Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

[Phasmal]

I find myself unable to read this in anything except a spacey surfer voice. Anyone else?

Poor girls. That's a rough stereotype. I have no idea where it came from, either.

My girlfriend loves winning. She's actually a terrible winner. Rubs it in like crazy. I fucking hate it when she wins.

Because ladies aren't competitive, we're all kittens and cakes and laundry.

I can be a bit bad when I win, but I'm probably worse when I lose. I tend to just be a bit hardheaded so I just try try try til I win.

 

[Phasmal]

I think you may be stuck in the generalisation hole. I play WoW for the exact same reason as my boyfriend; to kick some ass. I've no idea what just playing WoW for socialisation would be like, but it sounds like it would suck. In fact, I avoid socialisation sometimes in WoW cause I don't wanna deal with `You're a girl?`.. `Yep`. `A real one?` `Yeeeah?` and all that silliness.

EDIT: You can reply above if you want. Its cool.

I have wasted m played WoW for 3-4 years.

For every girl like you, there are 10 that play for the "social interaction". You know, the kind that know just enough about the game to function in a group - not exactly a "game mechanic wizard". These are the ones that play to hang out in guild chat and run instances/raids for the "social experience". Winning, losing, isn't a big deal to them. We just loss WG, OK. We just wiped 5 times in a row in a raid, OK. Gear isn't a big deal to them, gear for them is a means to an end - to enable them joining the guild in raids - rather than the goal.

Snipped out the first bit. I don't think anyone here is arguing for games to be geared towards women, but more that maybe the industry could stop being so shit about handling females in games.

As for the other bit, I've been on nearly 3 years. I've never met a girl who just did it socially and was like `Oh well` if we wiped. My guild leader was a female, the main tank was a female. These people are not special or that rare. Generally, they are just hiding. Which causes people to think they are not there. I make no deal out of my gender. I'm a lady, thats how it is. But a lot of female players don't want to identify themselves. Just spoke to boyfriend who has been playing since vanilla and he didn't really know any social ladies. All our ladies have been serious.

Generalisations don't really move the conversation forward. It's perfectly possible to get a lady who likes games just as much as you do (I like certain games much more than my boyfriend does).

 

[Ian Lutz]

To be honest I cannot really give you a solid answer. Since first off I don't personally know/work for every development studio out there. Because of that, I don't really want to make any assumptions about the character of those currently in the industry, which I guess means that I don't think devs are doing it intentionally ( a possible exception to this being the Witcher example, but I haven't played that game so again I can't really say). That said most if not all of the developers I've had contact with (talked to/saw in a panel) just don't strike me as those kinds of people.

 

[deadish]

Snipped out the first bit. I don't think anyone here is arguing for games to be geared towards women, but more that maybe the industry could stop being so shit about handling females in games.

That's the point. Your numbers are too small for them to care. It doesn't bothered the guys who make up the majority of their player base, who continues to buy it, so nothing gets done about it.

As for the other bit, I've been on nearly 3 years. I've never met a girl who just did it socially and was like `Oh well` if we wiped. My guild leader was a female, the main tank was a female. These people are not special or that rare. Generally, they are just hiding. Which causes people to think they are not there. I make no deal out of my gender. I'm a lady, thats how it is. But a lot of female players don't want to identify themselves. Just spoke to boyfriend who has been playing since vanilla and he didn't really know any social ladies. All our ladies have been serious.

Quite the opposite in the guilds I was in, but then maybe because the guilds I joined are not a hardcore raiding guild. The most "serious" players were a few guys like me, who know most of the game mechanic formulas (or at least know where to find them) and the common tactics employed by various classes - even those I don't play.

Generalisations don't really move the conversation forward. It's perfectly possible to get a lady who likes games just as much as you do (I like certain games much more than my boyfriend does).

As I said, I'm not saying you girls don't exist. I'm just saying you are a very small minority. Small enough that gaming as it currently stands have a reputation as a male dominated activity. And I believe that if you want to pull in the rest of the female gender, you will have to make games that cater to their specific taste - and I believe said games will bored guys to death. [1]

[1] Nothing wrong with that, just don't buy them - just like guys don't buy shoujo manga. They are not meant for them.

 

[deadish]

I have wasted m played WoW for 3-4 years.

