Argument I had...

[Kopikatsu]

So, I had an argument with my grandmother. It went like this.

TV guy: "We want to remind everyone that this is just a test, there is no actual emergency."
Me: "When they tell you not to panic, that's when you panic."
Grandmother: "That's because you should listen to [The Government]"
M: "Why not?"
G: "Because they lie."
M: "Why do they lie?"
G: "To get what they want."
M: "What do they want?"
G: "Money and power."
M: "Those are means. What's the goal?
G: "That is the goal. To get money and power."
M: "You use money buy things and you use power to obtain other things. What is it that they want? What is their ultimate goal?"
G: "Power is the goal. God is the ultimate power. Omniscience. They want power."

I then dropped the conversation because she was starting to go into what I consider 'goatfuck crazy territory'.

Anyway, I was wondering if people think that power is indeed an 'end'. Personally, as shown, I think that it's just a means to get what you want.

If you think that it is an end, why? Can you offer some kind of explanation for why power can be a valid goal?

I ask because I'm not getting a decent answer out of her. (For instance, she insists that I'm wrong when I said that Fluorine is the ninth element on the periodic table and keeps saying that the symbol for Fluorine is Fl when it's F. When I tell her to look it up, she just says 'No, I'm right.")

 

[Anchupom]

I think she's confusing "dominion" with "power". Power and money help you get dominion, like... you know... RULING OVER THE WORLD FOR NO APPARENT REASON.

But that still doesn't really give a justified CAUSE...
You've made me confuse myself now.

Also, "goatfuck crazy" is an amazing expression and I intend on using it henceforth.

 

[MysticToast]

I think of it like this: To me, obtaining Skyrim is a goal. Skyrim is also something you use. Why can't it apply with power? Power is something that can be used, like you said, but how come it can't also be a goal.

 

[OriginalLadders]

I don't think power is craved as an end in and of itself, but that the security it provides is the goal. After all pretty much everyone feels safest when they fell in control of a situation, people who crave power want to control every situation that affects them in any way.

 

[PunkyMcGee]

I thoght the goal is knowledge. because knowledge is power.

seriously I can't think of how to word my argument. The concept is a bit too intangible for me to put into words. but I side with the grandmother.

one more thing. about your example, Why on earth did you have an argument about Fluorine?

 

[chadachada123]

So, I had an argument with my grandmother. It went like this.

TV guy: "We want to remind everyone that this is just a test, there is no actual emergency."
Me: "When they tell you not to panic, that's when you panic."
Grandmother: "That's because you should listen to [The Government]"
M: "Why not?"
G: "Because they lie."
M: "Why do they lie?"
G: "To get what they want."
M: "What do they want?"
G: "Money and power."
M: "Those are means. What's the goal?
G: "That is the goal. To get money and power."
M: "You use money buy things and you use power to obtain other things. What is it that they want? What is their ultimate goal?"
G: "Power is the goal. God is the ultimate power. Omniscience. They want power."

I then dropped the conversation because she was starting to go into what I consider 'goatfuck crazy territory'.

Anyway, I was wondering if people think that power is indeed an 'end'. Personally, as shown, I think that it's just a means to get what you want.

If you think that it is an end, why? Can you offer some kind of explanation for why power can be a valid goal?

I ask because I'm not getting a decent answer out of her. (For instance, she insists that I'm wrong when I said that Fluorine is the ninth element on the periodic table and keeps saying that the symbol for Fluorine is Fl when it's F. When I tell her to look it up, she just says 'No, I'm right.")

I would say that money is a means but power is both a means and a goal.

For one, power provides peace of mind, since with power you don't have to worry about, say, not getting your way with something.

Some want power for other reasons, sure, but I don't think it illogical to simply want power just to have power, or, in other terms, want power just to be able to do whatever they want without being confined by the law.

 

[CRRPGMykael]

Well, just the fact of having money and power makes a person feel better about themselves, which in a way, makes them happier(sort of, I guess). That's the goal(kind of). As for Fluorine, it is indeed the chemical element with the atomic number 9, and it is, indeed, represented with 'F'(not that you needed any more proof anyway).

