Are There Groups That You Shouldn't Criticize?

[KissingSunlight]

(I won't go in to my recent experience with Bronies. It did consists of 2 posts receiving warnings and a locked thread.)

Isn't that because you kept calling them "potential child molesters"? That's not so much "criticism" as "ignorant bollacks".

OT

The only group no-one is allowed to criticise is whatever group I'm currently associating with. So na-na-na-na-nah!

Since people want to bring this up. I made that comment once. I had a person asks me why I said that. So, I tried to explain. I got flagged again for my effort. So, I made a thread asking people who thought I was misguided by saying that, "Why is that statement wrong?" I got one eloquent poster with experience telling me nobody knows any particular symptom associated with pedophilia. Beside that person, I got into a 3 hours back-and-forth with 2 people. One was making a false equivalency between Pokémon and MLP. The other was asking me to define basic words. I'm guessing this person was trying to play a game of "Gotcha!" or wanting to play semantics with basic terms. I decided to stop engaging for the night. I hoped to have other people post on the thread to better help me understand the Bronies community. Instead, I found out the next day that the thread was locked.

I don't want to get into the subject of Bronies again. How they tried to change my mind was to censor me. So, I really don't have that much respect for that community now. As for the initial comment, I was expressing an opinion. I now understand there is no fact to support it. I'll just let that matter drop.

How does that connects to the main topic. Most people who engaged me were more interested in making me bad guy for expressing a negative opinion, than they were in trying to correct my misunderstanding on the subject. So, that's why I am asking this question. People are behaving that they shouldn't be criticize. Especially, by someone who are outside of their group.

 

[Eamar]

How they tried to change my mind was to censor me. So, I really don't have that much respect for that community now.

Really not seeing where censorship comes into this. Flagging insulting posts isn't censorship, it's upholding the rules of this forum (and yeah, accusing people of being child molesters without any reason is insulting).

To get to the nub of it all though, you called them paedophiles and they didn't respond with calm, welcoming attitudes? Gee, who'da thought it?

How does that connects to the main topic. Most people who engaged me were more interested in making me bad guy for expressing a negative opinion, than they were in trying to correct my misunderstanding on the subject.

It's kind of amusing that when someone criticises you it's censorship or "making you the bad guy". Mmmkay.

People are behaving that they shouldn't be criticize. Especially, by someone who are outside of their group.

As many of us have already said in this very thread, what you did wasn't criticism.

 

[IceForce]

I don't want to get into the subject of Bronies again. How they tried to change my mind was to censor me. So, I really don't have that much respect for that community now.

I don't really understand this point.
The moderators here can censor people, but I'm not aware than anyone else here can censor people.

Are you suggesting this site is moderated entirely by bronies?

 

[Padwolf]

There is criticizing and then there is attacking. As long as you are actually criticizing in a reasonable manner, and not making sweeping generalizations, then no one is above criticism. But be prepared for them to answer to your criticism, and that's it's alright for them to criticize you too for it and it's not "censoring" you. Calling bronies potential child molesters is not criticizing the group, it's just attacking.

 

[Dragonlayer]

(I won't go in to my recent experience with Bronies. It did consists of 2 posts receiving warnings and a locked thread.)

Isn't that because you kept calling them "potential child molesters"? That's not so much "criticism" as "ignorant bollacks".

OT

The only group no-one is allowed to criticise is whatever group I'm currently associating with. So na-na-na-na-nah!

Since people want to bring this up. I made that comment once. I had a person asks me why I said that. So, I tried to explain. I got flagged again for my effort. So, I made a thread asking people who thought I was misguided by saying that, "Why is that statement wrong?" I got one eloquent poster with experience telling me nobody knows any particular symptom associated with pedophilia. Beside that person, I got into a 3 hours back-and-forth with 2 people. One was making a false equivalency between Pokémon and MLP. The other was asking me to define basic words. I'm guessing this person was trying to play a game of "Gotcha!" or wanting to play semantics with basic terms. I decided to stop engaging for the night. I hoped to have other people post on the thread to better help me understand the Bronies community. Instead, I found out the next day that the thread was locked.

