Are people, in general, out of their minds?

[ButtonedDownParadox]

but is not the guarentee of safety/ the perception of these nations in and of itself a delusion.

I love your last question and my only answer is (maddeningly) another question, what is advancement?
If you determine being 'advanced' as technological I really don't see how we can do this without detrimentally affecting the world at large. Convenience has been the root of most of our 'advancements' by that definition "need is the mother of all invention" as they say. If you count advancement as something more introspective, mental, spiritual etc then the answer is immaterial, no seriously thats the answer, a material nature will only further exponetially increase the 'stuff' in our lives and our desire for 'stuff' granted I'm talking more about a western greed but it's born out of their 'fear induced ideologies' as you put it, adding to the delusion because true materialism is just another mechanism to control the masses.

I suppose I should have clarified by advancement I meant in the sense of knowledge. I would argue your point of human advancement not being based on material things as the more we learn the easier things become and as a result we adapt our beliefs. Cars make us lazy, internet makes us socially recede, etc.

Take for instance just about any country which doesn't rely on technology. I had just read in a thread that in some countries a set of twins where one is male and one is female are married at birth because they believe that the children were having sex inside the womb. Without medical or scientific knowledge people continue to cling to their traditions and their beliefs where as in America being one of the advanced countries we have moved forward into people being very introspective and thus uncomfortable and thus delusional.

If you can agree on that point then it brings us back to the question as to how we can continue to advance without social disintegration?

 

[samsprinkle]

I follow my own ideas and beliefs. No one will see me eye to eye though. They believe I am "out of my mind." I know this is irrelevant to what you were getting at, but what drives me is hatred. An undying hatred for everything around me. To such an extent that the things I love become very supreme forces.

 

[ButtonedDownParadox]

I follow my own ideas and beliefs. No one will see me eye to eye though. They believe I am "out of my mind." I know this is irrelevant to what you were getting at, but what drives me is hatred. An undying hatred for everything around me. To such an extent that the things I love become very supreme forces.

You may have to elaborate. You only think of things in terms of love and hate?

 

[samsprinkle]

I follow my own ideas and beliefs. No one will see me eye to eye though. They believe I am "out of my mind." I know this is irrelevant to what you were getting at, but what drives me is hatred. An undying hatred for everything around me. To such an extent that the things I love become very supreme forces.

You may have to elaborate. You only think of things in terms of love and hate?

You asked what drove me on a baser level. And yes, on a baser level all that drives me is hate and love. But on a more complicated and rational level(i.e. the white picket fence level)I am drawn by a desire to do something that will be remembered for centuries to come. I don't know if I am being confusing or coming off as daft, but it is difficult to put my beliefs on paper...

 

[ButtonedDownParadox]

I follow my own ideas and beliefs. No one will see me eye to eye though. They believe I am "out of my mind." I know this is irrelevant to what you were getting at, but what drives me is hatred. An undying hatred for everything around me. To such an extent that the things I love become very supreme forces.

You may have to elaborate. You only think of things in terms of love and hate?

You asked what drove me on a baser level. And yes, on a baser level all that drives me is hate and love. But on a more complicated and rational level(i.e. the white picket fence level)I am drawn by a desire to do something that will be remembered for centuries to come. I don't know if I am being confusing or coming off as daft, but it is difficult to put my beliefs on paper...

Well this forum is me questioning if everyone is daft so no worries there. (Humor)

But yes those are arguably the strongest emotions so it makes sense that those are your base influences. I just didn't know if you were saying everything was black and white or something. But as someone who is seen as, "out of their mind" how would you weigh in on the topic at hand?

 

[samsprinkle]

I follow my own ideas and beliefs. No one will see me eye to eye though. They believe I am "out of my mind." I know this is irrelevant to what you were getting at, but what drives me is hatred. An undying hatred for everything around me. To such an extent that the things I love become very supreme forces.

You may have to elaborate. You only think of things in terms of love and hate?

You asked what drove me on a baser level. And yes, on a baser level all that drives me is hate and love. But on a more complicated and rational level(i.e. the white picket fence level)I am drawn by a desire to do something that will be remembered for centuries to come. I don't know if I am being confusing or coming off as daft, but it is difficult to put my beliefs on paper...

