Articulate? For a Gamer

Silva

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Well said indeed, Mr Macris.

It is really time that non-gamers got with the picture and understood the proven cognitive co-ordination benefits in playing games moderately. It's time that games were seen as practice for the mind, rather than something that absorbs the brain and doesn't give it back at the end of a session.

Your last line underscored this very poignantly - if games are proven to benefit us cognitively, then in fact we should be challenging the minds of those who are closed minded about the activity.
 

Galad

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On the issue of being 'articulate', it's true that gaming does tend to take away a lot of reading time for many people (maybe I'm being ignorant as well, but I'd consider the poster above me as an exception, rather than part of the norm). Fortunately, it's not the only way to retain one's capability of eloquence. Anyone here, or on other forums, that is an active poster and posts not simply to increase their count, does their part to combat the stereotype of the uneducated gamer "punk"
 

Mr. GameBrain

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You see I have this problem all the time.

I'm an articulate fellow, who is regarded as "posh" by a lot of people when they hear me talk.
Most people are impressed by that, (or are fairly awestruck! XD), but as soon as I mention the fact I enjoy videogames as my favourite past time, all I get is a blank look from people.

The UK is just as bad on this front, but it is getting better. Since the release of the PS2/Xbox/Gamecube, people have started to take games and gaming, as a subculture, more seriously.

Eventually people will start to wise up, but it takes soo long as people can be soo stubborn.
(I mean, my Mother, bless her! She's 45 years old, and this year, she has only just learned how to use a computer! (For once Facebook acheives some good! XD))
 

Tiny116

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May 6, 2009
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What these suits need to realise that if it wasn't for the compitition stirred up by gaming computer technology would be well behind what it is.
For example MRI scanners are only able to work because of massive advancements in Graphics card technology. Gaming helps advancement more than a lot of people realise
 

Flying Dagger

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I'm very articulate, large vocabulary, proficient public speaker.
Though I'm not sure I'm a gamer by choice. Given an option I'll often read a book instead, talk to friends or go out. Only when I've run out of unread books (or hasn't been long enough to re-read any) friends or time of the day, will I turn to videogames.
And whilst I accept that the reporter was well out of line to say something like that, I think there may be more to it then most care to admit.

Reading books evidently improves your vocabulary, and spending time talking to friends will give you more confidence and practice at talking to people. Gamers by nature are an introverted bunch, often shy, rarely overconfident.
There have been tests done that compare the interaction via lines of text to interactions done face to face, and without full ability to communicate, a lot is lost. The most apparent loss is one of sarcasm, but when you think why sarcasm doesn't pan out much here, you realise there is actually quite a lot you are missing. Whilst maybe TF2 could be teaching you teamwork, it will never do so on a level like football can, purely due to the loss of interaction.

Of course this isn't going to apply to all gamers, but it does explain her line of thinking.
I mostly just love how much you've overthought what was probably a well meant compliment.
Glad to see I'm not the only one to do that sort of thing.
 

Kuliani

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Or consider this recent email I got from a fellow lobbyist, telling me that I needed to understand how trivial my industry is: "You really need to understand some cold hard facts. Cutting edge, economy changing technology the game industry is not."
You can tell your lobbyist friend that he's only about 9-10 years behind: http://www.allbusiness.com/information/publishing-industries/1120342-1.html

He probably should talk to someone, anyone, that has a Computer Science degree before making such blind claims. Also, if you REALLY feel like belittling him, you can "you're welcome" him for video games pushing the limits of computer programming far enough that his computer can spell check for him while he types his email. Oh, that and the entire movie and repercussions of the movie Avatar if he's too young to remember Windows 3.1.
 

Eldarion

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Russ Pitts said:
I love this story - and hate it. It reminds me that our work is not nearly done yet. Not by half.
Yhea, we have a lot of catching up do do.

Bowing to metacritic, being more like IGN, that sort of thing? Clearly they are doing a great job portraying gamers are intellectuals.

Sorry, I'm just still mad about you implementing review scores. Ignore the sarcasm if you want :p
 

TsunamiWombat

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Archon said:
Publisher's Note: Articulate? For a Gamer

The business world apparently still has much to learn about the realities of gaming.

Read Full Article
Great article and very true.

But I think certain things hold us back from being taken seriously like... Fratboys, 13 year old XBL players, and anything made by Team Ninja - SERIOUSLY, CONTROLLABLE TITS, WHUT?

nerdpride said:
Chasmodius said:
nerdpride said:
You think this is an amazing showcase of technology? The content is improving, but always one step behind graphics and storytelling used for movies. At least movies don't cost 60 bucks. Gameplay is available for cheap, if that's what you really wanted.