I don't want to get into the subject of Bronies again. How they tried to change my mind was to censor me. So, I really don't have that much respect for that community now. As for the initial comment, I was expressing an opinion. I now understand there is no fact to support it. I'll just let that matter drop.

How does that connects to the main topic. Most people who engaged me were more interested in making me bad guy for expressing a negative opinion, than they were in trying to correct my misunderstanding on the subject. So, that's why I am asking this question. People are behaving that they shouldn't be criticize. Especially, by someone who are outside of their group.

Now admittedly I didn't stay in the forum to watch what happened, in the same way I wouldn't stay in a forum about internet subgroups that opened with "So, Furries eh? Dogfuckers or what?", but I can't imagine this site is draconian enough to stomp all over your freedom of speech without due course. Like say, coming out with something as offensive as "The men who watch this show are likely to be sexually abusing children, because reasons" and then complaining that you're the victim when the rightly offended men turn around and tell you that's ridiculous.

Look, I'll show you how to criticise Bronies: "I think elements of the MLP fandom have an obsessive interest on what is honestly a show primarily for children and that the particularly rabid fans are incredibly annoying when they try to shove this interest in everyone's faces."

See, that was easy!

 

[KissingSunlight]

I'm really debating with myself whether or not I should try to continue this thread. It really seems that most people would rather take me to task over one comment I made couple of months ago than to talk about the subject I introduced in the original post.

On one hand, I think this is a good example of how people get self-righteously defensive over any type of criticism regardless of how obvious that criticism is. Example: A group of adult males being proud about being fans a cartoon made for little girls. Having someone wondering out loud, is that a red flag for something serious that our society should be concerned about? After that person watched the cartoon in question and found nothing appealing for a grown man to like. Could I have phrased that differently? Yes. I'll take responsibility for that. However, the response I got was being flagged, thread locked, and disingenuous posts. That was not receiving criticism back. Those were attempts to silence me from pointing out a reasonable, yet unproven conclusion.

On the other hand, are the people on this forum actually self-aware enough to admit that sometimes they are quick to label someone else a bigot? Would they admit they feel justified in trampling over the another person's opportunity to express a dissenting opinion & learn what other opinions and facts there are about an issue? Just because they believe that their position on the issue is so sound that only a bigot would ever dare to question it.

 

[Radoh]

Are you for real? Like I honestly can't tell if this is serious or not.
You do realise that a good portion of your OP was talking about bronies right? And since you already made another thread about this before this one that got deleted specifically asking about this exact same thing and had it answered repeatedly, it's pretty obvious what this thread is actually about to anyone who is aware of your history on this subject (and who couldn't, you talk about it in the OP after all).
Besides, all your "Criticisms" as pointed out by, well, everyone weren't actually criticisms at all but attacks on character. It's your simple refusal to accept the concept that choice of media consumption has no bearing on one's sexual proclivities, except in the case of pornography I suppose.
Honestly considering the reason why the previous thread was deleted and your current attitude in this thread I don't even know why I'm bothering to write this out in the first place, since it will clearly fall on deaf ears, but I guess I just really have nothing better to do with my time.
Sad, when you think about it.

 

[IceForce]

I'm really debating with myself whether or not I should try to continue this thread. It really seems that most people would rather take me to task over one comment I made couple of months ago than to talk about the subject I introduced in the original post.

Except, it was you who initially mentioned those comments and warnings in your OP.
You can't blame others for talking about a point that you yourself raised.

Essentially, you derailed your own thread.

On one hand, I think this is a good example of how people get self-righteously defensive over any type of criticism regardless of how obvious that criticism is. Example: A group of adult males being proud about being fans a cartoon made for little girls. Having someone wondering out loud, is that a red flag for something serious that our society should be concerned about?

You've gotten a couple of things wrong here.
Firstly, that's not criticism. As others have pointed out, (and as I suspected when I asked you what you specifically meant when you say the word "criticism"), you're using that word wrong.

"You use too much toilet paper when going to the toilet." = Criticism
"I think adults men who watch 'x' TV show might be potential child molesters." = NOT criticism

Learn the difference.

Secondly, what you said was not framed in the form of a question. It was made in the form of a statement. A statement that had no basis in fact.

After that person watched the cartoon in question and found nothing appealing for a grown man to like.

