Arnold "Doesn't Give A ****" If You Agree On Climate Change

[Fanghawk]

Isn't Arnold Republican? I don't see the party approving of this.

He's a Californian Republican. Totally different thing.

I don't know, Nixon and Reagan where both California Republicans as well.

Fun fact: Nixon created the Environmental Protection Agency. In fact, <a href=http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Richard_Nixon_Environment.htm>he did so as an executive order (he didn't have the support at the time) and made it an independent regulatory agency.

It could've been one of his most important legacies were it not for... Well, you know.

 

[Seanchaidh]

This might not be 100% related, but aren't the people lobbying against renewable energy usually on the conservative side of the political spectrum? Which is ironic, considering they aren't [em]conserving[/em] the planet.

[sub](+1 clever point for me, check)[/sub]

That's a matter of who gets (or wants) campaign donations from oil companies more than anything else. A substantial number of rich people are oil men, so you'll see a lot of both Republicans and Democrats reflexively defend their interests. Not all of them, though. And fewer Democrats than Republicans, given the various party positions on the matter.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Man these discussions always amuse me, then they depress me as I realize howmuch stupid will continue to float around and muddy the waters so no progress is made.
So let's just simplfy things for those who have difficulty comprehending: "It can't be done" are the first words spoken about every new technology that ever came to this planet, people also kept saying them as they rode horses past those mad oil powered carriages.

 

[Kenjitsuka]

"I'm guessing you chose the Door Number Two, with the electric car, right? Door number one is a fatal choice - who would ever want to breathe those fumes? This is the choice the world is making right now."

I'm a cybernetic hypermetal alloy being. I'll just spend the time in *either* room making funny animal shapes with my body. Maybe just become a puddle for awhile when I get bored of that... In fact, why don't I split myself up and be in BOTH rooms at the same time! Is it okay if I leave after *half* an hour? Got more stuff to do, like build some more advanced solar panels

 

[Albino Boo]

You understand why oil is falling, right? It's because OPEC is still pumping oil like it was when America was heavy in Iraq and all. They're doing this to try and push America and Russia out of the shale game since that needs expensive oil to be profitable. They're running themselves ragged [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-22/as-opec-tries-to-squeeze-rivals-one-of-its-own-feels-the-pinch] trying to keep it up. Oh, and your prediction on oil price is not their prediction. [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35166467] These low oil prices are entirely artificial as OPEC runs through their supply faster than they need to.

Apart from the small but important fact that according to the pak oil theory we should have already run out of oil and be suffering and economic depression due to oil shock. The peak oil theory was the previous way the renewables lobby were justifying the massive subsidies to their industry. Now thats has proved to be nonsense, the current one is critical mass. In ten years time it will be another one.

Furthermore you fail to understand that the $100 a barrel oil price was artificial. OPEC operated as cartel to keep prices high, a practice that is illegal for any business to engage in. In addition China is in engaging in dumping solar panels on the world at less than cost price. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-09/u-s-imposes-dumping-duties-on-imports-of-chinese-solar-goods .

Fossil fuels were never profitable before.

Literally the only reason they are now is because the governments of the world literally shoveled money at companies to invest in research, exploration and extraction of fossil fuels early on. The grants and tax benefits of today are leftovers from that program - which is why people argue that governments should stop helping these companies now and switch to green energy, since oil and fossil fuel extraction is literally the most profitable business on the planet and doesn't need the help anymore.

Utter nonsense. I strongly suggest that you start living in the real world. Opec has operated as a cartel to artificially inflate the oil price for the last 40 years. The cartel has broken due the joint aggressive actions of Iran and Russia in the middle east. Meaning the oil price is were is would be if there was a free market.

Man these discussions always amuse me, then they depress me as I realize howmuch stupid will continue to float around and muddy the waters so no progress is made.
So let's just simplfy things for those who have difficulty comprehending: "It can't be done" are the first words spoken about every new technology that ever came to this planet, people also kept saying them as they rode horses past those mad oil powered carriages.

Until you realise that the renewable is a business lobby just like any other and is purely out to maximise their profits and not some morally pure saints there will be no progress. Why invest in massive risky R&D programmes when you get rich off taxpayers money at no risk with existing technology.

