Armed civilian, 17, shoots 2 dead during Kenosha happening

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Aegix Drakan

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Yeah, sort of like how the point about attacking a fleeing person with a gun With a gun who had just shot one of them and they could reasonably assume he would go on to kill MORE of them if they didn't disarm him was ignored and was somehow turned into "AHA!! So you think that armed thugs should be given free reign!!!"

Very unfortunate.
Legal Precedent is a thing.

If you don't prosecute the guy coming in from a few states over using an illegal gun, putting himself deliberately into a dangerous situation, and then proceeding to get spooked, and kill someone, then run away and proceed to kill another person, THEN flee back to his home state instead of going to the cops to try to figure out who is at blame for the lives that were just lost...

Well, it gets harder to prosecute the NEXT guy that does it because they can go "You didn't punish the last guy who did it, why are you punishing ME?!"

At the very least, this needs to go to court so the full blame of this guy can be established. Which, considering the circumstances, is a lot of blame.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Guess what 5.56mm is translated into inches? 5.56x45mm is the standard NATO round used in the M16, M4, M27 and M249. So he's most definitely using a modern military round, especially since the 5.56mm superseded the 7.62mm as the US main firearm caliber. This is also, ironically, in both the url and the header of the link you posted. As your link also points out, the important question is what type of ammo was used. If he used hollow or soft point the penetration is lower, if he used ball ammo the 5.56 penetrates way more. All of this is of course moot since your own link ends with (bold in original): The bottom line to remember in all of this though is to still be aware of your target and what is around/beyond it because ALL bullets that will penetrate deep enough to stop an attacker will still penetrate at least one interior wall. And even a bullet, like the .223 that tends to lose steam and deviate after a wall or two can still be deadly to your family/innocents.

Once again: The guy is a poster child for everything you should never do with a firearm. I am frankly amazed at the lengths people will go to defend a guy who violated weapon laws, drove 3 states over with a gun he was carrying illegally and then tried to menace and threaten protesters with it. Once the protesters tried to defend themselves from the guy with the illegal gun, he killed 2 and wounded 1. I can swear to God that had this guy been a gang member carrying an illegal import and not a gun he stole from his mother, you'd be first in line to tell us how he needed a very harsh sentence. Even before he shot 3 people he was breaking half a dozen gun laws.
Geth, you haven't watched any videos of this. You're still talking about him driving over three states when he lived near the state line and drove, at most, 30 minutes. This wasn't even the first time he was over there as we have pictures of him washing grafitti at a high school earlier in the day. Get yourself informed.
 

Terminal Blue

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One of many citations from this source compared 9mm, 10mm, and .40 calibers and then concluded “In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets."
This is desperate.

You're talking about penetrating drywall. Gethsemani is talking about penetrating human bodes.

The actual tests clearly show that the relative lack of penetration of successive layers of drywall/insulation with .223 is due to tumbling. Tumbling is actually an intentional part of the design of .223 rounds. Upon impact, the bullet deforms slightly causing it to spin or "tumble" inside the target, inflicting more tissue damage. Obviously, bullets are not designed to fly through air while tumbling, so the fact that it doesn't retain the same ballistic properties after penetrating multiple walls separated by air gaps shouldn't surprise anyone. A human body, however, is just a single mass.

Another consequence of tumbling, which you can actually see clearly in the examples given, is that the bullet's trajectory deviates after penetrating. In some of the examples, it doesn't even hit the rear layers of drywall because its trajectory has curved. This means that it's actually impossible to know exactly where the bullet will end up after penetrating, which is a very good reason why you shouldn't fire it into a crowd.

The FBI and "professional door kickers" (whatever that means) adopting .223 ammo has basically nothing to do with overpenetration. It's about stopping power. In particular, the FBI's experiences in cases like this one have generally illustrated the fact that handguns don't incapacitate people quickly enough due to low muzzle velocity and a lack of penetration.

A .223 rifle has a muzzle velocity close to a kilometer per second, compared to a 9mm handgun which typically manages about 300m/s. That's why it's a jacketed round, because lead alone would shear at that velocity and potentially damage the barrel of the gun. That velocity translates into more penetration into a human body than a pistol round, which means more tissue damage and more chance of incapacitating someone. That penetration is the desired effect and the main advantage of using a higher velocity round.

