Armed civilian, 17, shoots 2 dead during Kenosha happening

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Buyetyen

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Did you not read what Houseman and crimson have been talking about?! What does Stand Your Ground have to do with this?!
Stand Your Ground laws are meant to make it easier to get away with using deadly force. In other states, if you shoot someone because they rushed you because you were open carrying, it's harder to find a sympathetic judge and the prosecution will absolutely go after that.

Also, I can't understand anything Houseman says with that jackboot in his mouth.
 

Houseman

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He's not a cop or a security guard, and a farmer would be just as culpable as him if said farmer went to a car dealership to "defend" it. So no, I will not change my language because the prosecution isn't, they're going to point out he was there to be violent.
You said that, if someone is armed with a rifle, they can't possibly be defending a business. I proved you wrong. A judge would find you in contempt of court for continuing to use loaded language in order to try to mislead the jury.

Because that's provocation and intent.
Those same pictures from before also prove you wrong.

Nobody was provoked, nor can you argue that they attempted to provoke but failed, and the fact that nobody was shot before or after the above pictures were taken proves a lack of intent as well.

The first person wasn't going for his gun.
How are you able to determine the attacker's intent from a video?
 

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Found a new video. The second one is the new one


It seems that what triggered the confrontation at the gas station was someone putting out a dumpster fire the rioters were trying to push into it. I'll reply to people later. I need to take a break from this and destress, maybe go hang out with chickens for a while.
So someone had already assaulted the guy he shot first when they pushed him as seen in your video? The armed guy in the yellow shirt and the guy with the black backpack shoved the guy he shot first back. The militia were actively putting themselves in the middle of the protesters and instigating it from the looks of that. The people were already by the gas station while that fire bin was going on, look in the background. The militia were the ones bringing lethal weapons into a a heated protest about an unarmed man being shot in the back. THAT is a provocation in itself. The cops should have kept them away from the protest like they usually separate protesters and counter protesters in most cities. The police should have removed the militia and only allowed them to stay in a separate area. THIS is called doing your job:



The militia had no business being in the same area as the protesters to begin with as their only purpose for being there was to start shit with the protesters. The protesters were there to protest an unarmed man being shot in the back. HUGE difference. The militia were only there to interfere and instigate with the active ongoing protest to begin with.
 
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Iron

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Incorrect


(2) 
(a) Any person under 18 years of age who possesses or goes armed with a dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
(b) Except as provided in par. (c), any person who intentionally sells, loans or gives a dangerous weapon to a person under 18 years of age is guilty of a Class I felony.
(c) Whoever violates par. (b) is guilty of a Class H felony if the person under 18 years of age under par. (b) discharges the firearm and the discharge causes death to himself, herself or another.

All the exceptions require very specific situations and an adult nearby.
Dude come on. The exceptions are training with the firearm under supervision. There's also hunting in the state, you can hunt from age 12-18 under supervision.
This isn't even relevant to this case, I said it to show you can walk around with a weapon in Wisconsin, it's not illegal, unless you're doing those things. The law about rifles and shotguns is kinda lax as well.
Stop waving your google results around, I can also google stuff. Or did you just read an article by some journalist? It's the first thing that comes up when I google Wisconsin gun laws. If search results were stocks I'd have invested in that word combination and got rich.
The militia had no business being in the same area as the protesters to begin with as their only purpose for being there was to start shit with the protesters. The protesters were there to protest an unarmed man being shot in the back. HUGE difference. The militia were only there to interfere and instigate with the active ongoing protest to begin with.
They were also there to burn cars.
 

crimson5pheonix

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You said that, if someone is armed with a rifle, they can't possibly be defending a business. I proved you wrong. A judge would find you in contempt of court for continuing to use loaded language in order to try to mislead the jury.
You didn't though. It's also not what I said, I said somebody who was armed to go into a violent protest isn't there to defend anything.

Those same pictures from before also prove you wrong.

