Arkham City.... Sexist?

[Pedro The Hutt]

Well, no, they're not.

It's a prison populated by uncouth males who, apparently, don't use any racist terms when discussing each other. Why does sexism come into it, all of a sudden? Why not racism? if we're going to make them seem like typical "uncouth males" then why is it that the only time any particular discrimination rears it's ugly head is when they're referring to Catwoman?

Because it is a T-for-teen rated game, as prescribed by the DC licence.

"*****" is far less inflammatory term than even the mildest racial taunts like "******".

But that is the root of the problem, it unintentionally implies that it's less offensive to berate women than it is to berate people of colour, while the two are certainly equally offensive.

 

[Treblaine]

They use the term "*****" to refer to people on their own side. And outright telling me I don't understand the weight a specific racist slur carries? I'm sorry? by that logic, we'd have banned all use of the word from every form of entertainment, even that which depicts realistic prison environments - regardless of intent of the writer.


So then, if we're going to disregard that one minor point, that leaves the entire remainder of my argument, as well as the fact that aforementioned thugs still manage to give the women more of a private verbal beatdown behind their backs even if you delete the whole "*****" thing, to a degree which borders on perverse. Even the Dark Knight himself seems to be getting some kind of perverse dominant glee when he gets to manhandle Harley quinn.

I'm not factoring the fucking age rating into this because it's an idiotic and inconsistent manner of judging a game's content and the fact that it owuld loose them the DC license is awful. But if we do, then we could see the term "*****" when applied to women as a word symbolic of the historic oppression of women and the ongoing mysoginy of today, bringing with it the overy symbolism of women as somthing less than men, people who don't deserve equal treatment. And since this attitude has existed since the stone age, then we can also claim the whole historical weight/meaning angle applies.

Bam: now we can say that it's just as offensive as the term "******".

Not that it matters - if you're supposed to be portraying a bunch of dickheads getting beat up by a black superhero, having the dickheads call him "******" is perfectly acceptable. because they're racists within a fictionalised world. If the author kept portraying black people as somehow inferior then there'd be an enormous red flag popping up, but if Luke Cage suddenly gets racial epithets slung at him whenever he beats the crap out of thugs, no-one is going to bat an eye because they're thugs, they're angry, they're idiots. As far as the narrative is concerned, the racism is only present within the characters, NOT the writer. There's no reason why that should be given a higher age rating than T.

Anyway, that's the problem - the exact phrases used aren't the issue; the issue, as I pointed out earlier, is the apparent attitude of whoever wrote the game.

Also, you don't have to keep telling me what the T in the rating stands for.

Oh, and your sister's use of the term for her friend doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. I'veh eard black people call each other ****** plenty of times, I've heard people get jokingly slagged off for whatever particular social or racial group they belong to by close friends in the spirit of well-meaning joking around. Again, INTENDED meaning is the issue, and it's not like your sister's intended meaning changes the intended meaning of every other utterance of the word.

Look, realistic depictions of prison life don't aim for a T-rating. And the artist IS constrained by the T-rating as per the DC-license. You CANNOT disregard that, the limitations of the age rating DO stand because we aren't talking hypothetical, we are talking about an ACTUAL product that is being released. And it should be noted that the term is used all of a handful of times and is the worst thing she is ever called by the worst of people, it is NOT overused. In extended fight sequences you won't hear the term at all.

"Even the Dark Knight himself seems to be getting some kind of perverse dominant glee when he gets to manhandle Harley quinn."

Any evidence to support this? Or is this like the time you said "Using UAVs for comabt is OBVIOUSLY a war crime" nonsense?

"Bam: now we can say that it's just as offensive as the term "******".

I'm not impressed by chain logic.

 

[Treblaine]

Because it is a T-for-teen rated game, as prescribed by the DC licence.

"*****" is far less inflammatory term than even the mildest racial taunts like "******".