Ah yes, anecdotal evidence. No poorly thought out argument is complete without anecdotal evidence.

Could I have phrased that differently? Yes. I'll take responsibility for that. However, the response I got was being flagged, thread locked, and disingenuous posts. That was not receiving criticism back. Those were attempts to silence me from pointing out a reasonable, yet unproven conclusion.

As I thought, you seem to have a very distorted definition of the word "criticism".

When people challenge your views and call you out on your opinions, YES that is criticism.
When someone calls a bunch of people they don't know and have never met, potential child molesters, NO that is NOT criticism.

Would they admit they feel justified in trampling over the another person's opportunity to express a dissenting opinion & learn what other opinions and facts there are about an issue?

If anyone "trampled" on your opinion, it would be the moderators. So this question should really be aimed at them.

What I find interesting though, is how you're not too keen yourself at acknowledging any dissenting opinions aimed towards you, as evidenced by this thread and your previous one.

 

[lacktheknack]

I did find it interesting that while people were criticizing me for the conclusion that I had reached. Nobody addressed the main criticism I had about the show. My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic has NO reasonable appeal to adult males. I had a couple of people say, "Sure, that's just your opinion." Nobody explained what is the appeal of this show to adult males. Which is odd. Since your whole deal is all about being a bunch of dudes not ashamed to admit liking a little girl show.

The appeal of MLP:FiM is the same appeal as the Powerpuff Girls and Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends: They're all clever and entertaining kids shows with content aimed at adults that may be watching (specifically, parents).

Good enough?

I fail to see how a dad watching a show with his daughter and being entertained is not worth criticizing, but a dude watching the same show WITHOUT a small child nearby is suddenly a target.

 

[Folji]

The appeal of MLP:FiM is the same appeal as the Powerpuff Girls and Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends: They're all clever and entertaining kids shows with content aimed at adults that may be watching (specifically, parents).

Good enough?

I fail to see how a dad watching a show with his daughter and being entertained is not worth criticizing, but a dude watching the same show WITHOUT a small child nearby is suddenly a target.

It is a thing that does not conform with cookie cutter standards, therefore it is evil and must be abolished.

Right? That's how it usually goes, right? See thing, thing is unfamiliar, not used to thing, talk piss about thing until something happens?

 

[Eamar]

people might have issues with them being so unabashed about liking a show that not only appeals to a different gender

Not everyone believes in strict gender stereotypes the way you apparently do (thankfully). Personally, I think it's pure, socially constructed bullshit that certain animals, colours, personality traits, interests etc are considered to be "girl things" or "boy things", as if someone's gender is their most important characteristic. It's idiotic, it helps no one, and it just leads to people shaming others simply for having the "wrong" interests in relation to their genitals (which is what you're doing).

I mean, let's break this down: why exactly is it so ridiculous that adult men might like something for which they weren't the main intended audience?

Because the majority of characters are female? The reverse situation didn't stop millions of women from enjoying The Avengers. Or the vast majority of entertainment out there, frankly.

Because one (and it really is only one, by the way) of the main characters is into stereotypically "girly" things like fashion? Plenty of women like and identify with stereotypically "masculine" characters like Tony Stark or Thor

Because it's original intended audience was kids? Guess it's also weird that adults like Disney, Pixar, Transformers, TMNT, most superheroes, Harry Potter, The Hobbit, Doctor Who, and the whole concept of video games, right?

Of course, the whole discussion can be negated anyway by the fact that MLP's creator is on record as saying that the show was designed to appeal to adults as well as kids. Did you know that? Have you even watched the show?

Seriously though, and I'd be really interested to hear your opinion: is it creepy for a grown woman like me to enjoy something primarily designed for young boys like the X-Men TV cartoon? If not, why is that?

 

[KissingSunlight]

Eee Gads! Even with all the red meat I posted with the 2nd Edit of the OP, people still want to talk about MLP. OK.

I did find it interesting that while people were criticizing me for the conclusion that I had reached. Nobody addressed the main criticism I had about the show. My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic has NO reasonable appeal to adult males. I had a couple of people say, "Sure, that's just your opinion." Nobody explained what is the appeal of this show to adult males. Which is odd. Since your whole deal is all about being a bunch of dudes not ashamed to admit liking a little girl show.