Nobody was provoked, nor can you argue that they attempted to provoke but failed, and the fact that nobody was shot before or after the above pictures were taken proves a lack of intent as well.
They don't though.

How are you able to determine the attacker's intent from a video?
They were unarmed and not in range to go for Kyle's gun.
 

lil devils x

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Dude come on. The exceptions are training with the firearm under supervision. There's also hunting in the state, you can hunt from age 12-18 under supervision.
.
This isn't even relevant to this case, I said it to show you can walk around with a weapon in Wisconsin, it's not illegal, unless you're doing those things. The law about rifles and shotguns is kinda lax as well.
Stop waving your google results around, I can also google stuff. Or did you just read an article by some journalist? It's the first thing that comes up when I google Wisconsin gun laws. If search results were stocks I'd have invested in that word combination and got rich.
SUPERVISION= legal parent or guardian. Not a friend. He is unsupervised under the law. The friend giving him the gun ILLEGALLY GAVE HIM THE GUN and is not authorized to supervise him under the law. You can't legally give a kid who is not your own a gun. You cannot even give your own brother a gun if he is underage.

AND the most basic is he wasn't hunting and we have abundant evidence to prove that. If he was in fact hunting humans, that just made his case much worse.
Oh and he was in city limits and not on hunting grounds.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Dude come on. The exceptions are training with the firearm under supervision. There's also hunting in the state, you can hunt from age 12-18 under supervision.
This isn't even relevant to this case, I said it to show you can walk around with a weapon in Wisconsin, it's not illegal, unless you're doing those things. The law about rifles and shotguns is kinda lax as well.
Stop waving your google results around, I can also google stuff. Or did you just read an article by some journalist? It's the first thing that comes up when I google Wisconsin gun laws. If search results were stocks I'd have invested in that word combination and got rich.

They were also there to burn cars.
Yes, he wasn't being supervised, at target practice, or hunting. And there are, in fact, laws against minors carrying weapons in public. They're not so lax that he wasn't committing a crime by carrying a rifle around.
 

Iron

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SUPERVISION= legal parent or guardian. Not a friend. He is unsupervised under the law. The friend giving him the gun ILLEGALLY GAVE HIM THE GUN and is not authorized to supervise him under the law. You can't legally give a kid who is not your own a gun. You cannot even give your own brother a gun if he is underage.
separate what I said and what you think I said. I wasn't talking about the shooter.
 

lil devils x

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separate what I said and what you think I said. I wasn't talking about the shooter.
What you have said is that he was given a gun by his friend and that the friend was supervising him.

I stated both are illegal because his friend is not authorized to supervise him or give him a gun.
 

Houseman

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Pictured: Roof Koreans arming themselves and intentionally setting up in a dangerous situation in order to provoke an attack from peaceful protesters so that they can claim self-defense.

These men would later go on to found the alt-right and vote for Donald Trump /s


I said somebody who was armed to go into a violent protest isn't there to defend anything.
It's your opinion vs factual precedent, such as pictured above.

They were unarmed and not in range to go for Kyle's gun.
Being unarmed has no bearing on whether or not their intent was to take Rittenhouse's gun. In fact it's much easier to do when you have two free hands.
And they weren't in range to go for Kyle's gun because Kyle was RUNNING AWAY FROM THEM

What, are you going to claim that the people charging straight at Rittenhouse didn't intend anything by it? That they were just running up to him because he dropped a quarter, or because they wanted to shake his hand?
 
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Buyetyen

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Dude come on. The exceptions are training with the firearm under supervision. There's also hunting in the state, you can hunt from age 12-18 under supervision.
I was not aware that vigilantism counted as supervised training or hunting. Though I'm sure the little ************'s blood-sucking lawyers will try to make that argument anyway. Gun fanatic lawyers are already trying to lay the groundwork for that. I mean, Wisconsin law does say that you can't use deadly force to defend property, but that won't stop these over-privileged ass blisters from trying to work that angle anyway.
 