But that is the root of the problem, it unintentionally implies that it's less offensive to berate women than it is to berate people of colour, while the two are certainly equally offensive.

>implies

That ain't the issue.

As to that issue, don't tell me that, tell the ESRB. And while you're at it, also tell the NAACP about your petition to downgrade the seriousness of "******" as a swear word in censors guidelines. Because they and other organisations rightfully have a lot of pull.

I'm not going to argue for that downgrading, because I pick my battles.

But "*****" is not such a serious epithet that it is sexist in such an extremely inflammatory way that it should not be used at all... or be restricted to M-rated games.

 

[Savagezion]

Well, no, they're not.

It's a prison populated by uncouth males who, apparently, don't use any racist terms when discussing each other. Why does sexism come into it, all of a sudden? Why not racism? if we're going to make them seem like typical "uncouth males" then why is it that the only time any particular discrimination rears it's ugly head is when they're referring to Catwoman?

Because it is a T-for-teen rated game, as prescribed by the DC licence.

"*****" is far less inflammatory term than even the mildest racial taunts like "******".

But that is the root of the problem, it unintentionally implies that it's less offensive to berate women than it is to berate people of colour, while the two are certainly equally offensive.

LOL. Man people are reading WAY too much into this. NO ONE is going to get that message from the game. I doubt any person anywhere is going to think "why aren't they using the term ****** in this game?" It is almost as if we are no longer on the subject of the game but instead social fallacies.

To steer this back on topic of the game's (not societies) alleged offenses, replace "******" with "****". That is a word they would use in reality.

However, ***** is not a female exclusive insult. The word ***** has began to have multiple uses as the word fuck. It isn't even always a noun, sometimes it is used as a verb or even an adjective. Hell, ***** could be used to mean "dainty" or "overbearing" depending on context.

 

[TheDooD]

I know this is the internet and all, but could you at least TRY and read some of the articles of the opposing viewpoint?

So far, I'm yet to see a single well thought out argument that this game DOESN'T pull some crap, and all I'm seeing in defence of it is the argument equivalent of people shrugging their shoulders and just turning around and walking away.

First off, if you are not familiar with Batman's lore, then fighting this battle is futile because anyone who bitches about comics but doesn't read them is the same thing as someone bitching about a game they haven't played. Everything being bitched about here is superficial crap. The entire argument against this game is formed on a glance at the source material and then disregards it. I bet over half of the people bitching about sexism couldn't tell me Catwoman's real name without googling it first.

I will forego a lot of topics of feminists rage unless they are out to destroy something great. This game shows you the beauty that is Catwoman, the character. See, I personally think DC fell ass backwards into something with Catwoman and they will only half admit it even, but there is a chance they did it intentionally. They sure as hell embraced it well and have always followed suit. That is, when you see Catwoman, don't look at her merely as a chick running around in leather being all hyper-sexualized. She is that if you only look at the shallow end of it - but she does go much deeper. She works as a wonderful metaphor for Bruce Wayne's twisted ass allure to his alter ego. Bruce Wayne is one seriously fucked up individual when you look at him. That man's TRUE alter ego is Bruce Wayne, not Batman. Superman actually IS Clark/Kal-El and Superman is something he does. Bruce is so obsessed with his alter ego, he has identity issues. He is seduced by his own cape and symbol and his vision of justice.
Catwoman and Batman's chemistry is so good because of this. She is a twisted ass chick right along side of him. Her parallels with Batman is not the only good things about her character but it is why it is important to have her show a strong sexual identity when placed near Batman.

Sometimes hyper-sexualization can be validated and not be offensive. Hell, sometimes it can even be the best possible way to get a point across. Not only for story-telling purposes but in real social situations, which story telling is based on. The reason people dismiss the argument so much is because there is nothing here to address. The entire argument against the game is fabricated. In order to agree you have to completely disregard the source material, be against semi-realistic dialogue expressing contempt for someone, assume it is possible but not likely a woman would wear form hugging attire.