The appeal of MLP:FiM is the same appeal as the Powerpuff Girls and Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends: They're all clever and entertaining kids shows with content aimed at adults that may be watching (specifically, parents).

Good enough?

I fail to see how a dad watching a show with his daughter and being entertained is not worth criticizing, but a dude watching the same show WITHOUT a small child nearby is suddenly a target.

It's a dude watching the show without a child claiming to God & Country that this show is great. Also, nobody should make fun of him for liking it. I may like something that is a guilty pleasure. A TV show, movie, song, videogame, etc. I know isn't very good and a lot of people don't like it. I am aware of this enough to not make a big deal arguing how great that guilty pleasure is.

people might have issues with them being so unabashed about liking a show that not only appeals to a different gender

Not everyone believes in strict gender stereotypes the way you apparently do (thankfully). Personally, I think it's pure, socially constructed bullshit that certain animals, colours, personality traits, interests etc are considered to be "girl things" or "boy things", as if someone's gender is their most important characteristic. It's idiotic, it helps no one, and it just leads to people shaming others simply for having the "wrong" interests in relation to their genitals (which is what you're doing).

I mean, let's break this down: why exactly is it so ridiculous that adult men might like something for which they weren't the main intended audience?

Because the majority of characters are female? The reverse situation didn't stop millions of women from enjoying The Avengers. Or the vast majority of entertainment out there, frankly.

Because one (and it really is only one, by the way) of the main characters is into stereotypically "girly" things like fashion? Plenty of women like and identify with stereotypically "masculine" characters like Tony Stark or Thor

Because it's original intended audience was kids? Guess it's also weird that adults like Disney, Pixar, Transformers, TMNT, most superheroes, Harry Potter, The Hobbit, Doctor Who, and the whole concept of video games, right?

Of course, the whole discussion can be negated anyway by the fact that MLP's creator is on record as saying that the show was designed to appeal to adults as well as kids. Did you know that? Have you even watched the show?

Seriously though, and I'd be really interested to hear your opinion: is it creepy for a grown woman like me to enjoy something primarily designed for young boys like the X-Men TV cartoon? If not, why is that?

It's gender AND children. MLP is specifically for girls between 5 - 12 years old. I honestly have no problem with people liking the show for gender bending reasons.

As for the X-Men question, I did come up with some reasonable guidelines on which I based my criticism on MLP in a previous thread. It's basically what is understandable for people liking something that they have grown out of. Like nostalgia, X-Men characters have been around for about 50 years. So, it's not unreasonable for a woman growing up liking those characters. The comic also has mature themes such as dealing with bigotry that appeals to adults.

Yes, I have watched the show. Which is what got me this Brony-sized headache to begin with. I was commenting on a thread called "Humoring The Internet". I shared my opinion about Games of Throne and MLP. Honestly, I was neutral about the subject of Bronies before I watched the show. I was concerned afterwards. Not concerned enough to make a big deal about it. It was just when people start attacking me for making that one statement. I started to lose respect for them. I understand why they got upset. I just find it hard to believe that this was the first time that someone ever confronted them about this concern.

 

[Eamar]

It's gender AND children. MLP is specifically for girls between 5 - 12 years old. I honestly have no problem with people liking the show for gender bending reasons.

So why even mention the gender aspect?

As for the X-Men question, I did come up with some reasonable guidelines on which I based my criticism on MLP in a previous thread. It's basically what is understandable for people liking something that they have grown out of. Like nostalgia, X-Men characters have been around for about 50 years. So, it's not unreasonable for a woman growing up liking those characters.

Except I didn't grow up liking X-Men. While I'm a massive fan now, I didn't get into the comics until my late teens, and I never watched any cartoons at all as a kid, so I got into that side of things even later. So according to your scheme of what's reasonable and what isn't, are you about to tell me I only did that so I could get closer to little boys?

Also, loads of adults read Harry Potter when it first came out. I'd say the majority of the new adult Doctor Who fans are far too young to have grown up watching Classic Who. Adults flock to new Pixar movies that have no connection to stories they might have grown up with. Adults get into things like Transformers through the movies and then go back to the original material. How do you justify singling out MLP for criticism?

