"And while you're NOT being like them, go ahead and beat the hell out of them because they deserve it!"Frozen Donkey Wheel2 said:
Arkham City.... Sexist?
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Now, was that a conscious pisstake on the thread, or a case in point of the subliminal sexism we've discussed?Dexter111 said:
Poor dialogue? Fine. Calling the game "sexist" is giving it too much credit. The writers just don't know how real thugs would talk.
As for Oversexualized Catwoman...She's supposed to be oversexualized. Wasn't she a former prostitute in some of the comic book storylines?
The movies have ruined Catwoman. They just keep getting worse.
As for Oversexualized Catwoman...She's supposed to be oversexualized. Wasn't she a former prostitute in some of the comic book storylines?
The movies have ruined Catwoman. They just keep getting worse.
Wait, people are arguing about a game being potentially sexist towards a fictional character?
Have you guys run out of real problems to talk about?
You murder people in some of the most inhumane ways in video games every day, but someone calls a female or two a *****, and that's a problem?
Seriously?
Have you guys run out of real problems to talk about?
You murder people in some of the most inhumane ways in video games every day, but someone calls a female or two a *****, and that's a problem?
Seriously?
Calling a woman a ***** IS sexist.Capitano Segnaposto said:
Thats kinda the point; these villians are written as vile sexist thugs.
I think if the writers were were albe they would have the thugs call Batman ************/cocksucker/****/****** (for example.).
The "T for Teen" friendly swear ***** therefore seems overused and jarring while nothing comparatively offensive gets thrown at Batman.
It's seams that the writers/developers could have picked up on this. While its contextually appropriate for thuggish convicts to be vile it's inadvertently unbalanced by the fact that they had to keep it clean.
I was about to say something, but every single word from my mouth was just stolen by this guy.Sizzle Montyjing said:
I never understood why calling "*****" to a woman is sexist (in a videogame/movie/whatever, by guys that are attempting to kill the character), but a female enemy calling "asshole" to a man isn´t (again in a videogame, I don´t want to be flooded with super rage thanks to misunderstandings)
Again, the issue is that "*****" is a gendered insult which at all times carries the baggage of being primarily derogatory towards a single sex.JamesStone said:
Calling a woman "*****" is making a distinction of her sex as part of your insult.
Calling a man "*****" is reducing him to what is perceived as an inferior state.
I.e woman.
That is what is problematic, and that is what bespeaks this subliminal sexism. The game doesn't allow what is considered "harsher" language, but somehow ***** is deemed acceptable in spite of its connotations.
I think ACman hit the nail on the head with this post:
Like I've said previously, I wouldn't dream of accusing the writers of being consciously sexist. But I think there's a certain cluelessness to this which is worth addressing.ACman said:
I find it interesting that they take offense at the word "*****" but not the fact that catwoman was clearly written to be dumber than a box full of rocks.BreakfastMan said:
considering that the character is CATwoman, we're lucky that the mooks didn't used another word more often.
Whether it's PG or not isn't the point. It is PG so "*****" gets thrown with abandon while anything comparatively offesive that could be thrown at Batman is not used. (And it's not just thugs who use the word, a friendly uses it as well.)GreatTeacherCAW said:
This leads to a jarring tone that is inadvertently sexist; Most of the male characters in the game throw gender specific taunts at Catwoman while the most offensive thing that they say about Batman is that he's a freak.
And there are very different ways of viewing "sexuality." In this game, her "sexuality" seems to be based on presenting her as a sexual object. Catwoman's sexuality used to be based on her own sexual identity, not one "being sexually desirable to others" alone.Melopahn said:
It's one thing for a woman to indicate, "I enjoy sex and am not shy about that." That's a woman with a strong sense of her own sexuality. It's another thing for a woman to pander to the sexual expectations of men. That's a woman (usually written by a man) who is subservient to the sexuality of men. She isn't "displaying sexuality." She is "being sexualized."
You know, most of the times, people who are insulting women don´t use the word "*****" as some woman-only insult to deminish them. They use it because it´s the simpliest, yet effective insult in the book. A good example: cocksucker. I´ve never seen anyone, male or female, calling a woman a "cocksucker". It´s much more insulting to men, even if said man is gay. It´s used because it´s an easy, yet extremely offensive word. And the Arkham City thugs are a bunch of idiotic rapists with no respect for ANYTHING. Even if they´re calling Catwoman a ***** because their sexists, it´s not because the designers are sexists, it´s because the thugs are idiotic rapists.LiquidGrape said:
Usually, the more we look for hidden meanings and subliminal messages in everything, the more damage we do to the point that we´re trying to make. I for one, don´t want to see almost every woman turn into that imaginary "TV liberal" that pepper-spray´s you if you even ask for directions.
They aren't. Batman is the hero. He is strong, unyielding, determined. He is characterized and drawn that way. Can you imagine a skinny Batman? It doesn't work.Fiz_The_Toaster said:
Inherent problem with this prattle. The game isn't sexist, the characters calling her ***** are. They are narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths, and you're wondering if they are using '*****' too much? While being kicked in the face? Seriously?
I'm completely hip to the feminist scene but I am pretty sure the word '*****' would come out of me if I was Kicked In The Face by a woman. This argument is nonsensical and more than a little trite when you consider this is one woman who by all definitions, IS a *****, getting called one. Luckily, the point of this game is that the ***** gets her kicks in and the people she kicks have it coming.
Now to see my post get cherry picked...