I can tell you been keeping up with DC for a while. You can see why Bruce's main lovers are Talia al Ghul and Selina Kyle. Bruce could easily take over the League of Assassins. Yet he doesn't want to kill eventhough he clearly shows he ruthless, more then willing to break bones and seriously injure his foes. On the other had he can be an expert thief with little effort but he doesn't want to lower himself to being a criminal. He let these two women get close to him because they're basically fractured parts of his own personality. Hell almost every villain Bruce has encountered is a part of him overall.

OT

These are hardened criminals that wouldn't really know what to do if they got their hand on one of the many DC women that were in Arkham City. They're more or less just rude with sexist over tones but could you blame'em really.

 

[FFHAuthor]

Did the author forget that you just because a character says something, it doesn't mean the writer believes it? Wow, basic literature 101 failure.

Shhhh....that might be too complicated a concept to start folks out on.

 

[sarttan]

Here's my counter-analysis of the accusation. Not argument, this will take a bit to explain.


I may be completely off since the game isn't out on Steam yet, but this my Outsider's perspective on it.

Anyone who also played Arkham Asylum must have realized by now that the writers for these games are going back to the good ol' comic book and animated tv days, and they're pulling it off quite well. Anyone who has read the comics gets kicks out of The Joker acting like The Joker we know and love instead of, despite his good performance, Keith Ledger(r.i.p.)'s completely different interpretation of The Joker.

If people are complaining that the game could be sexist because of Catwoman is because SHE'S CATWOMAN! She has always been like this, and anyone who doesn't expect this clearly has never been exposed to much anything related to Batman ever. Even the recent animated series The Batman(*cough* *wheeze*) managed to get her right to a degree.

Also, DC has always had character design be partially based upon conditions. Batman is escentially fighting in the slums, so just about everyone looks like they recently came back from exploring the sewers, or getting their butts whooped(in an asylum perhaps...). Catwoman looks like shes also seen better days, but still able to pull off being Catwoman none the less. If you don't like her outfit, look on the bright side. Her character design probably would have been more revealing if Square Enix was still working with the team. Look at Arkham Asylum and Harley's outfit or Ivy's lack thereof.

Also about the constant swearing, we are supposed to get poor impressions of the bad guys anyway. The more they insult her, the more fun it is to beat the snot out of them in 2 seconds.



Well thats what I think anyway. When it is available to me, I hope I'm off about this.

 

[Savagezion]

I can tell you been keeping up with DC for a while. You can see why Bruce's main lovers are Talia al Ghul and Selina Kyle. Bruce could easily take over the League of Assassins. Yet he doesn't want to kill eventhough he clearly shows he ruthless, more then willing to break bones and seriously injure his foes. On the other had he can be an expert thief with little effort but he doesn't want to lower himself to being a criminal. He let these two women get close to him because they're basically fractured parts of his own personality. Hell almost every villain Bruce has encountered is a part of him overall.

I only started following Batman in the late 80s. He was my first comic book I owned that I bought at a gas station with my allowance. Since then I have fallen out of comics and got back into them 3 times now and Batman is the sole contributor to why I picked them back up all 3 times. Batman is the reason I can never put comics down. I love some other comics too but every time I put comics down for a bit, Batman single-handedly draws me back in every damn time.

He is interesting for me because he is an idealist to the fullest but they always do such a great job of showing his limitations due to his humanity. Personally, I don't think Batman could ever have a real love interest. He will never marry because he is too fascinated by his own ideals that he could never make room for someone else to come in. I think Talia is the obvious best candidates from what I know of her but only because she is and isn't an idealist. However, Selina suffers from delusions of grandeur as Bruce does so it would never amount to anything beyond passion. However, this is not to say that Talia is aces for him. Batman is really just such an awesome tale of poetic injustice of sacrificing one's own life for for one's own idealism. I could go on and on about Batman. I think some of the best writing in all of comics is in Batman. It gets snubbed by many because it is also loved by 5 year old's boyhood fantasies but I just see it as good lore that can be appreciated by all ages. It's just really good stuff.