The comic also has mature themes such as dealing with bigotry that appeals to adults.

So does MLP. Or are friendship, integrity, knowing your strengths and weaknesses, and the representation of a wide range of role models purely the preserve of 5-12 year old girls now? Beyond that, it has appeal in much the same way Disney/Pixar films do - on top of the kiddie stuff it's full of jokes and references specifically intended for adults. Also, a lot of adults (myself included) like the show precisely because of its childlikeness: it's brightly coloured, joyful, and totally uncynical in a way you just don't see in adult entertainment or day to day life. It's escapism.

It was just when people start attacking me for making that one statement. I started to lose respect for them.

Oh for crying out loud... You. Called. Them. Paedophiles. What planet do you live on where that's an accusation you can just casually throw around, not just to individuals, but to a whole group of people?! If someone who'd never met you before and knew nothing about you apart from the fact that you liked one particular TV show came up to you and accused you of being a child molester, how the hell would you react?

I just find it hard to believe that this was the first time that someone ever confronted them about this concern.

...again, what planet are you on? Of course this was the first time they'd encountered this. What you did and the assumptions you're making, the frankly astounding leaps of logic, these are not normal. You don't seem to understand this, and that's where you're going wrong. That's why you're getting these reactions.

No one can stop you feeling this way if that's honestly what you believe, but that doesn't mean anyone has to respect your opinion or take it seriously either.

 

[IceForce]

Nobody addressed the main criticism I had about the show. Nobody explained what is the appeal of this show to adult males. Which is odd. Since your whole deal is all about being a bunch of dudes not ashamed to admit liking a little girl show.

I don't remember you ever asking.

You posts and threads about this subject have all been laced with insults, and never actually showing any willingness to hear what the people on the other side of the debate are saying.

It was just when people start attacking me for making that one statement. I started to lose respect for them.

I can't believe you're still trying to play the victim here.

Hypothetically, if I was to insult you right here right now, a couple of things would happen:
I would get a warning, and you would be upset at me (and rightly so).

And I would NOT be able to say "But I was only expressing my opinion! Why are you flagging me and attacking me for expressing my opinion and making that one statement! I have totally lost respect for you now!"

You see how silly that is?

 

[Radoh]

It's not about sexual orientation specifically. Any adult who is over-enthusiastic about children shows. It should be a red flag for that person being a child molester. The reason I singled out heterosexual males. They were the only group that would be most unlikely to have any appeal to at all. Adult women might like MLP for the nostalgia. Gay men might like it for being colorful and campy.

I started to lose respect for them. I understand why they got upset. I just find it hard to believe that this was the first time that someone ever confronted them about this concern.

So despite you saying that Bronies are child molesters, you then tell us later in this thread that as a result of them being offended by your baseless claims, you say you lost respect for them? Meaning you had respect for bronies in the first place despite you thinking they were child molesters?
You see what the danger of lying on the internet is when there's a very real paper trail of what you said?
You end up in a situation where someone with a lot of free time on their hands points out that you've essentially said that you respect child molesters and pedophiles, and that you only lose respect for them if they get offended by what you say about them.

 

[Eamar]

It's not about sexual orientation specifically. Any adult who is over-enthusiastic about children shows. It should be a red flag for that person being a child molester. The reason I singled out heterosexual males. They were the only group that would be most unlikely to have any appeal to at all. Adult women might like MLP for the nostalgia. Gay men might like it for being colorful and campy.

I started to lose respect for them. I understand why they got upset. I just find it hard to believe that this was the first time that someone ever confronted them about this concern.

So despite you saying that Bronies are child molesters, you then tell us later in this thread that as a result of them being offended by your baseless claims, you say you lost respect for them? Meaning you had respect for bronies in the first place despite you thinking they were child molesters?
You see what the danger of lying on the internet is when there's a very real paper trail of what you said?
You end up in a situation where someone with a lot of free time on their hands points out that you've essentially said that you respect child molesters and pedophiles, and that you only lose respect for them if they get offended by what you say about them.

Not to mention the fact that that first post is absolutely riddled with stereotypes about women and gay men (and indeed, heterosexual men). Not cool at all, even without the paedophilia accusation.

There are not enough facepalms on the entire internet...