I think it's perfectly justifiable for these people to say that gamers are a bunch of dolts who make their industry by getting ripped off.
I'm not certain that I entirely agree. Movies have much more elaborate Computer-Generated Images (or whatever the favorite term for it is now) in some senses -- particularly that they look more realistic. That is partly due to the much larger budgets, but also because film images don't have to do nearly as many things as the programs that control what you see in the games. Film images have a very limited set of parameters, especially as the "camera" isn't meant to interact with the "world," nor do the objects and characters themselves necessarily have to interact with each other. Advances in things like physics modeling and on-the-fly procedural content creation probably (and I have no hard data here) owe more to the game industry than the film industry.

Also, film images can take hours or days to process and resolve. A computer (or often, super-computer) will sit there and chug away at thousands of image components forever. The time it takes doesn't really matter, though, since eventually you'll end up with a series of still images that run together into a film. It will always be the same film, and it can be shown an unlimited number of times without having to go through the processing again. Computer games, on the other hand, have are having to make new images constantly and quickly, using less available processing power. Thus, game images have traditionally been less sophisticated, but at the same time, many of the advances in efficiency come from and directly benefit games over film.

Now, if you want to talk about narrative content and cost, that's another thing altogether. If all you're looking for is a story, then the average few minutes of actual narrative content in a $50 or $60 game is a bad deal next to the hour or so you'll get out of a $10 movie. Most gamers are looking for more than just story, however: they're looking for interactivity. Films are (to the anguish of many producers) an interactive medium, in that audiences make up their own opinions and mini-narratives about what is being shown on the screen, sometimes in direct opposition to what the creators intended. Again, though, this is only going to be an hour or so of interaction, and on a fairly limited scale. Games, on the other hand, can do so over three, four, even ten hours of gameplay! True, a lot of the longer games have a lot of filler and grinding that's a pain, but as long as a gamer is immersed in the world, an interactive experience is being had. And this interactivity takes many forms: a gamer will make choices in many games about clothing, accessories, weapons, cars, etc to create their own character; a gamer may imagine events hinted at but not explained onscreen (the recent article here about Half-Life 2 is a good example); or a gamer may try to break the rules of the world and perform actions completely contrary to the story or intent of the game! These are all valid interactive experiences that can be had from most games on the market. Again, this doesn't work for all games equally (just as it doesn't work for all movies equally) but the idea that a game might provide six times the interactive content isn't outside the range of possibility.

So sure, games are expensive, and they aren't as pretty as CGI movies. But to say that gamers are "dolts" who get "ripped off" by the industry is simply ignoring a good portion of why they play, and what they get out of it.
I'm judging the final product of either form of media, of course. Efficiency in graphics technology is nice, but like you said, it's not a useful development for other fields of work. Remember, we're looking at things from the perspective of the Fortune 500 person. :)

Interactivity is a quality that depends on the person ingesting the media. I personally get much more out of books than either games or movies, so much that it's difficult to empathize with people who don't. There is much more of a mental connection with the intent of the author through rapidly following a linear story. Criticism and reflection yield some amount of interactivity, even while reading you could decide what clothing characters might be wearing, but most importantly, the reader is free to do exactly what they want to do. Videogames might someday achieve nonlinearity, but for now they're almost entirely linear and slow, oftentimes offset with an option of being "good" or "bad" (whatever that means to gamers and game developers).

Someone posted something about the amazing experience of Mass Effect. But I'd say that it's nothing compared to some serious Sci-Fi. And the best, of course, is the real world experience of putting something visceral together and profiting from it, which is what these businesspeople take part in. This is why I study engineering.
Efficiency in graphics isn't useful? Tell that to the producers of Avatar and see if they giggle at you from the giant stacks of money they're swimming it. Tell that to people who use simulations academically.

Mass Effect is nothing compared to serious Sci-Fi? Mass Effect is more or less every Sci-Fi convention distilled. It's Star Trek melted into Star Wars. I'm not saying it's the greatest thing since Asimov picked up a pen, but your discounting videogames unfairly.

If money is the bottom line for you Mr. Fortune 500, let me point out the Videogames Industry made more money then the film industry last year by a WIDE margin.
 

Lullabye

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My gosh this is just a punch in in the gut. I knew gamers had a negative look to most of the world, but inarticulate?
Mayhap it bodes true for those who have yet to hit puberty, and possibly for those who identify with other groups like frat boys or jocks and such, but to blatantly make such derogatory statements...I thought we were above this?
If such articulate individuals insist on behaving like fascist reactionaries then then perhaps the battle isn't worth the effort. I mean, do we really care what people like them think? All we need to do is have a few persons in appropriate political and business positions that support our cause(so as to smooth over any issues brought up by the industry, and people opposed to it).
 

Russ Pitts

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Dark Templar said:
Russ Pitts said:
I love this story - and hate it. It reminds me that our work is not nearly done yet. Not by half.
Yhea, we have a lot of catching up do do.