League of Assassins is one of those many things that are double sided for me. Part me thinks that would be awesome, but you have to sacrifice a huge part of the character for it so I think it would suck at the same time. Interesting stuff like that is why Batman is so awesome. Hell, it is possible Talia would hand it over to him in some fashion if written properly. But again, same thing but I think that would be worse because it robs Talia of conviction a bit for me personally.

 

[DeadlyYellow]

If there's anything with even a hint of any negative canotation towards a particular sex/religion/race, then it is immediately deemed sexist/whatever this word is/racist.

Welcome to the pansy generation. Flowers for everyone.

 

[TheCowman]

I've read through MOST of this thread and didn't see anyone else bring this up, so forgive me if it's been addressed already.

I was just wondering if the people counting the number of times '*****' was said were just counting when they heard it, or if they were keeping track of the phrases it was used in?

I'm just wondering, cause while I was playing Arkham City, I heard the phrase, "Afraid to fight me, Batman? I'm not surprised." more times than I could count. In Arkham Asylum, every fight I got into had "Don't let him hit you!" shouted in there at least once.

I bring this up because Arkham City is still a video game, and this aspect of video games is still very prevelant. Especially in open world/hub-based games were the milling NPCs can be heard repeating a limited number of phrases over and over. Heck, all the inmates in Arkham Asylum and Arkham City all seemed to have the same voice.

I'm just wondering if anyone considered that this may be a technical limitation more than a maturity one?

Some other possibilities;

Maybe the thugs' reactions to the two heroes are governed by the heroes' reaction to them. Catwoman's attitude is firmly set in the 'sassy' category. She struts through the bad guy's best defenses with a confident smirk and belittles their efforts to catch her with smooth, witty insults.

Sorta like a sexy Spiderman. And as a member of the Wrecking Crew most rightly said, "Everybody hates Spiderman." Therefore their reaction to her would be one of anger and frustration. They'd attempt to insult her back; but without her panache, their insults come out as childish and desperate.

Maybe this doesn't completely explain the reliance on the word '*****', but I'll point again to my first hypothesis.

Conversely, Batman's whole persona is designed to scare the shit outta people. He plays the part of the predator; the boogey-man lurking in the shadows. Tales of him have been so exaggerated that some thugs actually believe him to be some kind of monster.

So instead of the angry, insulting reaction that Catwoman engenders; the thugs react to Batman with desperation and terror.


I don't know if these are the answers or not. Like most things in the world, it probably falls somewhere neatly between the two extremes. These were just a couple questions that popped into my head while reading the comments.

 

[Pedro The Hutt]

Well, no, they're not.

It's a prison populated by uncouth males who, apparently, don't use any racist terms when discussing each other. Why does sexism come into it, all of a sudden? Why not racism? if we're going to make them seem like typical "uncouth males" then why is it that the only time any particular discrimination rears it's ugly head is when they're referring to Catwoman?

Because it is a T-for-teen rated game, as prescribed by the DC licence.

"*****" is far less inflammatory term than even the mildest racial taunts like "******".

But that is the root of the problem, it unintentionally implies that it's less offensive to berate women than it is to berate people of colour, while the two are certainly equally offensive.

LOL. Man people are reading WAY too much into this. NO ONE is going to get that message from the game. I doubt any person anywhere is going to think "why aren't they using the term ****** in this game?" It is almost as if we are no longer on the subject of the game but instead social fallacies.

To steer this back on topic of the game's (not societies) alleged offenses, replace "******" with "****". That is a word they would use in reality.

However, ***** is not a female exclusive insult. The word ***** has began to have multiple uses as the word fuck. It isn't even always a noun, sometimes it is used as a verb or even an adjective. Hell, ***** could be used to mean "dainty" or "overbearing" depending on context.