 

[SidingWithTheEnemy]

You have a nice grandma. Visit her often, she seems to be worth it.

Anyway, I think this "more power" concept is connected to greed. I think greed is the "motivator" here. Greed in the sense of "even moar poWer". The goal is to be superior or in charge achieved by money and power through greed.

 

[Kopikatsu]

I thoght the goal is knowledge. because knowledge is power.

seriously I can't think of how to word my argument. The concept is a bit too intangible for me to put into words. but I side with the grandmother.

one more thing. about your example, Why on earth did you have an argument about Fluorine?

We argue about most things. I think she's insane.

Like she believes that humans learned how to fly (As in, make airplanes) from a crashed spaceship. Because she read it in a book from the non-fiction section of the library.

As I said, goatfuck crazy.

So, I had an argument with my grandmother. It went like this.

TV guy: "We want to remind everyone that this is just a test, there is no actual emergency."
Me: "When they tell you not to panic, that's when you panic."
Grandmother: "That's because you should listen to [The Government]"
M: "Why not?"
G: "Because they lie."
M: "Why do they lie?"
G: "To get what they want."
M: "What do they want?"
G: "Money and power."
M: "Those are means. What's the goal?
G: "That is the goal. To get money and power."
M: "You use money buy things and you use power to obtain other things. What is it that they want? What is their ultimate goal?"
G: "Power is the goal. God is the ultimate power. Omniscience. They want power."

I then dropped the conversation because she was starting to go into what I consider 'goatfuck crazy territory'.

Anyway, I was wondering if people think that power is indeed an 'end'. Personally, as shown, I think that it's just a means to get what you want.

If you think that it is an end, why? Can you offer some kind of explanation for why power can be a valid goal?

I ask because I'm not getting a decent answer out of her. (For instance, she insists that I'm wrong when I said that Fluorine is the ninth element on the periodic table and keeps saying that the symbol for Fluorine is Fl when it's F. When I tell her to look it up, she just says 'No, I'm right.")

I would say that money is a means but power is both a means and a goal.

For one, power provides peace of mind, since with power you don't have to worry about, say, not getting your way with something.

Some want power for other reasons, sure, but I don't think it illogical to simply want power just to have power, or, in other terms, want power just to be able to do whatever they want without being confined by the law.

That last part is what I mean. 'Be able to do whatever they want without being confined by the law'. Government is the law. It's not a person, it's not a group of individuals...it's an institution run by hundreds of thousands of people. What could 'they' (using that term loosely) want? What are they trying to accomplish that is currently outside of their means?

That's what I don't get. I'm sure if I bugged my grandmother enough she would say 'World domination', but...so many problems with that. So so many.

 

[Tonythion]

Well most people actually want just power. They also don't know what to do with it. They just want it to make themselves feel big.

Some people, more manipulative and cunning people want power to RULE over people. They want to be the top dog.

The goal for the "evil", Government, opportunists or who ever just has the need to be big is to rule. To be above people.

But then again people just want money and power because it's what society tells us what we want. Strive and do what ever you can to get to the top. Because then you can buy beach houses and fast women and sexy cars. Or was it fast cars and sexy women?


No never mind it was fast women and sexy cars.

 

[Vicarious Reality]

"A living being seeks above all else to discharge its strength. Life itself is will to power. Nothing else matters."

 

[DrOswald]

You make the mistake of assuming that people are rational. Your grandmother is right that power/money itself is the goal of some people. Money and power are a means to an end, but sometimes people lose sight of that fact and instead become obsessed with the accumulation of wealth and power for its own sake. Money and power has become the ultimate objective even though that is not entirely rational. Politics in particular attracts the type of people who desire money and power for its own sake.

Never assume the world is a logical and rational place. Never assume that people, especially in large numbers such as in government bodies, are motivated by rationality. That is where you went wrong.

 

[WaReloaded]

I think we should all look towards Aristotle and his text, the Nicomachean Ethics, in an attempt to answer this question, albeit using a philosophy conceived around 335 to 323 BC. Aristotle believed and thus wrote that it's not power or wealth that should be ones end goal but rather, eudaimonia, or "flourishing" which is essentially happiness. However, Aristotle thought that eudaimonia could only be obtained by following his Mean, which essentially meant that one must be a male, over the age of 18, reasonably attractive, wealthy, educated and being able to both restrain and indulge in ones desires. How simple, right?