Well this forum is me questioning if everyone is daft so no worries there. (Humor)

But yes those are arguably the strongest emotions so it makes sense that those are your base influences. I just didn't know if you were saying everything was black and white or something. But as someone who is seen as, "out of their mind" how would you weigh in on the topic at hand?

I would have to say that politicians are incredibly daft. And yes, maybe all of us are out of our minds.

 

[Valiance]

Yes, yes they are.

No, you're not the only who realizes how pointless it all is, and you're not the only person that Democrats/Republicans/Libertarians/Greens are all stupid and are all wrong, because anyone who has honestly determined their stance on an issue before they hear it is very stupid.

Honestly, there are a few things I'm generally conservative about, and a few things I'm generally liberal about.

Anyway, it might be this stupid camaraderie thing that Americans want. Maybe people want to be part of a big group of friends and that's what they see political parties as. I'm sure it's not that simple, but I've met people who are stupidly intolerant in both directions.

but yes, work does not matter, and what drives me on a base level is love. That's about it these days.

 

[Dramatic Flare]

And I quote, "But any rational observer has to see that the Left and Right in America are screaming the most vile accusations at each other all the time. we are fully polarized-if you accept one idea that sounds like it belongs to either the blue or the red, you are assumed- nay, required-to espouse the entire rest of the package, even though there is no reason why supporting the war against terrorism should imply you're in favor of banning all abortions and against restricting the availability of firearms; no reason why being in favor of keeping government-imposed limits on the free market should imply you are in favor of giving legal status to homosexual couples and against building nuclear reactors. These issues are not remotely related, and yet if you hold any of one group's views, you are hated by the other group as if you believed them all; and if you hold most of one group's views, but not all, you are treated as if you were a traitor for deviating even slightly from the party line." Orson Scott Card, Empire (in the afterword).

Yes, I agree with you. I've told my very liberal Spanish Teacher to her face, when she was discussing politics she looked just like the person she hated most.
The ones she called evil.
She told me once my problem was that I couldn't let myself be wrong.
"So,I can't be wrong, but you're always right when it comes to political theory? I'll take my option, the 'people are sheep and sheep are stupid' option. At least mine can't be disproven."

 

[ButtonedDownParadox]

No, you're not the only who realizes how pointless it all is

What do you believe is pointless exactly?

 

[FalloutJack]

Most people are fools at one given time or another, some more than others. I actually have a rough estamate on how much of the population is idiotic to the core, but you wouldn't like it and I think the forum would find it generally offensive. Let's just say I'm cynical.

But of course people are crazy. It is my belief that nobody in this line of work (as in anything having to deal directly in politics) is to be considered sane. That doesn't necessarily imply that there is no hope. It's just that you may want to keep these things in mind so that you're not taken by surprise.

 

[Jaqen Hghar]

I am not American myself, but I know, to a certain degree, how things are over there.
And while I don't think we here in Norway have the exact same situation, I guess most western countries (which I will say Norway is, because of our lifestyle) are the same. But I think in your country, fear is way to present. You fear that you will lose what you have. Your car, your house, your job. I know, this was said in Bowling for Columbine, but I think it is right. And this is not just in America. Every day we are being fed with tragedies and "evil" things on the news. Famine, death, aids, recession, war...

I think Bill Hicks (an American actually) said it the best. "It's just a ride".
Why worry? Why not enjoy our short time here?

 

[Zildjin81]

I'll keep my answers simple, yes.

 

[DragunovHUN]

Umm, is it just me or does your title not go too well with your OP? I mean, you're like "people in general" and then you turn around to create a USA-specific thread. Looks to me like the Escapist is multinational enough to consider the rest of the world when you type this kind of stuff.

I'm not hating or anything, just wondering...

 

[santaandy]

Well you sort of tangented off into another topic in your OP, so I will attempt to answer both questions.

1) As an American, I feel that the thing that drives me most, in a base way, on a daily basis, is to attempt to enjoy my life in the ways that I choose, because we (largely) have the freedom to do so. I also have a small sense of wanderlust and scientific curiosity about life in general, which seemed to be predominant traits of Americans throughout most of the 20th century. There are tons of people to see, places to go, and things to do, and I'd like to spend the personal part of my life doing that.

