Are you freakin' kidding me?

[Wyvern65]

I see. Well, thank you for waiting until now to choose to abandon patience and reason.

I know. Sometimes I even shock myself with how magnanimous I can be.

I am not arguing on behalf of his victims. I have never even said he has victimized anyone, except in the most general, impersonal sort of way, by contributing to the inertia of rape culture, sort of like how anyone who has bought an iPod has contributed to the culture of enslavement and suicide that drives Apple factories in China to install safety netting outside the employee dormitories so no one can commit suicide by leaping. I said I am arguing on behalf of those who find his statement troublesome.

So you aren't arguing on behaf of his victims, and you never said he victimized anyone.

Oh, wait:

I'm kind of horrified that you're bringing this up because you are asking me to treat the perpetrator as a victim and prioritize him over those who found his statement troublesome. This bothers me because it's such a common occurrence to the victims of rape, that they're told they mustn't complain about the attacks in order to spare the rapists from having their feelings hurt.

I know people who suffer PTSD over this topic who would disagree with you.

I don't care if they suffer from alphabet soup. They can be victims of rape culture at large, they cannot be the specific victim of this man's careless comment.

The /worst/ you can say about him is to say he is contributing to rape culture. Not an admirable thing, but to start laying guilt for the suffering of huge groups of people on one specific individual tells me you don't understand what rape culture /is/.

Rape culture isn't the /fault/ of any one comment or any one individual. It's the fault of /all of us/. Patriarchy theory doesn't tell you to go around blaming and shaming specific men, it tells you to go around educating them so we can /all/ get past all this nonsensical bullshit.

That's true. Fortunately for me, I never said I am.

No, you've just appointed yourself their one ardent defender.

I never said anyone was raped, either. In fact, I have said at least twice in this very thread that no one has been raped, and I invite you to go through my posts to find and count the number of times I've said so for yourself. What I said is that wulf3n is using a tactic in a conversation about rape that is common among those who blame the victims of rape for having been attacked, and that I wish he would avoid such tactics.

You linked to real life cases of actual rape and suicide. You did so in the context of attacking an offhand comment. I'll even stipulate it was a rape joke for this.

Even if what the MS speaker said was the most misogynistic, explicit, rapiest rape joke ever told, you DO NOT DO THAT. You do NOT bring up the old wounds and shame of actual feeling human beings as a tactic in an online debate.

FFS. You claim to be concerned about PTSD?

Talk about triggering - linking to actual articles? Over /what/?!?!

Yeah, I'm out of here. Thanks for the discussion and all, and good luck with that windmill, but in my opinion you're doing far more harm to the cause of feminist discourse than anything that poor helpless schmuck ever said.

Protip: Stop making the classic MRA Straw Feminist look like a reasonable alternative to what you're saying.

 

[likalaruku]

I'm a woman, I watched it, & I think whomever thought it was a rape joke was reading way too much into it. All I heard was lady whining that she sucked at blocking & that it wasn't her style of game (her bad for not learning the basics before showtime) while a guy gloated that he wasn't losing to a noob (which is dorky).

 

[JimB]

Oh, wait:

I feel I have explained fairly exhaustively that the complaint I raised is against the tactic he used because of the juxtaposition between the topic of rape discussions and the tactics used by rapists, to the point that I can think of no new ways to phrase it.

They can be victims of rape culture at large; they cannot be the specific victim of this man's careless comment.

Why not?

To start laying guilt for the suffering of huge groups of people on one specific individual tells me you don't understand what rape culture is.

I do not care about his guilt. I care about the effects with which I have to contend.

No, you've just appointed yourself their one ardent defender.

Ignoring the hyperbole of your wording: Yes, I have. I see something that offends me and that I find insupportable, so I am taking what actions I am capable of in order to correct that which offends me. You may deride me for this if you wish, but I do not apologize for it.

You linked to real life cases of actual rape and suicide. You did so in the context of attacking an offhand comment. I'll even stipulate it was a rape joke for this.

Wait, whose comment are we talking about? Are we talking about the Microsoft presenter's, or wulf3n's? I linked those stories because I thought there was a teachable moment, to explain exactly why requests to pity the instigator are not a tactic to use. I suppose I could have provided him with an alternate tactic to use--for instance, instead of appealing to my sympathy, he might have tried to prove that no harm was done--but I generally do not elect to make another person's arguments for him.