Bowing to metacritic, being more like IGN, that sort of thing? Clearly they are doing a great job portraying gamers are intellectuals.

Sorry, I'm just still mad about you implementing review scores. Ignore the sarcasm if you want :p
One could counter-argue that by playing the same game - in our own way - we not only make a point about how the game should be played, but have a chance to win in the process.

Or one could just be a sarcastic jerk to the EIC in the comment thread of the Publisher's column and see how far that gets one ;)
 

DanDeFool

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Aug 19, 2009
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You want something that'll make you take videogames seriously?

FARMVILLE!!!

According to the latest rankings, over 16 MILLION people are playing it on facebook. That's enough to rival, or even exceed World of Warcraft's subscriber base. And it's just a browser game about farming! 'EFFING FARMING!!!!

My point here is that if some random jerk (Mark Pincus, CEO of Zynga, in this case) can get that many people involved with a pointless browser game about farming, how the HELL can anyone consider gaming to be "trivial?"

Personally, I take this back to the kind of training and mental programming that businesspeople and salespeople receive. It doesn't take too many self-help and sales-education tapes (I've listened to a few of them) to get that these people are being taught to disrespect virtually all leisure activities and think of them as wastes of time. It makes perfect sense to me why wouldn't take gaming seriously. And when you add people like Frumpy Mom, Michael Atkinson, and all the talking heads at Fox News into the mix, you have a recipe for a lot of bad press for gamers.

Of course, that doesn't make them any less wrong.
 

whaleswiththumbs

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sooperman said:
You know, this makes me wonder: what do these people do for fun, other than video games? Golf? Watch movies?
I don't know, but until they get on the wagon with me they can keep doing it and not tell me about it..

I'm going to start using that"You very smart..for a non-gamer"
 

Eldarion

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Russ Pitts said:
Dark Templar said:
Russ Pitts said:
I love this story - and hate it. It reminds me that our work is not nearly done yet. Not by half.
Yhea, we have a lot of catching up do do.

Bowing to metacritic, being more like IGN, that sort of thing? Clearly they are doing a great job portraying gamers are intellectuals.

Sorry, I'm just still mad about you implementing review scores. Ignore the sarcasm if you want :p
One could counter-argue that by playing the same game - in our own way - we not only make a point about how the game should be played, but have a chance to win in the process.

Or one could just be a sarcastic jerk to the EIC in the comment thread of the Publisher's column and see how far that gets one ;)
Point taken. I love that I can pick on you and we're still cool :)

I just want to be totally clear on my position on that matter.

At any rate, I always thought of he escapist as an intellectual site. One of the only places on the internet where mature discussions on a variety of topics can be found. And this is a game site. We talk about a lot of controversial things, a lot of silly useless things and a lot of things pertaining to games all in the same place. The escapist is unique in the fact that I can have a discussion about something like say, religion or abortion where both parties present full and valid arguments in a calm and mature manner, where no matter what either of you think you can come away at least respecting the other persons position. This is a great example of the "intellectual gamer". One feels like this mature discussion is expected in a place like this. The community, the columnists, the insightful articles and the excellent game reviews re all a part of this. Those other sites that (we are by your, logic behind in some way or not as current) are nothing like this site. I'm gonna sound like a dottering old man here complaining about change for a minute, but in implementing review scores you're tampering with part of the formula that made this site different than most game sites. That difference is the level of maturity. We are the intellectual game site. If we want gaming to be taken seriously as a professional industry and a worthy pastime are we really the ones behind the curve? Or is the escapist what more game sites should aspire to be?

No matter what you guys decide to do I am gonna support the escapist because its a great website. Just want in on record that when this was controversy, I respectfully disagreed. :)
 

shadow skill

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Well these people did not think carefully about what they were saying. Not unlike the untold legions of fools that flood the internet with their poorly thought out opinions, who sadly think that their opinion is inherently valuable just because they happen to have one.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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nerdpride said:
I'm judging the final product of either form of media, of course. Efficiency in graphics technology is nice, but like you said, it's not a useful development for other fields of work. Remember, we're looking at things from the perspective of the Fortune 500 person. :)
A great many of the developments made in this very field ARE useful to other fields, some of which are beyond the entertainment industry.

nerdpride said:
Interactivity is a quality that depends on the person ingesting the media. I personally get much more out of books than either games or movies, so much that it's difficult to empathize with people who don't.
Yet is is the one unique quality that games have. Books distinguish themselves from the spoken word simply by nature of making a tale concrete, permanant - final you might say. Stage Plays distinguish themsleves by reintroducing a performer, movies by careful construction of a particular vision of a narrative. Without interactivity, at best all one has is a movie.

