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Baresark

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Videogames are a massive and expensive pastime. That is the very reason that no one should care so much about what critics of movies think about videogames. I attended school for Fine Arts, and while most game couldn't possibly be considered art in the sense that there is some deep emotional impact or even some sort of meaningful message about the times we live; there certainly are games that fall into that description. I don't care if an art critic likes videogames. Just like most artists could not care less if a gamer finds deep meaning in his work. Hell, most artists don't care if anyone finds meaning in their work at all, as they don't do it for other people, they do it for themselves. Games should be the same. They should be made to fill the niche that people use them for. Some will turn out to be art, most will not. I feel that gamers go out of their way for the thing they enjoy doing to be legitimized. I say stop doing that because it's already legitimate in a lot of ways. But it will never be legitimate to the Ebert's of the world because they don't actively participate in their use or enjoyment.
 

Pyrian

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Product Placement said:
Still, if you think that's a massive improvement, you should see some of the webcomics that I've seen.
"Questionable Content" springs to mind:

From: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4
to: http://www.questionablecontent.net/
 

Darth_Payn

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Daystar Clarion said:
Product Placement said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Holy shit, Cory's art has come a long way since those days :D

He's gotten really good, the improvement is astounding.
Well, that was one of his first strips. It's fairly common to see a wast difference between early strips and the newest one in a comic that's been consistently maintained for years.

Still, if you think that's a massive improvement, you should see some of the webcomics that I've seen.

It's still good, though. He's clearly become better at it.
I'm aware that it's one of the earlier comics, I've been reading them since day 1 after all :D
This sort of thing happens to all webcomics I read. I've seen it with PvP Online and Penny Arcade. Go back to their archives and you will start asking yourself if you're reading the same strip at all.
 

Ferisar

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I don't think it's a question of whether or not it's art at this point, but rather if its artistic merit and narrative is worthwhile. Entertainment and actual insight are two different things.

What I'm trying to get at, while video games are art, not that many are worth remembering, and that bugs me.

WHAT AHM SAYING IS

Like a pretty poster, it's not something that I feel I'm going to refer back to three or four decades down the line. I doubt it's ever going to be examined in a school course or have lasting societal impact. There just hasn't been anything of that magnitude (at least seemingly).

And that's FINE. I like games. But it's, well, games. It's not an "interactive experience" it's "video game".

you know, it's in the title.

My guess is the best of this medium is still ahead.
 

Elyxard

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I remember reading about people sending copies of Shadow of the Colossus to Roger Ebert and thinking to myself, "How the hell is someone who hasn't played videogames since the arcade days going to pick up one of the most difficult to control videogames of our time?". I certainly agree that it's a work of art, but that's just silly, desperate, and ineffective way to convince Mr. Ebert of our medium's strengths.
 

Dragonbums

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Zachary Amaranth said:
You guys best not be mocking obtuse indie title #44384.

Thunderous Cacophony said:
So, who is ready for another rousing forum discussion of games and art? I know I'm not, so I'm gonna go get a waffle. Let me know how it plays out.
A bunch of people shout at each other and nothing is resolved.

Dragonbums said:
Luckily, we already have it. But as to why we need it, in the United States at least, it gives us protection against censorship due to being protected speech. That is a very, very important distinction. I actually do not at all agree with them that "art" is a label that is arbitrary, not when there are immense legal ramifications at stake.
A legal or constitutional label is far from the designation of Roger Ebert or anyone else of his ilk.

And if they were serious, they'd go after it on commerce grounds.
I think you meant to quote Gorrath my friend. My comment actual comment unfortunately is not as thought out as his.
 

Elate

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All those games mentioned, are shit. No way about it, they're boring and dull.

You want a good compelling game, with a strong, well told narrative, and engaging GAMEplay, and a good matching aesthetic? Bastion. I say it every time, and it's 3000x more fun than Dear Esther will ever be, games like that, to me are what some would consider "modern art". You know the kind, a black square painted on a white canvas which people stare at thoughtfully rubbing their chins as they come up with contrived reasoning behind it, and the social message it is trying to convey from the artist, when really, it's a black square on a white canvas. I feel that is what Dear Esther is trying to be, in short, pseudo-high brow bullshit.
 

Dragonbums

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McMarbles said:
Dragonbums said:
I don't know why we keep trying to get the approval of people who don't care about games in the first place.

It's like trying to convince someone who has no interest in football that it's not just a pasttime to yell at the screen for a couple of hours.
The same reason that these days, the highest praise we can give to a game is that it's "cinematic".

This is a medium that is, on some level, deeply ashamed of its roots.
Until we stop demanding that a game has to put full throttle on the realism aspect of their visuals it will continue as such.
You know, next gen graphics and all that.
 

Dragonbums

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erttheking said:
Dragonbums said:
I don't know why we keep trying to get the approval of people who don't care about games in the first place.