You do not bring up the old wounds and shame of actual feeling human beings as a tactic in an online debate.

It is possible I misstepped there, and if I've upset anyone for whom I'm advocating, I can only apologize sincerely. Nevertheless, I feel that ignoring the feelings of those who have been silenced in favor of protecting the accused is an endemic problem with horrific consequences, and I wanted to provide proof of why I think so. I cannot think of a way I can ask people to respect the feelings of those who haven't spoken up unless I cite such stories, but if you know of a way, then I will be grateful to hear of it so I can avoid doing this in the future.

You claim to be concerned about PTSD?

I did the best I could to indicate the nature of the stories contained in those links, and further, hovering the mouse over the links should provide perfectly explicit information as to the contents. If I have done harm despite my intentions and my efforts, then I am genuinely sorry, but I acted as best my conscience dictated.

Thanks for the discussion and all, and good luck with that windmill, but in my opinion you're doing far more harm to the cause of feminist discourse than anything that poor helpless schmuck ever said.

Protip: Stop making the classic MRA Straw Feminist look like a reasonable alternative to what you're saying.

I would probably give these complaints and suggestions more weight if I felt they contained any sincerity, as opposed to a desire to indict me with unanswerable charges before storming off after having had the last word.

Let me be clear: I am human. I am fallible. I will make mistakes, some of which I will recognize and some of which I will not. I concede the possibility of having made a mistake here, and if I have, I would like to learn what it was so I can avoid making it again. In the meantime, however, I intend to proceed from the assumption that my understanding is accurate, because I cannot identify any errors in my thinking at this time.

 

[Dimitriov]

Having read through most of this thread... all I really have to say is that I am offended that anyone could have been offended by such a benign comment. And yes the inherent hypocrisy and irony of that statement is quite intentional. I don't, however, expect anyone to care that I am offended when other people are upset by words.

I am mildly curious though, why those people seem to genuinely expect that anyone cares that THEY are offended? Some words upset you. Got it. And?

 

[BQE]

This is actually a pretty interesting point of contention for me. On one hand, I've been trying to radically alter the vocabulary I generally use, especially within the context of competitive gaming. I personally feel that it doesn't really add much to spout base and incendiary remarks. I just want to improve the sophistication of my speech, regardless of context. Also, I'd hate to lend credibility to or perpetuate such a toxic culture, particularly rape culture.

On the other hand, I get readily disturbed when it comes to this type of policing. I remember not to long ago (And I'm sure still today) the amount of discourse of the notion of calling someone a ****** in a gaming (or joking, etc) context and a similar debate occuring. One side holds the argument that people shouldn't be saying these things in the first place, as they don't exactly paint the most ideal picture of you and your intellect. On the other hand, is the idea that nobody should be policing speech in a manner like this and that it is a slipper slope; the notion to restrict or demonize phrasing due to one group's offense.

It's hard to say. I can only speak for myself and police no other individual. That being said, I'm going to try my hardest to better my speech. I can say in earnest that the major factor is because when I look at myself objectively, I sound ridiculous and lowbrow speaking like that, it's just a bonus that I'm respecting the wishes of others.


P.S. First post! Yay!

 

[wulf3n]

Here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.410308-Are-you-freakin-kidding-me?page=5#19730644] is the comparison. You said that sympathy for the victims of rape ought to translate directly into sympathy for people who endure bad publicity for making offensive statements.

Neither your nor my quote reference sympathy nor people who endure bad publicity and the "offensive statements" are contentious.

What it does reference, is people who are afraid to speak based on the misrepresentation of others out of fear of persecution.

or being convinced that the rapist is a victim with a greater need of protection than the victims.

Wait! who here's the rapist?

he might have tried to prove that no harm was done

Then I would have been lying. I never once stated no harm was done, simply that any harm done cannot be considered his fault.

What I said is that wulf3n is using a tactic in a conversation about rape that is common among those who blame the victims of rape for having been attacked, and that I wish he would avoid such tactics.

If you think my arguments are the same as rape apologists then you couldn't have misunderstood either concept any greater.

For instance:
Who here is the victim?
How am I saying it's the victims fault?
Why are you immediately assuming that if it's not the Microsoft Reps fault, that it then must be the fault of the offended party?

 

[JimB]

Neither your nor my quote reference sympathy nor people who endure bad publicity, and the "offensive statements" are contentious.

Okay, if you weren't trying to cause me to change my behavior by asking me to extend my sympathy to the Microsoft representative, then what was your goal?