For every girl like you, there are 10 that play for the "social interaction". You know, the kind that know just enough about the game to function in a group - not exactly a "game mechanic wizard". These are the ones that play to hang out in guild chat and run instances/raids for the "social experience". Winning, losing, isn't a big deal to them. We just loss WG, OK. We just wiped 5 times in a row in a raid, OK. Gear isn't a big deal to them, gear for them is a means to an end - to enable them joining the guild in raids - rather than the goal.

So what you are saying is that they are intelligent gamers. Just because they are not foaming at the mouth and smashing their keyboard because they wiped a few times is meaningless. The thing is they may very well be just as serious as others they just dont get all emotional about a game because well its just a game.

Also did you ever think that they play not for the social aspect but simply because they like the game?

Of course, they like the game. But which part?

They aren't all that interested in "progression" - for most part taking it very very lightly. So what other reason is there to play the game if you aren't "playing the game"?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Of course, they like the game. But which part?

They aren't all that interested in "progression" - for most part taking it very very lightly. So what other reason is there to play the game if you aren't "playing the game"?

I'm guessing that would vary from individual to individual.

Possibly because I view women as individuals, with different personalities, different ideas of what is fun, and different motivations for doing things. I realize this clashes with your perception of them as a giant hive mind that collectively plays games so they can talk about ponies and boy bands and their vaginas, but there you have it.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Of course, they like the game. But which part?

They aren't all that interested in "progression" - for most part taking it very very lightly. So what other reason is there to play the game if you aren't "playing the game"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test

The players you encountered would be considered "socializers" by this system. Both male and female players can be "socializers," and both female and male players can fall into other personality archetypes as well.

 

[deadish]

I'm guessing that would vary from individual to individual.

Possibly because I view women as individuals, with different personalities, different ideas of what is fun, and different motivations for doing things. I realize this clashes with your perception of them as a giant hive mind that collectively plays games so they can talk about ponies and boy bands and their vaginas, but there you have it.

A lot of assumptions you are making about me.

I aware they are individuals, but there are common traits. And when you make a mass produced product you target those common traits. You got a better idea?

 

[deadish]

Just because they dont start screaming and rage quit after two or three deaths does not mean they arnt interested in progression.

It's not about rage quiting or scream. It's about giving a damn.

BTW I have no issue with them not giving a damn, if they don't then they don't. But it's a sign that the core game play mechanics hasn't engaged them

 

[deadish]

Have you ever actually talked to a woman?

Sure. I played WoW for 3-4 years. Quite few women in my guild. And what I type in these posts are my observations.

 

[deadish]

Of course, they like the game. But which part?

They aren't all that interested in "progression" - for most part taking it very very lightly. So what other reason is there to play the game if you aren't "playing the game"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test

The players you encountered would be considered "socializers" by this system. Both male and female players can be "socializers," and both female and male players can fall into other personality archetypes as well.

I agree. It's just that I contend that most female WoW players are socializers, because that is what I personally observed. I see that as a sign that the core gameplay mechanics might not be engaging them.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I aware they are individuals, but there are common traits. And when you make a mass produced product you target those common traits. You got a better idea?

The reward/feedback system that powers games, and the ambition/volition to overcome challenges in order to gain said rewards, are fundamental human qualities. They are not limited to males. Asserting that women just want to sit around and bond and knit booties while the men conquer the universe is hilariously silly, and it's why people are asking you if you've even spoken to a woman before.

And no, the Night Elf in your WoW guild with the bitchin' cleavage does not count.

 

[deadish]

The reward/feedback system that powers games, and the ambition/volition to overcome challenges in order to gain said rewards, are fundamental human qualities. They are not limited to males. Asserting that women just want to sit around and bond and knit booties while the men conquer the universe is hilariously silly, and it's why people are asking you if you've even spoken to a woman before.

Have you ever considered that the "rewards" women want are might actually be *grasp* different from men?

Now it's my turn to ask if you ever talked to women.

We can argue until kingdom come, but the statistics don't lie. CoD has a minuscule female population, The Sims players are over 50% female I believe, so on and so forth.

And no, the Night Elf in your WoW guild with the bitchin' cleavage does not count.

I play horde. :3

Most of the females in my guild end up playing Taurens or Trolls BTW. /shrug

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Have you ever considered that the "rewards" women want are might actually be *grasp* different from men?

Again, has it occurred to YOU that "men" and "women" aren't collectives in any degree aside from their genitalia, and that making sweeping generalizations about what constitutes "fun" or "goals" for men and women is ridiculous? Especially if your assertion is that they don't "play the game" to "play the game", but rather to chat and braid each other's hair.

Now it's my turn to ask if you ever talked to women.