It's like trying to convince someone who has no interest in football that it's not just a pasttime to yell at the screen for a couple of hours.
A. We're tired of being blamed every time a shooting happens. Christ I'm surprised that video games didn't get blamed for the Boston bombing.

B. It's less we want people to appreciate video games as art, and more we want them to get off of our ass and stop censoring them, or preaching that they should be banned.

Then again I suppose at the end of the day it's a little pointless. I mean the US Supreme Court ruled that video games are legally art.
A. The torch of blame will be passed on to something else eventually. We are just taking the brunt of it now because we are new to the medium field compared to others and the US loves to put the blame on anyone but themselves for stuff like this.

B. I am too. I can sympathize with that. Again this relates back to my A point. Once they realize people aren't that fucking stupid or rather, it's takes far too much effort to convince people otherwise they will find something else to blame.

C. Also relates back to point B. Again this is yet another case of the government not putting the blame where it properly belongs. Every single game console has parental controls implemented in the system to prevent kids from playing games they don't want them to. Every single game has a rating system ranging fro eC(Early child)- Ao(Adults Only) not to mention that Gamestop and other game centric store employees will REPEATEDLY tell parents before purchase that this game isn't exactly appropriate for their kids. If they buy the damn thing anyway, they should have no leverage to whine about anything game related. Simple as that.(of course this is idealistic and we all know it won't happen anytime soon.)
 

Canadamus Prime

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Gorrath said:
canadamus_prime said:
I have to wonder why we should even give a shit whether or not we get the elusive and utterly arbitrary "art" label.
Luckily, we already have it. But as to why we need it, in the United States at least, it gives us protection against censorship due to being protected speech. That is a very, very important distinction. I actually do not at all agree with them that "art" is a label that is arbitrary, not when there are immense legal ramifications at stake.
Which raises a whole other issue. Why does something need to be considered art in order to be protected from censorship due to being protected speech? Shouldn't any form of self-expression qualify whether it be "art" or not?

2xDouble said:
canadamus_prime said:
I have to wonder why we should even give a shit whether or not we get the elusive and utterly arbitrary "art" label.
Same reason anyone acts like labels mean things: Government funding.
Since when did video games need government funding?

Mimsofthedawg said:
canadamus_prime said:
I have to wonder why we should even give a shit whether or not we get the elusive and utterly arbitrary "art" label.
Because some of us don't want to only be playing with toys our whole lives.
Why not?
 

irishda

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"Art" is kind of a stupid term. But I tend to fall in Yahtzee's camp here, in that most video game stories are shit. I can count the number of truly great video game stories on one hand. The biggest reason why is character issues. Video games don't usually have one, at least on the protagonist side. Since video games hinge entirely on audience participation (unless it's a JRPG or Metal Gear Solid), every second of screen time has to be filled with action: puzzles, enemies, whatever. Anything else, and you risk having your audience get bored. There's no time for deep exposition unless that exposition is being punched into a bad guy's face. Not to mention, the protagonist is usually just an empty shell on purpose so the player can transplant themselves. The greatest video game character people tout (Gordon Freeman) is only different from a Twilight character by not being or dating a vampire. And one of the greatest video game stories people tout (Braid) is really just a subversion of a standard game trope.
 

Erttheking

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Dragonbums said:
erttheking said:
Dragonbums said:
I don't know why we keep trying to get the approval of people who don't care about games in the first place.

It's like trying to convince someone who has no interest in football that it's not just a pasttime to yell at the screen for a couple of hours.
A. We're tired of being blamed every time a shooting happens. Christ I'm surprised that video games didn't get blamed for the Boston bombing.

B. It's less we want people to appreciate video games as art, and more we want them to get off of our ass and stop censoring them, or preaching that they should be banned.

Then again I suppose at the end of the day it's a little pointless. I mean the US Supreme Court ruled that video games are legally art.
A. The torch of blame will be passed on to something else eventually. We are just taking the brunt of it now because we are new to the medium field compared to others and the US loves to put the blame on anyone but themselves for stuff like this.

B. I am too. I can sympathize with that. Again this relates back to my A point. Once they realize people aren't that fucking stupid or rather, it's takes far too much effort to convince people otherwise they will find something else to blame.

C. Also relates back to point B. Again this is yet another case of the government not putting the blame where it properly belongs. Every single game console has parental controls implemented in the system to prevent kids from playing games they don't want them to. Every single game has a rating system ranging fro eC(Early child)- Ao(Adults Only) not to mention that Gamestop and other game centric store employees will REPEATEDLY tell parents before purchase that this game isn't exactly appropriate for their kids. If they buy the damn thing anyway, they should have no leverage to whine about anything game related. Simple as that.(of course this is idealistic and we all know it won't happen anytime soon.)
Yeah, you have a point. It doesn't make having to put up with this crap any more annoying though. It doesn't help that we've been a popular target for a few decades now.
 

RJ 17

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Nov 27, 2011
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Never before have truer words been spoken in a webcomic. Bravo, good sir.