Wait! Who here's the rapist?

Here? No one, that I know of. I'm describing a phenomenon, not making an accusation.

I never once stated no harm was done, simply that any harm done cannot be considered his fault.

I know you didn't say no harm was done. That is the context in which I brought it up.

If you think my arguments are the same as rape apologists then you couldn't have misunderstood either concept any greater.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say your argument is. I said your tactic is.

Who here is the victim?

I'm not sure how you're using the word "victim" here. To whom or what is it referring?

How am I saying it's the victim's fault?

I'm still unclear as to your meaning of "victim," so I might be missing the point, but: Here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.410308-Are-you-freakin-kidding-me?page=4#19728917], where you say anyone offended needs to grow up, is my best guess as to what you might be talking about.

Why are you immediately assuming that if it's not the Microsoft representative's fault, then it then must be the fault of the offended party?

This question makes so little sense to me that I cannot think of a response to it. If you'd like to try asking again with a different phrasing, I'll do what I can to answer it, but for now I have no idea what you're on about.

EDIT: Wait, I think I figured it out. Are you saying this is my interpretation of your position, maybe?

 

[wulf3n]

Okay, if you weren't trying to cause me to change my behavior by asking me to extend my sympathy to the Microsoft representative, then what was your goal?

Pointing out the hypocrisy of wanting a place to discuss issues without fear, by cultivating a situation in which you can't discuss issues out of fear of persecution.

You said if one doesn't speak then it's their choice, the reference was used to illustrate an action/inaction performed under duress is no choice.

Here? No one, that I know of. I'm describing a phenomenon, not making an accusation.

It comes across as you comparing the actions of the Microsoft rep to that of Rapist.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say your argument is. I said your tactic is.

Same difference.

I'm not sure how you're using the word "victim" here. To whom or what is it referring?

You tell me, you're the one who thinks I'm shifting fault onto the victim. So who is it I'm shifting blame onto?

I'm still unclear as to your meaning of "victim," so I might be missing the point, but: Here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.410308-Are-you-freakin-kidding-me?page=4#19728917], where you say anyone offended needs to grow up, is my best guess as to what you might be talking about.

Do you consider the offended the "victims" of this situation?

This question makes so little sense to me that I cannot think of a response to it. If you'd like to try asking again with a different phrasing, I'll do what I can to answer it, but for now I have no idea what you're on about.

EDIT: Wait, I think I figured it out. Are you saying this is my interpretation of your position, maybe?

Basically.

You seem to think I'm shifting fault onto the offended simply because I don't believe the Microsoft Rep is at fault. Which is untrue, I don't think either party is at fault.

 

[Al-Bundy-da-G]

Know what? No. Just no. We will not have another rape/sexism thread. I'm ending this now.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

are rape jokes funny? if its between friends in private who like that sort of humor, then fine what ever, good for you.

in an open forum/social media/public venue, rape jokes are not funny. not while its still a risk in society today that pretty much any woman (and possibly men) could be violated by such a disgusting act.

 

[JimB]

[I am] pointing out the hypocrisy of wanting a place to discuss issues without fear, by cultivating a situation in which you can't discuss issues out of fear of persecution.

Except you're not, because you're not using my words. I said that I want to discuss one issue; you then pluralized the noun, thereby changing the entire meaning of my statement, and attacked me for not living up to an ideal I never said I aspire to.

It comes across as you comparing the actions of the Microsoft representative to that of a Rapist[sic].

May I ask why you keep capitalizing the R in "rapist?" I don't mean to derail the conversation, but you've done it often enough that curiosity is eating at me.

To your specific point, though, I suppose I am comparing his actions sort of collaterally, but the point of the line you're taking issue with is not the actions of either a rapist or the Microsoft representative, but rather the community that shouts down a victim's voice.

Same difference.

It really isn't. That's why they're different words. An argument is a point made in a conversation; a tactic is, in this situation, a method for conveying that point.

You tell me, you're the one who thinks I'm shifting fault onto the victim. So who is it I'm shifting blame onto?

I am not interested in blame. I am interested in the conversation's focus being shifted away from the feelings of those who have reason to object to the cavalier introduction of rape as a topic to the feelings of those who introduced it.

Do you consider the offended the "victims" of this situation?

I...guess you could say so, though I think it requires the word "victim" to be stretched fairly thin, and on those grounds I'd prefer not to use it. There's a reason I've been saying "the people who object to his statement" rather than "the victims."