But if you won't listen to me on this, lemme just quote the part of your link that actually matters.

The bottom line to remember in all of this though is to still be aware of your target and what is around/beyond it because ALL bullets that will penetrate deep enough to stop an attacker will still penetrate at least one interior wall. And even a bullet, like the .223 that tends to lose steam and deviate after a wall or two can still be deadly to your family/innocents.
 
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Houseman

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Guess what 5.56mm is translated into inches? 5.56x45mm is the standard NATO round used in the M16, M4, M27 and M249. So he's most definitely using a modern military round
5.56 and .223 are actually two different things. There's more to ammunition than just measurements. Here, there's a whole section on Wikipedia with the differences. Educate thyself!

Unless you're just saying "he's using the same SIZE of bullet as the military does!" in which case it's a misleading half-truth designed to fool those who don't know any better. So which is it? Are you ignorant of the facts, or are you being deliberately misleading?

Once again: The guy is a poster child for everything you should never do with a firearm.
You can claim that as much as you like, but I think the videos as well as the actual results soundly disprove this accusation.

Once the protesters tried to defend themselves
Charging after someone who is fleeing is not defense, unless you have reason to believe that he's going to get more ammo and then come back.

You're talking about penetrating drywall. Gethsemani is talking about penetrating human bodes.
You're right. Human bodies stop bullets better than drywall.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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Guess what 5.56mm is translated into inches? 5.56x45mm is the standard NATO round used in the M16, M4, M27 and M249. So he's most definitely using a modern military round, especially since the 5.56mm superseded the 7.62mm as the US main firearm caliber. This is also, ironically, in both the url and the header of the link you posted. As your link also points out, the important question is what type of ammo was used. If he used hollow or soft point the penetration is lower, if he used ball ammo the 5.56 penetrates way more. All of this is of course moot since your own link ends with (bold in original): The bottom line to remember in all of this though is to still be aware of your target and what is around/beyond it because ALL bullets that will penetrate deep enough to stop an attacker will still penetrate at least one interior wall. And even a bullet, like the .223 that tends to lose steam and deviate after a wall or two can still be deadly to your family/innocents.

Once again: The guy is a poster child for everything you should never do with a firearm. I am frankly amazed at the lengths people will go to defend a guy who violated weapon laws, drove 3 states over with a gun he was carrying illegally and then tried to menace and threaten protesters with it. Once the protesters tried to defend themselves from the guy with the illegal gun, he killed 2 and wounded 1. I can swear to God that had this guy been a gang member carrying an illegal import and not a gun he stole from his mother, you'd be first in line to tell us how he needed a very harsh sentence. Even before he shot 3 people he was breaking half a dozen gun laws.
Just as a minor detail that don't really invalidate your point, .223 and 5.56 NATO are actually two different rounds, and while they're nearly the same from most practical perspectives they aren't interchangeable.
 

Dreiko

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So, what we can conclude from your reasoning is that AR-toting militias should be free to invade American towns at their own whim and engage in public order activities on their own initiative. As disagreeing with them or interfering in their self-appointed policing should be viewed as reckless self-endangerment, people should obey the militia.

Congratulations. You have just constructed an argument for armed thugs to legally intimidate and (if resisted) kill the public.
If you have an issue with the militia, what you wanna do is call the police, not go out and fight them. This is obvious.


The moment you engage them, you are their moral equal and can't complain about their vigilantism as you're engaging in it as well.
 
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Xprimentyl

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I don't need to, you just need to recognize the flaw inherent in the argument, which you did by saying: "Why stop at that line in the logic? If everyone's parents hadn't had sex and conceived these poeple, NONE of this would have happened, right?"
There's no inherent flaw in reasonable cause and effect. The law has to look at the chain of events and determine at which point the criminal infractions were preventable, and the fact remains they were preventable from the moment Rittenhouse, a unauthorized, teenaged civilian, decided to grab a rifle, leave his house and drive 20 miles to violently involve himself. Where's the "inherent flaw" in that argument? The fact that the riots and protest were going on already does not suggest those two people would have inexorably been shot and killed with a third wounded.
 