 

[blackrave]

Renewable energy isn't something we should all strive for just because climate change is a real threat. If we switch to renewable energy, then we'll have no use for Saudi Arabia as an "ally". And seeing how Saudi Arabia is behind the spread of Wahhabi ideology and they're the main financier of terrorism, we'll finally be able to deal with the source of the whole problem.

And that is why such outcome is highly unlikely.
Companies interested in profit from oil have strong lobby in government.
And evil trrrists are good boogeyman to scare voters with.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

That's a pretty compelling argument that really hasn't got much of a counter. Unless the advocates of fossil fuels want to go sniffing on all the exhaust pipes.

Ah yes, the capitalist argument for renewables. For some reason people always ignore it.

It's a really strong argument, and lots of people really don't even get it.

The state (for lack of a better term, state like for example Texas, although it has a little bit less independece) in germany I'm in has a green government ... and is the strongest industrial state in germany.

I respect the switch that Germany made. Except for the part where tons of brown coal was being mined / burned in response to the knee-jerk closing of nuclear facilities, plus the covering of tons of your open space with solar farms.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

Don't kid yourself, we've just swung to the opposite side of the supply curve. These prices aren't good for the companies involved. And peak oil is a mathematical certainty. We know how oil is formed and the rate of consumption. Determining when exactly we'll hit peak oil is difficult due in no small part to OPEC and it's price fixing, but that doesn't change that there is a point of peak oil. Pretending we'll have oil forever does no one any good.

 

[Albino Boo]

snip

Don't kid yourself, we've just swung to the opposite side of the supply curve. These prices aren't good for the companies involved. And peak oil is a mathematical certainty. We know how oil is formed and the rate of consumption. Determining when exactly we'll hit peak oil is difficult due in no small part to OPEC and it's price fixing, but that doesn't change that there is a point of peak oil. Pretending we'll have oil forever does no one any good.

Peak oil is like the inevitable victory of Marxism Leninism, a so called science but in fact an article of political dogma. The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stone. We didn't stop using coal fired steam trains because of massive government subsidies but because diesel engines are cheaper to run. The marketplace will find replacements for oil that will be cheaper and more efficient than handing out big fat tax breaks to existing technology that can compete in the real world. Its wasn't big government that built the 19th rail revolution, it wasn't big government that developed the plane, the car, the steam turbine, the container ship and it won't be big government that finds the oil replacement. Its very simple, the market place relies on multiple people making decisions on what they think will work and persuading other people to invest their money. Big government reiles on one person spending other people's money on what they think will make them popular. Success and failure is measured in different terms.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

snip

Don't kid yourself, we've just swung to the opposite side of the supply curve. These prices aren't good for the companies involved. And peak oil is a mathematical certainty. We know how oil is formed and the rate of consumption. Determining when exactly we'll hit peak oil is difficult due in no small part to OPEC and it's price fixing, but that doesn't change that there is a point of peak oil. Pretending we'll have oil forever does no one any good.

Peak oil is like the inevitable victory of Marxism Leninism, a so called science but in fact an article of political dogma. The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stone. We didn't stop using coal fired steam trains because of massive government subsidies but because diesel engines are cheaper to run. The marketplace will find replacements for oil that will be cheaper and more efficient than handing out big fat tax breaks to existing technology that can compete in the real world. Its wasn't big government that built the 19th rail revolution, it wasn't big government that developed the plane, the car, the steam turbine, the container ship and it won't be big government that finds the oil replacement. Its very simple, the market place relies on multiple people making decisions on what they think will work and persuading other people to invest their money. Big government reiles on one person spending other people's money on what they think will make them popular. Success and failure is measured in different terms.

You notice I'm not talking about government, I'm talking about reality. Arnold has the right idea, it's a strong investment. And once again, peak oil IS a fact. It's one of the few things that is an actual mathematics fact. If you empty a bucket faster than it fills, the bucket will empty out.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

It always struck me as weird as people will damn the one concrete thing we have (e.g the planet) for man made and controlled ideals (e.g the economy).

Let me come to a Benz dealership one day saying I have a Rai Stone and I'll say it's theirs if they give me a car. They'll laugh me right out of the shop. Why? It's currency. People took it as value once, so if everyone else adopts it, it's value now.