Someone's feeling defensive!

We can argue until kingdom come, but the statistics don't lie. CoD has a minuscule female population, The Sims players are over 50% female I believe, so on and so forth.

All those statistics give you are populations. You're extrapolating the REASON for those populations.

 

[deadish]

Have you ever considered that the "rewards" women want are might actually be *grasp* different from men?

Again, has it occurred to YOU that "men" and "women" aren't collectives in any degree aside from their genitalia, and that making sweeping generalizations about what constitutes "fun" or "goals" for men and women is ridiculous? Especially if your assertion is that they don't "play the game" to "play the game", but rather to chat and braid each other's hair.

What part of "common traits" do you not understand? No one is exactly the same as another, but certain groups of people can have similarities.

And when did I assert that ALL women play to socialize? Stop attacking a strawman.

Now it's my turn to ask if you ever talked to women.

Someone's feeling defensive!

Err... OK. Whatever man. I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

We can argue until kingdom come, but the statistics don't lie. CoD has a minuscule female population, The Sims players are over 50% female I believe, so on and so forth.

All those statistics give you are populations. You're extrapolating the REASON for those populations.

And you design games (and any other mass produced product for the matter) around the characteristics of populations ...

 

[Kahunaburger]

Of course, they like the game. But which part?

They aren't all that interested in "progression" - for most part taking it very very lightly. So what other reason is there to play the game if you aren't "playing the game"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test

The players you encountered would be considered "socializers" by this system. Both male and female players can be "socializers," and both female and male players can fall into other personality archetypes as well.

I agree. It's just that I contend that most female WoW players are socializers, because that is what I personally observed. I see that as a sign that the core gameplay mechanics might not be engaging them.

Well, unless you did a detailed survey about gender and playstyle of an SRS of WoW players, your personal observations don't really give you anything you can generalize.

And I'd submit that a MMO with chat, team quests, and emotes most certainly provides several core mechanics that cater to socializers.

 

[Vault Citizen]

In regards to the Assasins Creed example of the original post I wouldn't have introduced a female main character either. I imagine it would be very uncomfortable for Desmond to be synced up with a body of a different gender, his other ancestors have all looked close enough to him for a smooth transition so there haven't been any problems there.

Another way to think about it, it causes the program to run less efficiently if Desmond hits someone he isn't meant to, think what it will do to the program if Desmond finds that he suddenly has breasts.

 

[deadish]

Establish generalizations based on scientific data rather than your own extremely limited assumptions? Just a thought.

Ah. And "scientific data" has point out that there aren't many female gamers. If there were we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

That's the answer you're going to give me with a straight face? I'm not sure how to react to that just yet, but none of the possible reactions are a positive one.

These are my personal observations and I present them as such and nothing else. And what do you mean "none positive"?

That's a bit rich coming from a guy who's using a 1950's model of what he thinks women want.

I don't know what women want, I wish I did. But I do know it's different most of the time from what I as a guy want.

If that's the fight you want to start, you're going to fucking lose.

You started it me not me.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
-Benjamin Disraeli

You're talking to a mentalist. I know way better than you that it's possible to make numbers mean whatever you want them to. Numbers are useless without qualitative research to put them into context and give them meaning, something you have completely failed to produce.

I repeat myself. If gaming isn't male dominated, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Do you see posts like "Are film makers deliberately discouraging women from watching movies?" ?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

What part of "common traits" do you not understand? No one is exactly the same as another, but certain groups of people can have similarities.

Your assertion is that "the desire to play games to play games", or in this specific case, the desire to progress in World of Warcraft, is a biological trait commonly shared by men, and not by women. Apparently our penises make us want to raid? And you used your anecdotal experience as evidence for this assertion. And for some reason, you can't understand why people are laughing.

And when did I assert that ALL women play to socialize? Stop attacking a strawman.

You asserted that they don't "play the game to play the game", and speculated that socialization could be the reason instead. It's the age old "No True Scotsman" fallacy as applies to gaming. You've even trotted out the timeworn CoD/Sims routine in an attempt to give the argument a backbone.

 

[deadish]

Well, unless you did a detailed survey about gender and playstyle of an SRS of WoW players, your personal observations don't really give you anything you can generalize.

And I'd submit that a MMO with chat, team quests, and emotes most certainly provides several core mechanics that cater to socializers.

And my opinions are presented as such. They are opinions formed from personal observation, which I think I'm entitled to have.

I think some of you guys are reading way too much into what I'm writing here. ><