nerdpride said:
There is much more of a mental connection with the intent of the author through rapidly following a linear story.
I don't necessarily agree with this statement. This is not to say that I do not enjoy reading, but rather I resent this assertion being made so flatly without it being properly qualified as an opinion.
nerdpride said:
Criticism and reflection yield some amount of interactivity, even while reading you could decide what clothing characters might be wearing, but most importantly, the reader is free to do exactly what they want to do.
There is a limited degree of interaction, but in the purest sense you have little choice. The charcters are going to say and do what the author intended - you are free to interpret these things of course but I'm not sure I'd be so quick to mistake observation with interaction. Truth be told, the only real interactivity you have with a book is a choice to read the next line or turn the page.

nerdpride said:
Videogames might someday achieve nonlinearity, but for now they're almost entirely linear and slow, oftentimes offset with an option of being "good" or "bad" (whatever that means to gamers and game developers).
I can gree with this. Video game narratives are almost entirely linear but thankfully it is not simply the obvious narrative that we must rely on. While the set pieces are often laid in front of us and the trail between set in stone, simply allowing a player the ability to control precisely how one overcomes a given obstacle is far more than any other medium has offered.

There are plenty of games that are entirely non-linear but they lack any coherent plot as a result. Roguelikes are an entire category of games where the experience changes each time you start yet none of these offer anything but a most basic story (You are an adventurer, so therefore you must adventure). I am convinced that a solution to the linear narrative exists and I'd bet a substantial quantity of money that the answer lies in improvements in AI. In spite of what seems like massive improvements over the years, the basic technology that runs a game has changed little, and in almost every circumstance an NPC is just an exceptionally elaborate set of determinstic logic. Fuzzy logic was one of the first big attempts but it succeeded at little more than making the process of prorgamming AI easier. Neural Networks have promise (essentially a Neural Network is a simple mathemitcal model of the operation of a neuron) but the sheer number of computations required to process even basic input has kept it from appearing in games. Until a chracter has the capacity to generate goals more complex than "find health" or "follow path to node x" or even "run script kick_box.scp" there is no such thing as a dynamic story - just a story with an ever increasinng number or routes to take to the conclusion.

Still, I would point to several notable examples of late. While still very tehnicaly linear, Mass Effect 2 and Heavy Rain represents an attempt to introduce greater degrees of non-linearity. While many set pieces are laid out in advance, the inevitable result of many of them is far from pre-determined.

Someone posted something about the amazing experience of Mass Effect. But I'd say that it's nothing compared to some serious Sci-Fi. And the best, of course, is the real world experience of putting something visceral together and profiting from it, which is what these businesspeople take part in. This is why I study engineering.[/quote]
 

JackShandy

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Man, I hate reading articles like this. Because I can remember reading articles like this years ago, and thinking; "Man, I'm sure Games and Gamers will finally be given widespread recognition as a valid art form in the far-off future of Two-Thousand and Ten!"
 

Notashrimp09

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Chasmodius said:
Notashrimp09 said:
In her opinion, my characters were "just pathetic nerds" and that was entertainment.
Sounds like you had a closed-minded idiot for an instructor. All of my writing instructors have been amazingly supportive of all the writing efforts of students (even the guy who came in with Star Wars fanfic!), and they always graded on effort, not ability. The key to constructive criticism is not to tear a person's ideas down, but to suggest ways in which their vision can be more effectively conveyed. (Also, to figure out how to make their own universes, which could well be better than that of Star Wars!)
I've been meaning to come back to this now that I finished another level of "creative" writing, and poised to begin what will be my last.

One of my stories was a blatant satire focusing on people you see around a college campus, based loosely on the General Prologue of The Canterbury Tales and Chaucer's use of estates satire to profile the people of his time (rather than come up with our own ideas, or work on individual style, we had to create a story to be an homage to someone else's work).

However, in an attempt to duck the easy profiling of Gamers/Geeks I made it the bait. I created three central characters: (1) law-school-bound student, (2) med-school-bound student, and (3) English student/vocalist. I gave them a hobby apiece: (1) competitive gaming, (2) read comics/played D&D, (3) watched the occasional anime. Each hobby mentioned as a passing enjoyment, so these characters essentially could've been anyone. Rather than re-create a stereotype/estates satire, I divided that type-casting amongst three people who would otherwise be considered "normal" and downplayed it as much as possible. The satire resided in the audience's expectations, a way of saying "the joke's on you."

When I pointed this out at the end of my workshop, my (not the same one) teacher's response was something along the lines of it being mean of me to assume the audience would think that way about a character.

Nevermind that every single person in the class profiled and limited the three to the geek stereotype.

Depending on one's constitution and tastes for satire, I'll admit the story in this regards could be interpreted as mean, I certainly only intended to make a point in satirical form. But I wasn't about to apologize for purposefully playing on the audience's assumptions, and then doing so.