2) As for delusion, I believe it is more misinformation. Everyone lies so much that you don't know who to trust. Then when you start finding out the bad sides of people (like public officials) you just get paranoid and assume they are all out to get you. And I say if no one is willing to disprove your theory, rightfully so.

The American people have become divided for many reasons (which I will not get into here) but because of the lack of public trustworthiness people are becoming one-sided in an attempt to feel safe again. They identify with the side that feels most like themsleves. People don't just make stuff up, they assemble their own opinions out of whatever facts and figures they can find. It is up to those who serve and those who report to be open and honest enough to keep people from forming crazy ideas and to dispel said crazy ideas when they are formed. Otherwise, they must deal with the products of their inaction.

You seem to put a lot of faith in "three branches" and "checks and balances" but such things are only as good as the people running them, who today, to put it politely, are less than inspiring. I have been hearing about things like Jose Serrano wanting to overturn the 22nd amendment (setting Presidential term limits) from legitimate news sources, but the "Obama to change military oath to President instead of country" turns out to be a chain email letter. Who do I believe? Unfortunately, I can't believe anyone. I can't believe every crazy thing I hear about Obama, but when I do hear crazy things from legitimate sources, I feel like I can't believe in him either. So, I am left to assume that somehow, unless they are willing to prove such ideas wrong publicly, that they are all out to get me.

 

[Sparrow]

Umm. Not pointing this out to dig at anyone, but I'm English, therefore I'm deemed mental by anyone American, and have a mutual understanding with Australians.

Anyway. If everyone is out of their minds, or at least the bigger percentage, then people won't think they're out of their minds, they'll think that those people are normal. Infact, what society deems normal could be mental. If ratio shifts, the normal people of today will become the mental people.

 

[ButtonedDownParadox]

Umm, is it just me or does your title not go too well with your OP? I mean, you're like "people in general" and then you turn around to create a USA-specific thread. Looks to me like the Escapist is multinational enough to consider the rest of the world when you type this kind of stuff.

I'm not hating or anything, just wondering...

I'm an American and having never been outside the country I'm unfamiliar with how non-Americans perceive their surroundings (And I'm sorry that sounds like something off of National Geographic but words are failing me at the moment) so yes this post was a little centric but if you read through the thread you can see that I'm having a discussion with p1p3s as to whether or not this applies to wherever he is from and I would encourage any one to do what they need to adapt the discussion.

 

[Railu]

To put it simply, I think the majority of the Western Culture is that people (for the most part) are trying to better themselves and not thinking about the rest of the world. So people are making wars with themselves and with others around them, and are being led by the same people that make BIG wars.

A little off the mark, but I can see you have the right idea. What I am about to say is not every american, but it is something that the entire world already sees. Americans aren't trying to better themselves, they tend to think they are already the best. If there is one good thing to come from this economic catastrophe it's that it's opened the eyes of many to the outside world.

Americans seem to live in a post-WW2 bubble even 60 years later as if they had just overthrown the 3rd Reich and toppled the emperor's eastern army. It seems America defines itself through war and a measure of military strength. They act as if the very idea of freedom and democracy is their sole propriety and gift from God to share with the world. The US is not synonymous with freedom, but in many American minds, it is. So an attack on the US is the same as attack on freedom and democracy. But it isn't. It's not different than one country attacking another.

So what happens? You go up in arms because some evil power is attacking this glorious gift from God (sound familiar?) and you go to war. The truth is, the people at the top don't think that at all. They have their own agenda but they know the fragile mind of most Americans can be manipulated into thinking it and supporting their irrational claim, even if there is no threat at all.

Now there are many (especially now) who don't get their gun off when the troops get theirs. Support for foreign wars has diminished greatly after the cost of the war has hit home. But so long as Americans can be manipulated into thinking that it's for the golden lamb, freedom and democracy, there are many who will cast in their lots to support it... or at least be afraid to oppose it.

 

[ButtonedDownParadox]

1)Well you sort of tangented off into another topic in your OP, so I will attempt to answer both questions.

2) The American people have become divided for many reasons (which I will not get into here) but because of the lack of public trustworthiness people are becoming one-sided in an attempt to feel safe again. They identify with the side that feels most like themsleves. People don't just make stuff up, they assemble their own opinions out of whatever facts and figures they can find. It is up to those who serve and those who report to be open and honest enough to keep people from forming crazy ideas and to dispel said crazy ideas when they are formed. Otherwise, they must deal with the products of their inaction.