I'm completely hip to the feminist scene but I am pretty sure the word '*****' would come out of me if I was Kicked In The Face by a woman. This argument is nonsensical and more than a little trite when you consider this is one woman who by all definitions, IS a *****, getting called one. Luckily, the point of this game is that the ***** gets her kicks in and the people she kicks have it coming.
Now to see my post get cherry picked...
I swear, every time I sneak around Arkham Asylum as Batman, all I ever hear are the Arkham inmates bitching about one thing or another...
...no? Someone else already do it? Fine, whatever.
...no? Someone else already do it? Fine, whatever.
As you indicated the PM was a system mistake, I've taken the liberty of transferring the comment back to the thread proper:
On the topic: Your opinion of "what Catwoman was made for" is just that -- your opinion. You feel that she was created basically as a prop, meant only to serve a purpose for Batman's character. A lot of people feel that she is, in fact, a character in her own right. Given that she has, in the past, had her very own comic book series (and even that awful movie), I'd say that particular opinion has far more evidence than yours. So, let's not pretend that you have exclusive knowledge of "how the author made her."
Saying that she "represents sexuality" would not be inaccurate. Saying that she is only "an object to give batman a love interest" is wildly inaccurate. It is also extremely narrow. The Joker has his own identity as a character, and he also serves as a "foil" for Batman. He "represents" certain concepts, but also has an identity.
In Arkham City, her sexuality is being presented in a male-centric way. The comics have often done a much better job of giving her independent sexuality. Not perfect, but better than this. They have incorrectly presented that sexuality, in a way that is subversively sexist -- she behaves, dresses, and speaks in a way that is intended solely to be titillating to men, rather than empowering toward women.
Again, there is a difference. A woman who likes sex, and isn't afraid to say so, or a woman who knows what makes her sexy, and shows it off a little bit because she enjoys that power -- these are "women with a strong sense of sexuality. A woman who dresses and speaks in unnatural ways to titillate the audience -- that's pandering to the male demographic. It is using a female image to please men, rather than as an independent female character. If you can't see the difference, there is little help for you.
Your tone is not conducive to a discussion. That's all I will say about that.Melopahn said:
On the topic: Your opinion of "what Catwoman was made for" is just that -- your opinion. You feel that she was created basically as a prop, meant only to serve a purpose for Batman's character. A lot of people feel that she is, in fact, a character in her own right. Given that she has, in the past, had her very own comic book series (and even that awful movie), I'd say that particular opinion has far more evidence than yours. So, let's not pretend that you have exclusive knowledge of "how the author made her."
Saying that she "represents sexuality" would not be inaccurate. Saying that she is only "an object to give batman a love interest" is wildly inaccurate. It is also extremely narrow. The Joker has his own identity as a character, and he also serves as a "foil" for Batman. He "represents" certain concepts, but also has an identity.
In Arkham City, her sexuality is being presented in a male-centric way. The comics have often done a much better job of giving her independent sexuality. Not perfect, but better than this. They have incorrectly presented that sexuality, in a way that is subversively sexist -- she behaves, dresses, and speaks in a way that is intended solely to be titillating to men, rather than empowering toward women.
Again, there is a difference. A woman who likes sex, and isn't afraid to say so, or a woman who knows what makes her sexy, and shows it off a little bit because she enjoys that power -- these are "women with a strong sense of sexuality. A woman who dresses and speaks in unnatural ways to titillate the audience -- that's pandering to the male demographic. It is using a female image to please men, rather than as an independent female character. If you can't see the difference, there is little help for you.
People using the argument that Catwoman would be called "b***" by people fighting her - this isn't right. I mean I absolutely agree that people would do that, but no one calls Batman an a$$hole, or a f@gg0t or anything like that. I could totally see that happening if a gang of insane criminals were fighting somebody, but it doesn't happen. Yeah, the over-use of ***** is sexist because the character is treated differently solely on the basis of sex.
Is it still the best game I've played in a really long time? Absolutely! Is there sexism in a ton of awesome movies and comics and music? Definitely.
I was playing while my girlfriend was in the room and was a little embarrassed for the game whenever Catwoman spoke... just this absolutely over-the-top heavy panting voice. I think they tried way too hard to make her sound sexy, it comes off as (to me) pretty ridiculous. The only male equivalent I can think of is Christian Bale's Batman voice. In this game, Batman doesn't speak in a ludicrously "masculine" voice - as in the mode of say, Gears of War characters.
So all in all, Catwoman is where they dropped the ball in terms of integrity and believability, for me personally. ON THE OTHER HAND... they sort of made up for it by having Catwoman be completely AWESOME to play as. I would say the way she handles in combat is perhaps better than Batman, she definitely has some way cooler moves.
Is it still the best game I've played in a really long time? Absolutely! Is there sexism in a ton of awesome movies and comics and music? Definitely.
I was playing while my girlfriend was in the room and was a little embarrassed for the game whenever Catwoman spoke... just this absolutely over-the-top heavy panting voice. I think they tried way too hard to make her sound sexy, it comes off as (to me) pretty ridiculous. The only male equivalent I can think of is Christian Bale's Batman voice. In this game, Batman doesn't speak in a ludicrously "masculine" voice - as in the mode of say, Gears of War characters.
So all in all, Catwoman is where they dropped the ball in terms of integrity and believability, for me personally. ON THE OTHER HAND... they sort of made up for it by having Catwoman be completely AWESOME to play as. I would say the way she handles in combat is perhaps better than Batman, she definitely has some way cooler moves.