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Mister Mumbler

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Geth, you haven't watched any videos of this. You're still talking about him driving over three states when he lived near the state line and drove, at most, 30 minutes. This wasn't even the first time he was over there as we have pictures of him washing grafitti at a high school earlier in the day. Get yourself informed.
Actually, it doesn't matter if you live a hundred miles from a border or only 2 minutes, the second you cross that border and commit a crime it goes from simply breaking the law in that state to breaking federal laws because I'm rather certain that just going to another state and committing a crime there is in itself a federal charge.

EDIT: Spelling cause this auto correct sucks shit.
 

SilentPony

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If you have an issue with the militia, what you wanna do is call the police, not go out and fight them. This is obvious.


The moment you engage them, you are their moral equal and can't complain about their vigilantism as you're engaging in it as well.
But to be fair what happens if they come fro you? Armed militia, or terrorists as they're known internationally, order you to stop your car. Hold you at gun point, search you, your car, for "the safety of the community". What if they ask you to come with them? What if they ask your family members to come with them? What if they ask you to show them your house?

Remember they're """""militia""""" which means no legal authority. Detaining you is kidnapping. Searching your person or car is trespassing. Asking what you're doing when carrying a gun can be intimidation or threatening physical harm. These aren't RobinHood and his Merry Men trying to protect the village from the nasty King's men, this is the Suburban Taliban trying to take over small towns, with the implied consent of the police.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Actually, it doesn't matter if you live a hundred miles from a border or only 2 minutes, the second you cross that border and commit a crime it goes from simply breaking the law in that state to breaking federal laws because I'm rather certain that just going to another state and committing a crime there is in itself a federal charge.

EDIT: Spelling cause this auto correct sucks shit.
I'm fairly certain this would only be relevant if he was intending to traffick arms. From my own memory and a shallow Google search all commiting a crime in another state has a bearing on is where the person is tried.
 

Iron

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I saw a tweet from his lawyer that said he was with a friend from Wisconsin who also owned the guns. What I don't understand is HOW he got to be all by himself and away from his group. You may forgot but this was still a kid.
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I hate following through tweets so much.
 

Revnak

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I saw a tweet from his lawyer that said he was with a friend from Wisconsin who also owned the guns. What I don't understand is HOW he got to be all by himself and away from his group. You may forgot but this was still a kid.
View attachment 658
I hate following through tweets so much.
I fucking hate the “my menchies are defamation” types. End libel law, it’s a racket for the rich anyway.
 

Terminal Blue

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You're right. Human bodies stop bullets better than drywall.
Human bodies do not consist of 3/4 inch panels separated by several meters of air.

Air, incidentally, will stop bullets very reliably, but note how the air in this case utterly failed to protect anyone. Weird isn't it.
 

Iron

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I fucking hate the “my menchies are defamation” types. End libel law, it’s a racket for the rich anyway.
I also have something for this:
Human bodies do not consist of 3/4 inch panels separated by several meters of air.

Air, incidentally, will stop bullets very reliably, but note how the air in this case utterly failed to protect anyone. Weird isn't it.
The ground usually stops bullets, since it arches down due to gravity.
 

Houseman

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Human bodies do not consist of 3/4 inch panels separated by several meters of air.
You're right, they're full of dense, squishy, tough, and in the case of bone, hard things. They're also more than 3/4' thick.
Drywall, on the other hand, is merely hard, thin, and brittle.
 

Buyetyen

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It's always unfortunate when someone makes a very good point, but uses one wrong word or phrase and it allows someone to latch onto it with an "AHA!!! and completely ignore the rest of their point.
It's not the use of a wrong word or phrase. It's the fact that the person latching onto it is dishonest enough to do so.

Geth, you haven't watched any videos of this. You're still talking about him driving over three states when he lived near the state line and drove, at most, 30 minutes. This wasn't even the first time he was over there as we have pictures of him washing grafitti at a high school earlier in the day. Get yourself informed.
How does this make it legal to transport a firearm for which he was unlicensed? And why does this time of the travel duration change the fact that his actions violated multiple laws?

If you have an issue with the militia, what you wanna do is call the police, not go out and fight them. This is obvious.
The police were doing nothing to stop the militia from intefering. You're solution is to allow this to happen.

I'm fairly certain this would only be relevant if he was intending to traffick arms. From my own memory and a shallow Google search all commiting a crime in another state has a bearing on is where the person is tried.
Commit felonies across state lines and then cross them to flee, that falls under federal jurisdiction.
 
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