That's how stable and how finite this concept is. Some people say it's worth something, some people don't. And we're ready to damn everything because of value.

I rather be on a planet that I'm not scared to bring children into with weaker cars and transport than be on a planet that I could go 250 miles per hour... yet never, EVER legally (but I have the option!), yet have to wonder if every heat wave is just a capricious thing or a sign of things to come.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

Renewable energy isn't something we should all strive for just because climate change is a real threat. If we switch to renewable energy, then we'll have no use for Saudi Arabia as an "ally". And seeing how Saudi Arabia is behind the spread of Wahhabi ideology and they're the main financier of terrorism, we'll finally be able to deal with the source of the whole problem.

And that is why such outcome is highly unlikely.
Companies interested in profit from oil have strong lobby in government.
And evil trrrists are good boogeyman to scare voters with.

That's the situation in America (and the UK because UK does what its told). But they're not the only countries in the world. If the rest of the world decides to invest heavily in renewable energy (and they are), that changes everything even for the US. Energy independence is the future that every country wants for itself. If you add to that the fact that car manufacturers are investing more in electric cars then there's no amount of lobbying that could prevent this change. No amount of political shenanigans that will save OPEC from ceasing to exist in less than 50 years.

 

[Ambitiousmould]

This is a point I've tried to make to people for ages. Environment aside, we know that fossil fuels will run out, so we have to prepare for that orse there'll be no power for anyone.

It's also a point that Clarkson, Hammond and May have being trying to put across, especially talking about hydrogen fuel cells, but people tend to not take them seriously, so when they make a good point it gets ignored.

 

[Strazdas]

Apart from the small but important fact that according to the pak oil theory we should have already run out of oil and be suffering and economic depression due to oil shock. The peak oil theory was the previous way the renewables lobby were justifying the massive subsidies to their industry. Now thats has proved to be nonsense, the current one is critical mass. In ten years time it will be another one.

the original peak oil theory made two false assumptions:

1. no new sources would be discovered - turned out to be false as we did discover new sources

2. currently inaccessible oil fields would remain unaccessible (for example at the bed of the ocean). this was overcome with invention of new technology.

Those two factors has allowed oil extraction to drag on for a few extra decades as it increased the total supply that needs to be burned through. It is however a fact that peak extraction amounts have already passed and there is less oil being extracted nowadays. there is less demand too as some uses were replaced (for example recycled plastic means there is less need for plastic production), so the prices can be kept artificially low. it does not however mean that we will not run out eventually unless we replace it with other methods of generating power and materials.

 

[UsefulPlayer 1]

Can you imagine the climate fight where the coal industry is life though?

They will literally tell you the sun rises in the west and sets in the east to keep their coal. I can't really blame them though, like their whole lives depend on Dad inhaling toxic fumes.

Like what is the answer for those families? Or any family invested in environmentally unfriendly industries.

 

[Fox12]

Isn't Arnold Republican? I don't see the party approving of this.

Arnold doesn't give a **** if the party approves of this.

In all seriousness, I was always under the impression that he was a pretty left leaning republican. The Republican Party will have to jump on board with this eventually, for practical purposes. I suppose he's just an early adopter. He was governor of California, after all, and they're probably the state most affected by global warming. Even the republican there tend to care about the issue. It's different when you're the one affected.

 

[Lightknight]

I mean, there are a ton of arguments to be made in favor of clean energy. For big businesses there are huge financial incentives. For local regions you have major pollution related benefits that don't necessarily have anything to do with climate change (air pollution, local water sources, stuff like that). For home owners you've got some autonomy with a good solar setup (who here has never had a power outage last for more than a couple hours?) and an actual return on investment over time. There's even the socio-political dependencies on nefarious countries that this would lessen.

Clean renewable energy is finally affordable and efficient enough to warrant the switch. It's a good choice without any consideration of climate change. So I'm with the Terminator on this.

Arnold is a moderate, as with most Californian Republicans. Has everyone forgotten that you don't have to be on the end of the scale to be a member of either party? It's so depressing to see our representation being far left or far right when the majority of us are in the middle.

My hope is that we're beginning to see a wave of people being tired of politicians and being ready for straight shooters who stick to their beliefs.

 

[Vicarious Reality]

The problem with electric cars and many other devices is the very much 'fossil' lithium