Considering some lights are going up in the blogosphere about this I would dare say that some people ~are~ getting that message from the game.
And as an aside, I do believe that the guys of Extra Credits once said that there is no such thing as overanalysing or overthinking a game.

 

[Savagezion]

Considering some lights are going up in the blogosphere about this I would dare say that some people ~are~ getting that message from the game.
And as an aside, I do believe that the guys of Extra Credits once said that there is no such thing as overanalysing or overthinking a game.

Uh oh, my opinion contradicts an opinion of the Extra Credits team, I clearly must be the one who is wrong about that. I think you can over analyze or over think anything. But even if you want to go with the Extra Credits teams take on that, you can analyze something and come to a false conclusion. Most call that over analyzing things because there is a point that gets crossed where you start pointing at things that aren't really there. This is exactly how fabricating media works. That is exactly why National Enquirer is still in business.

As for the blogs, have you ever heard of Nerd Baiting? I bet a lot of these "blogs" receive money if enough traffic comes through. Fox News pulls this crap all the time. (Bulletstorm will make you a rapist, Mass Effect is a porn simulator with interactive sex scenes, etc.)

I don't believe that people are seriously out there thinking that this game is being sexist... Let me rephrase that. I don't think any rational people are seriously out there thinking that this game is being sexist. What does that even mean in this context anyway? Having a character in a story call a chick a ***** is sexist? What exactly is the argument being made here? How is this game being sexist?

 

[JdaS]

Oh for Fuck's sake people, why are we even lending credibility to this horseshit by talking about it?

I mean Jesus Christ, are you really surprised? Have you not heard all this a BILLION times before? Do we have to dance this dance again? Do we really have to go over this Every. Fucking. Time?!?

NO! The game isn't fucking sexist, it's most likely just a writing quirk that meant that one, very common, insult that just HAPPENS only to be applicable to women ended up being slightly over-used.

And so what? SO. FUCKING. WHAT?!?

And don't even get me started on the "Baaaaaaw!!! Catwoman wears a skimpy costume" argument, my head will explode from rage.

Just because this type of discussion has happened before doesn't mean that it's not an important discussion to have.

You ever considered why those words are only applicable to women? Or what that implies?

Couple of very obvious problems with this one:

1. It's the BAD GUYS that are calling her a *****. It's the BAD GUYS beating her up. That means the game is taking a bunch of sexist assholes and saying, "See these guys? Don't be like them!" And hell, even if BATMAN called her a *****, the game still wouldn't be sexist. And here's why:

2. It's not sexist to call a single woman a *****. It's only sexist if you say ALL women are bitches. I mean, lets face it...Catwoman is not exactly Mother Teresa. But guess what? It's OK for Catwoman to be a total ***** without implying sexism. Just because SHE'S a *****, that doesn't mean that all women are bitches.

3. I'm sure these thugs have nothing but compliments for Batman, then? Wait, I forgot. Only women can be victims of sexism.

I really hate living in a culture where all of this is not EXTREMELY obvious.

I don't even understand how these people think. This guy is playing Arkham City, doesn't like the overuse of the word ***** and suddenly decides it's sexist. It reminds me of the infamous RE5 debate of "shooting black zombies in Africa. RASIST???"

All I know is, if I were a hardcore criminal with an IQ of 55 and lots of insecurity, and there was a woman running around in a catsuit kicking me and my colleagues asses ***** is what I'd call her. Yeah, ***** works.

Some people really need to stop reading entirely too much into this kind of stuff.

I loved the RE5 debate, mostly cause people went mostly centered the conversation around the totally non-racist stuff merely because it was disturbing (aids epidemic imagery anyone?) and completely ignored the very racist tribal sections.

Though, we already know Japan has a very racist culture, not in the hatred sense, just in the "you are not one of us and can never be like us" sense, Japanese heritage is intrinsically tied with their sense of self and in turn, with their sense of normalcy.