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Dude come on. The exceptions are training with the firearm under supervision. There's also hunting in the state, you can hunt from age 12-18 under supervision.
This isn't even relevant to this case, I said it to show you can walk around with a weapon in Wisconsin, it's not illegal, unless you're doing those things. The law about rifles and shotguns is kinda lax as well.
Stop waving your google results around, I can also google stuff. Or did you just read an article by some journalist? It's the first thing that comes up when I google Wisconsin gun laws. If search results were stocks I'd have invested in that word combination and got rich.

They were also there to burn cars.
Show me the number of people who were present vs the number of people who actually burned cars. Oh yea, the few people who burnt cars somehow invalidate the reason why the majority of the people where there.

That is like saying that the people who kidnap people from concerts invalidate the reason why most people go to a concert. Most people go to a concert to listen to music. Most people went to this protest because they were angry about an unarmed man being shot in the back. This protest would not be happening at all if the man had not been shot in the back, just like people would not be at the concert if there was no music playing.

The militia showed up for a more sinister reason. They showed up to intimidate the protesters, they were the ones who should have been separated from the protesters as they do at other protests to keep shit like this from happening in the first place. That way if they are going to shoot someone they can only shoot the buddies they came with.
 

lil devils x

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I was not aware that vigilantism counted as supervised training or hunting. Though I'm sure the little ************'s blood-sucking lawyers will try to make that argument anyway. Gun fanatic lawyers are already trying to lay the groundwork for that. I mean, Wisconsin law does say that you can't use deadly force to defend property, but that won't stop these over-privileged ass blisters from trying to work that angle anyway.
Even if vigilantism is somehow supervision( it isn't) it would still have to be supervised by their parent or legal guardian doing the vigilantism. Considering this kids buddies were not his parents or legal guardians " supervision, and training" is irrelevant either way and still illegal. ( and that is ignoring the fact that this was public and populated area where it is not legal to train regardless)
 

crimson5pheonix

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Pictured: Roof Koreans arming themselves and intentionally setting up in a dangerous situation in order to provoke an attack from peaceful protesters so that they can claim self-defense.

These men would later go on to found the alt-right and vote for Donald Trump /s




It's your opinion vs factual precedent, such as pictured above.
Those are also locals, not from out of town. It's a false equivalence.

Being unarmed has no bearing on whether or not their intent was to take Rittenhouse's gun. In fact it's much easier to do when you have two free hands.
And they weren't in range to go for Kyle's gun because Kyle was RUNNING AWAY FROM THEM

What, are you going to claim that the people charging straight at Rittnehouse weren't threats? That they were just running up to him because he dropped a quarter, or because they wanted to shake his hand?
They weren't even going for his gun though, they had a plastic bag.
 

Houseman

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Those are also locals, not from out of town. It's a false equivalence.
He holds a job in Kenosha. Just because he lives 30 minutes away does not mean that he is "from out of town", or in other words, that he has no stake in Kenosha. He obviously has ties to the community, as evidenced by his job, his friends, and that he was requested to render aid. It's just as much his community to protect as the people who live within the city limits, but who commute to work somewhere else.

Besides, where one lives is irrelevant. We are all Americans. Someone living in California should stand up against an injustice in Florida, and vice versa. You are proposing a callous and indifferent world when you suggest that people should only look out for their own and ignore the problems of everyone else.

They weren't even going for his gun though, they had a plastic bag.
"Upon the sound of a gunshot behind him, Kyle turned and was immediately faced with an attacker lunging towards him and reaching for his rifle," the attorneys said. -https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/kyle-rittenhouse-defended-himself-did-nothing-wrong-attorney-says/2330687/

The grainy footage so far does not disprove this.
 