 

[Venom 3135]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. This is not a rape joke, this is "banter". You'd say it to any of your friends (If you were a douche) not just a girl. But apparently, just because a woman was involved, it's a rape joke. I really find it hard to believe that something so innocent could possibly be picked up as a rape joke. Fair enough, it was terrible scripting and was pretty stereo-typically sexist, but I simply refuse to believe that that was a rape joke.

 

[00slash00]

when i was watching it last week i felt it was fairly obvious that it was a reference to rape. i wouldnt say i was offended by it, but it did make me pretty uncomfortable.

 

[William Ossiss]

And yet; not a single one of these places says a THING about the next match between these two. You know, the one where she kicked his virtual face in.

Context.. Yes. It IS important.

 

[ShiningAmber]

say something like that

And that's the real issue at hand "Something like that"

If the scenario was guy said "You just got Raped!" after beating the host, there wouldn't be a discussion, there'd be a forum of people saying "That was an incredibly stupid thing to say at E3, and has no place in gaming culture".

But that's not what happened.

What was said was not so clear cut. It was an obscure statement with many different meanings.

Is my inference of it being a benign statement referring to the unpleasantness of being defeated on stage any more valid than your inference of it being a rape joke. No, but your inference has consequences.

What I'm seeing here is a lot of people say me, me, me. I'm offended, I find that offensive, I shouldn't have to hear that, but very few people saying, did HE intend it as a rape joke, did HE intend to be offensive, is it rational to think what HE said constitutes a rape joke?

As many have said before a person is not responsible for the Inference of others, yet here we are, blaming someone for our inferences.

Yes, I am saying I'm offended. Why? I'm a survivor. The first thing of I thought of when he said that was 'rape'. No, I'm not apologizing for it. I shouldn't have to.

I don't really care if it was intended or not. It really wasn't needed and it bothered me. It bothered me. If it didn't bother you, fine. But, I'm allowed to have things bother me. I didn't choose to let it offend me or bother me. But, it did.

I'm sorry that my past makes certain things offensive to me. If I could stop it, I would. Trust me. I'm sorry my inference has consequences. I don't think that's really my fault. I didn't choose to be raped, contrary to what a lot of culture would say.

It happened. Sorry people feel different things than you. I can express that, but don't downplay that the way I feel is incorrect. You obviously feel the way I think is wrong. I'm telling you that I can't control it. I'm vocal enough to say I didn't like it and it reminded me of something I don't want to think about. That isn't wrong.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

are rape jokes funny? if its between friends in private who like that sort of humor, then fine what ever, good for you.

in an open forum/social media/public venue, rape jokes are not funny. not while its still a risk in society today that pretty much any woman (and possibly men) could be violated by such a disgusting act.

Everyone in society today is at risk of being murdered, and jokes about that are not taboo in an open forum/social media/public venue.

yes but there is a difference between rape and murder. or can you not see that? try having some empathy

 

[wulf3n]

snip

snip

Neither of you seem to understand my position, I've tried to explain it, but no matter what I say you keep falling back on arguments I'm not making, or beliefs I don't hold.

I've exhausted my vocabulary, I don't think I can express my opinion any different than this last statement.

You're not at fault. He's not at fault. Blame should go to the person at fault.

If this is not understood, nothing else can be gained from my participation in this thread, and I'll bid you all good day.

 

[JimB]

You're not at fault. He's not at fault. Blame should go to the person at fault.

I do not care about blame or fault. They are childish and irrelevant. Neither blame nor fault interest me, and I would have given up on this mindless repetition a day ago, except that your constant insistence that we discuss is has raised my hackles and I intend to see this through now. You can feel free to assign or absolve blame and fault all you want, but the closest I come to caring about those things is caring about responsibility. If people want to hold the Microsoft representative responsible for his actions, then I am completely serene with it.

 

[wulf3n]

but the closest I come to caring about those things is caring about responsibility.

And what responsibility is that?

It can't be for how others infer ones statement as you've already said that's not the case.

Inferences are formed entirely in the minds of the audience

I do not care about blame or fault.

If you didn't we wouldn't be here.

 

[Dark Knifer]

I did not realise this was a rape joke until well after the event and I was aware of the joke for a long time.

Didn't strike me as that type of joke, just normal trash talk and everyone came down on them because she happened to be a girl.