I'll give you that, although I'd consider them xenophobic myself. But that's me discussing semantics.

Still, I must maintain my position that however unfortunate, this saturation (see what I did there with the whole RE5 thing?) of the word ***** should not be grounds to dismiss the game. I get that it's an important subject and I don't condone calling women bitches or whores or whatever either. I just feel that the context it was used in the game was appropriate. Sadly overused but still nothing to grab the pitchforks over.

EDIT: And by this I mean that not-so-insulting options could have been used in the same vein of calling Batman "that damn Batfreak" or whatever while still using the word ***** with less gleeful abandon.

 

[Transhuman Plus]

Idk about sexist, but id have to say that catwoman is a walking fetish whatever, heck ive seen dominatrixes dress more casually/modestly/idk what word im looking for here.

She actually was a dominatrix in some continuities.

I was just wondering if the people counting the number of times '*****' was said were just counting when they heard it, or if they were keeping track of the phrases it was used in?

I'm just wondering, cause while I was playing Arkham City, I heard the phrase, "Afraid to fight me, Batman? I'm not surprised." more times than I could count. In Arkham Asylum, every fight I got into had "Don't let him hit you!" shouted in there at least once.

I bring this up because Arkham City is still a video game, and this aspect of video games is still very prevelant. Especially in open world/hub-based games were the milling NPCs can be heard repeating a limited number of phrases over and over. Heck, all the inmates in Arkham Asylum and Arkham City all seemed to have the same voice.

Not just that, but the enemy dialogue has to seem like something that would be commonly said.
"Don't let him hit you!" sounds jarring when you hear it every single fight (which is probably why you remembered it), but a majority of inmates calling Catwoman "*****" doesn't seem out of place at all.

 

[Treblaine]

Still, I must maintain my position that however unfortunate, this saturation (see what I did there with the whole RE5 thing?) of the word ***** should not be grounds to dismiss the game. I get that it's an important subject and I don't condone calling women bitches or whores or whatever either. I just feel that the context it was used in the game was appropriate. Sadly overused but still nothing to grab the pitchforks over.

EDIT: And by this I mean that not-so-insulting options could have been used in the same vein of calling Batman "that damn Batfreak" or whatever while still using the word ***** with less gleeful abandon.

Look, as a free ideals individual I too oppose any oppressive sexism claims against a game that even has "saturated" use of the term "*****" for how it can lead to unreasonable censorship or restriction.

But in Arkham City the term is most definitely NOT saturated. In the whole DLC the term is used all of 3 or 4 times and not a repeated cuss word for in dynamic combat, but single context dialogue that is not even said directly to her face. Catwoman is NOT constantly being called that while in combat, it does not seem to even be in the verbal library of the AI that is fighting you.

I respect the artist for deciding to use this term, I can see how it is used as a tactical "B-bomb" to set the tension for the stealth sequence to make clear how the goons feel towards Catwoman, particularly how serious their lethal intent is.

And there isn't even anything obscene about the term "*****", it is a GENUINE term for a female canine in appropriate use. It is NOT a reference to a sexual or excretory bodily part or bodily function. It is NOT connotative with extreme violence in the same way the N-word is associated with Racist Lynching.

In literal connotation, ***** is the equivalent (though NOT the same as) calling a man a "bull", "buck" or "dog".

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

What the hell? The hardened criminals yell at Catwoman for being a *****? How sexist! Oh my god, that's horrible. Fucking hell this is retarded.

Hahaha, if I could give you a big manly slap on the back, I would

 

[RJ Dalton]

Oh, yes, it's totally sexist. What they should have said is "You nasty, unlikable woman who is in no way representative of the entirety of women in the world, despite being strong enough to beat up us burly men with ease. Oh, you make me so angry!"
Yeah, they totally should have said that. In Marvin the Martian's voice, because they're clearly not from this world.