 has dismissed a playable female out of hand even though their protagonist is 'The nameless hero' and plenty of women were involved in piracy.

I'd be syrprised if, historically there were "plenty" of women pirates in this sense. One of the stauncher naval traditions was the superstition that women on a boat were bad luck.

However, this one's pretty interesting. I was under the impression there was a female lead, but I haven't followed the game very closely. However, we ARE talking about a fantasy-style pirate game. Even if there were no female pirates in history, the question becomes "so what?"

I can't see any reasons to exclude a female lead, except what I'll get to in a second.

Sometimes I wonder whether we will ever be accepted as part of gaming or the very excuse of 'men are our main demographic' is going to discourage women from playing games and therefore not allow the demographic to balance out.

It doesn't seem to be discouraging anyone, honestly.

I know that I'm in the minority here and I'm probably going to get shouted down pretty badly but please think about what it's like to grow up loving a past-time that no one seems to want you to be involved in.

Passtime, or sometimes accepted as pass-time/pass-time.

Anyway, nitpick aside, here we go:

I don't think this is systematic or intentional. A lot of unintentional bias springs up, and it can be harmful overall. This is why we should pay attention to and discuss these things. I dislike the fact that issues of race, sexuality and gender are frequently shouted down, because they really need to be discussed.

So when I say there is no intentional bias, don't take as me saying there is no bias. There clearly is, and a fair chunk. But are they actively and deliberately discouraging women? I don't think so. More than ever, games are being broadened to try and appeal to every market. In games with a creatable character, there's almost no excuse to not include options to make a female character. Or an (insert other group here).

The main reason I think they don't is the same one I was going to allude to:

Laziness.

It may not literally be laziness, but a lot of these games require new elements for female characters, most specifically dialogue, which has to be recorded. This is why I think Kingdoms of Amalur has all the women flirting: Otherwise, they might have to do more voice acting. Similarly, if you play through Saints Row the Third with ANY of the dialogue choices (except maybe zombie), you will notice all the dialogue is the same except the boss'. Even the Boss will say variations that make the responses make sense, so they have to keep some level of linearity. Flirting with Shaundi, for example, or the lines wouldn't make any sense. Or, GASP HORROR, they'd have to record new lines.

I think dialogue has screwed up a lot in gaming, actually. But Most of that's not at issue here.

Assassin's Creed I'll give a little bit of a benefit of the doubt, but not much.

I think if there was an easier way to be inclusive, we'd see it. But two sets of dialogue and the like is an expenditure, and the game companies are pretty deadset against actually shelling out money unless they think it'll be profitable. Since boys are the main consumers, target boys.

There's also that other...Shall we say, touchy issue. Culturally, it's pretty much expected from women to be okay with a male lead but men not being okay with a woman lead. In short, women are expected to "deal with it," and men are expected to go "DO NOT WANT!" And that's socially fine. It's not even a gaming thing. Double standard? Yes, and I haven't even gotten into the difference between "girls liking girls" and "boys liking boys."

So given that your primary base is considered openly hostile to females and the secondary base isn't considered openly hostile to males, would you honestly want to piss off the major base to feed one that might not even appreciate it?

There's also the issue of the actual people in charge. Like leads to like. I'm pretty sure the dominance in writing and design leads to a lot of issues, not the least thinking of male protagonists.

Well, I'm all tingly. >.>

Specifically, the ideal person your average teenage boy would want to be while punching things.

Exactly, and that's the major difference in design choices. Additionally, men aren't dressed with sex in mind. They're not posed with sex in mind. Their dialogue is only read with sex in mind if it's sex with the 34DDDDD woman wearing a thong and pasties who is the love interest despite neither having personality.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

On this topic, one of the things I've found really difficult to deal with since I've moved to Canada was the level of racially-based yet good-natured teasing that goes on between friends here - more openly than what you're describing. Freaked me right out at first. I've adjusted a bit since then - I still avoid doing it myself, admittedly, and I'm really sensitive as to watching to try and make sure that things aren't crossing the line. It's hard to move from a total avoidance of race to a celebration/roast of it, but I do think that this way is a lot better than what I was doing before.

Welcome to Canada! I'm sure you'll love it here.

Have they given you your Moose yet?

 

[Kahunaburger]

Double post

 

[Yopaz]

I don't think they're deliberately doing it, at least not consciously. You'd have to be pretty stupid to want to put off 50% of the population from buying right from the get go. I can however see why some female gamers might be put off gaming or at least some aspects of it. There's definitely some undercurrent of mysogyny (sure I've spelt that wrong) in gaming, like how women gamers are still considered quirky by some men.

Yeah I got to agree with this. I would blame it more on stupidity than a deliberate attempt at alienating female audience.