3) You seem to put a lot of faith in "three branches" and "checks and balances" but such things are only as good as the people running them, who today, to put it politely, are less than inspiring. I have been hearing about things like Jose Serrano wanting to overturn the 22nd amendment (setting Presidential term limits) from legitimate news sources, but the "Obama to change military oath to President instead of country" turns out to be a chain email letter. Who do I believe? Unfortunately, I can't believe anyone. I can't believe every crazy thing I hear about Obama, but when I do hear crazy things from legitimate sources, I feel like I can't believe in him either. So, I am left to assume that somehow, unless they are willing to prove such ideas wrong publicly, that they are all out to get me.

1) I do that a lot. I kinda have to trick myself into asking the question I want to ask.

2) I don't think they make stuff up either but could you agree that when something threatens what they think they may will themselves into believing half-truths in order to deflate the opposition just for self-satisfaction? And you say it's up to those who serve and report yet in the next paragraph you seem distrustful of even those who do so... (Which I'm not arguing its justification)

3) Are those who don't fall into this trap doomed to be like you or me? Doomed is an ominous word but it's just like, "Take your pick. You can either be delusional, ignorant, or paranoid."

 

[santaandy]

1) I do that a lot. I kinda have to trick myself into asking the question I want to ask.

2) I don't think they make stuff up either but could you agree that when something threatens what they think they may will themselves into believing half-truths in order to deflate the opposition just for self-satisfaction? And you say it's up to those who serve and report yet in the next paragraph you seem distrustful of even those who do so... (Which I'm not arguing its justification)

3) Are those who don't fall into this trap doomed to be like you or me? Doomed is an ominous word but it's just like, "Take your pick. You can either be delusional, ignorant, or paranoid."

1) Well, it seems you have an intelligent discussion going, so at the risk of sounding condescending (which I'm not) well done!

2) I think that's entirely possible. And in the media probably just for ratings and revenue. To better explain the second point, its the job of those who serve us and those who report the news to a) actually serve and report to us, and b) do so truthfully. For a long time we had neither. Now we have some of both, but it's impossible to sort out. When someone is actually open and honest enough for me to be able to follow along, I'll begin to trust them more, be they public servants (i.e. the President), the media, or just another citizen.

3) Sadly, all I can say is that those are the only options given to us. We can only pretend without something tangible (information-wise) to go off of.

 

[Masika]

To put it simply, I think the majority of the Western Culture is that people (for the most part) are trying to better themselves and not thinking about the rest of the world. So people are making wars with themselves and with others around them, and are being led by the same people that make BIG wars.

A little off the mark, but I can see you have the right idea. What I am about to say is not every american, but it is something that the entire world already sees. Americans aren't trying to better themselves, they tend to think they are already the best. If there is one good thing to come from this economic catastrophe it's that it's opened the eyes of many to the outside world.

Americans seem to live in a post-WW2 bubble even 60 years later as if they had just overthrown the 3rd Reich and toppled the emperor's eastern army. It seems America defines itself through war and a measure of military strength. They act as if the very idea of freedom and democracy is their sole propriety and gift from God to share with the world. The US is not synonymous with freedom, but in many American minds, it is. So an attack on the US is the same as attack on freedom and democracy. But it isn't. It's not different than one country attacking another.

So what happens? You go up in arms because some evil power is attacking this glorious gift from God (sound familiar?) and you go to war. The truth is, the people at the top don't think that at all. They have their own agenda but they know the fragile mind of most Americans can be manipulated into thinking it and supporting their irrational claim, even if there is no threat at all.

Now there are many (especially now) who don't get their gun off when the troops get theirs. Support for foreign wars has diminished greatly after the cost of the war has hit home. But so long as Americans can be manipulated into thinking that it's for the golden lamb, freedom and democracy, there are many who will cast in their lots to support it... or at least be afraid to oppose it.

I do understand what you mean by what you say and I can see what you thought of what I said. I merely said something super quick and that was, in a way, the quickest way for me to sum up what I was going to say. I was intending on replying to it later tonight and adding to what I wrote, but just about all I was going to say, you already covered.

Glad to see we mostly see eye to eye.