I just thought I'd take the time to share an interesting contrast to the modern conception of happiness, and how one can obtain it, namely, by being both powerful and wealthy. Plus, it gives me a chance to finally share the many years of information I picked up in Philosophy classes.

 

[Korolev]

Some people just like to rule. There are people who get a thrill out of ordering others around. I've met such people. They are scary. And, they are often the ones who end up in management positions.

Also, people want power because with power comes security. When you have a lot of power, your position in the world, and your lifestyle automatically become far more secure. You're not totally outside the whims of chance and randomness, but you become a lot less vulnerable to the turn of the wheel of fortune.

With power also comes prestige and ego. Realistically, no one ever needs more than 50 million dollars to live the life they want to live. But you get billionaires who accumulate vast fortunes, most of which they never ever spend. Why? Because there is something in them that drives them to get that wealth. The amount of zeroes in their paycheck MEANS something to them. I don't think it's a wise way to live, but that's the way they want to live. They derive personal satisfaction by earning huge amounts of money, even if practically it makes not one jot of difference in their lives.

Power has a lot of drawbacks: Being President of the US, for example, is NOT as great as it seems. Being dictator might be fun for a while, but you're constantly looking over your shoulder, aware of the fact that you might end up like Mr. Gaddafi. Stalin, for example, loved being in power, but that power came with a cost: His own wife committed suicide because she came to hate him so much, and he actually never fully recovered from it. He was hyper paranoid and had no real friends. And when he suffered a likely stroke which eventually killed him, all his "friends" gathered around his bed and slung insults at him instead of summoning a doctor to help him.

Being in power is annoying, more than anything. But these people still want it. Why? Prestige. These leaders and tyrants and politicians just.... derive some sort of satisfaction knowing that they got into the supreme executive position.

Another example is the role of Roman Consul during the Roman Republic. Becoming Consul was not easy - you had to compete with 400 or so other Senator. You had to work REAAAAALLLLY hard to distinguish your achievements from theirs. You had to be phenomenally wealthy to run for office, and you had to personally always lead troops into battle (a fair number of consuls got killed during Roman Wars). Not only that, while you were immune from prosecution while in office, the very minute your turn was up, you could (and often would be) prosecuted by your fellow senators, most of whom didn't like you. Terms only lasted one year, you ideally couldn't run for office twice in a row and you had to share power with an equal who also didn't like you. If anything went wrong in the republic, you'd often get blamed. Oh, and you had to be afraid of assassination.

But time and time again, wealthy romans, who had everything already, would risk it all to run for office. People like Crassus (wealthiest Roman - so wealthy he could hire his own private army) regularly demonstrated that you could very often accomplish just as much by NOT being in power... yet Crassus too wanted to be Consul. ALL the Roman Senators wanted to be Consul, despite the position being a burden.

Why? PRESTIGE. HONOUR. EGO. BEING the leader is often the only reward they want. The end is BEING in power. It's personal for them. They WANT power? Why? Because that's what they want. They want to rule. Nixon comes to mind when talking about an American example.

This is why politicians are so scary: They are these people. These enigmas of human beings - people who are neurologically bent to get power, no matter the cost. People don't just "Become" Prime Minister or President or Leader on the path of their careers - no, these people harbour a deep seated, powerful DESIRE to achieve high office... because that's what they want. That's all they want. The realm of politics naturally attracts the people who, ideally, are LEAST suited to run for office. But there's no other way. You can't just put the person who least wants to be president in office. You have to select from a pool of candidates who desperately, ferociously, NEED to be President, NEED to go down in the history books as a leader, who NEED to sit in that chair or in that room that the leaders sit in, to surround himself/herself with people who say "Mr.President" or "Madam President".

I am convinced that most of our politicians are psychopathic neurological basket-cases who aren't fit to run an ice-cream stand. And they are the ones who get into power, because they are compulsively driven by a NEED to be in power.