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Mister Mumbler

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So @Specter Von Baren, I saw you bring up that distance doesn't matter point again, as much as I still feel it's wrong, my own quick googling hasn't produced anything outside of trafficking (and how convenient that the first revelation was the gun being from in state), kidnapping and money stuff, and something about fleeing after committing a felony (it's hard to tell, legalese is hard to decipher, but I feel would count in this case). However, considering this is an interent debate, one on the Escapist no less, I will leave this line of reasoning with a hearty "nuh-uh".

Especially since none of this matters I've come to realize. All of this "why he was there", "what led up to him shooting", etc, is meaningless because he committed the double homicide (again, up to courts for the whole "justified self-defense", not Internet debate) with a weapon he should not have had. Plain and simple.
 

crimson5pheonix

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He holds a job in Kenosha. Just because he lives 30 minutes away does not mean that he is "from out of town", or in other words, that he has no stake in Kenosha. He obviously has ties to the community, as evidenced by his job, his friends, and that he was requested to render aid. It's just as much his community to protect as the people who live within the the city limits.

Besides, where one lives is irrelevant. We are all Americans. Someone living in California should stand up against an injustice in Florida, and vice versa. You are proposing a callous and indifferent world when you suggest that people should only look out for their own and ignore the problems of everyone else.
No, I'm saying you can't go into a dangerous situation and kill people. If he's going out of his way to "defend" others, he's doing the opposite of retreating and displaying his willingness to injure and kill.

As point of fact he did injure and kill, and not even in defense of the thing he was supposed to be "defending". He was away from his "post", killing protesters he didn't have to fight. That's why he's not going to get far on his self-defense plea.


"Upon the sound of a gunshot behind him, Kyle turned and was immediately faced with an attacker lunging towards him and reaching for his rifle," the attorneys said. -https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/kyle-rittenhouse-defended-himself-did-nothing-wrong-attorney-says/2330687/

The grainy footage so far does not disprove this.
It does when the guy had a plastic bag.
 

Mister Mumbler

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Also, while I know I just said these details were rather meaningless, I find it odd that a business owner, who is so concerned something may happen to his business that he needs people armed with guns defending it, that he would call up on a 17 year old "kid" (considering he's only 1 year away from joining the military, where he would have been given a gun very similar to the one used here and actually paid to shoot people with it, I find this constant characterizing of him as a kid dubious, especially since, funnily enough was brought up a page ago, that Zimmerman case).
 

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If he's going out of his way to "defend" others, he's doing the opposite of retreating and displaying his willingness to injure and kill.
You're claiming that a person who is RUNNING AWAY is doing the OPPOSITE OF RETREATING.
The jury is desperately trying to stifle their laughter. The defense and Rittenhouse high-five.

considering he's only 1 year away from joining the military
You can actually join the military at 17.
 

lil devils x

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Also, while I know I just said these details were rather meaningless, I find it odd that a business owner, who is so concerned something may happen to his business that he needs people armed with guns defending it, that he would call up on a 17 year old "kid" (considering he's only 1 year away from joining the military, where he would have been given a gun very similar to the one used here and actually paid to shoot people with it, I find this constant characterizing of him as a kid dubious, especially since, funnily enough was brought up a page ago, that Zimmerman case).
He is still a kid. In Pediatric Medicine we still treat "kids" that are 17. The human brain is not even fully formed until the age of 26, and at 17, their brain still shows reduced activity in the prefrontal cortex region of the brain that controls judgement. Essentially, the brain slows or shuts down the judgement centers of your brain during puberty while it focuses on forming new connections in social centers of your brain and higher math. This is also why I do not think we should be giving 18 yr old guns as well and they should not be considered a mature adult until their judgement centers of their brain are fully formed and functioning. Essentially a teenager is wired to do stupid things because the part of their brain that controls saying " Hey, you don't want to do that because it is stupid" is essentially shut down.

.

Personally I think we need to raise the age limit for a lot of things because people with their judgement centers of their brains shut down shouldn't be expected to be able to think ahead. It is like expecting a car to stop after you removed the brakes.
 
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