Asexuality

[Silvanus]

Asexuals are not a minority, they're people with an issue (either psychological or physiological). And observing healthy humans and animals is evidence enough that asexuality isn't normal or healthy. Healthy humans and animals upon reaching adulthood desire sex. Not all the time, and libidos do vary, but there is a drive; hormones and evolution drive it. I'm not impolite, I'm stating an opinion which may be politically incorrect.

My problem is that is is baseless, not that it's politically incorrect. These are just claims. "Observing healthy humans and animals" is not supportive evidence; all I need point out is that some humans do not desire sex, and live perfectly happy lives.

Provide some actual evidence.

I'm not "dismissing" the thread as "another social justice thread". I'm stating that it is one. Because there aren't enough on this web site already.

Simply discussing a group of people, in a polite and measured manner as the OP has done, is too much?

 

[maxben]

I had a question, actually:
If a bi-sexual person is attracted to either gender, and a pansexual person attracted to people regardless of their gender, how are they different, exactly? >>

That's a good question. Imagine that you are attracted to gingers. You see this girl and go "wow she's such an attractive ginger" because that is a specific trait that attracts you. Now imagine that you just don't care about hair colours and you see the same girl, your reaction would be more along the lines of "wow, she's such an attractive girl". The ginger hair colour might be part of the parcel you find attractive, but it is not your focus. Bisexuals do see genders as a duality and are attracted to men as men and women as women, while pansexuals tend to be attracted to a person and not focus on the gender. It's a subtle difference, and I personally don't think that it's an important difference. I wonder if pansexuals see the rest of us as "gender fetishists", obsessing on a particular aspect of a person.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

My problem is that is is baseless, not that it's politically incorrect. These are just claims. "Observing healthy humans and animals" is not supportive evidence; all I need point out is that some humans do not desire sex, and live perfectly happy lives.

Some humans do not desire sex and live perfectly happy lives. That's true. But it's neither normal nor the behaviour of healthy humans. Genuine asexuals have an underlying physiological or psychological reason for it. Anyone else claiming to be asexual without an issue is a liar.

Simply discussing a group of people, in a polite and measured manner as the OP has done, is too much?

IMO, yes quite frankly it is. I'm just tired of the constant, incessant threads on sexuality, diversity, feminism, misogyny, yadda yadda. There should really be a separate forum for those issues, similar to R&P. The social crusades are tiresome and it's completely destroyed the "family friendly" ethos of the site. It's no longer a fun, light-hearted place to hang out, talk about games and geekery and it's threads like this one that are to blame.

 

[The Lunatic]

I tend to shy away from the "Asexual" label.

Simply, I'm not as interested in sex as others. I've done it, it's okay. Enjoyable, but, it seems people focus far too much on it.

I'm content with things as they are. I'm mostly gay, I don't really seem to have much interest in romance or sexuality.

I'm interested on a rare occasion, but, never much beyond that.

I've never really cared to make a deal of it or declare "This is who I am". So, I guess I don't entirely agree with the purpose of the thread, but, far be it for me to tell others what they can or can't do when it comes to expressing oneself.

 

[Teepop]

There's no pill to cure such a thing. If it was physiological such as a genetic condition, illness or hormonal imbalance, there may or may not be ways to address it. If it's psychological, such as a result of experiences in childhood, upbringing, parenting, whatever, a psychiatrist might be able to help address the underlying issue. But I'm sorry to say, and don't mean it offensively, but there is something wrong if you are genuinely asexual. Healthy adults are not asexual.

I am not offended and I agree that I am abnormal.

You took me too literally over the pill cure. It was just an analogy. What I mean't when I said "if there was a pill that could cure it I would not take it" is that whilst I am quite obviously abnormal it is all that I know and I wouldn't choose to be like everyone else as I see the advantages of being what I am. In truth I view myself as being slightly superior by not being a slave to animal instincts.

I mean many heterosexuals destroy their marriages, families, careers and as a result cause severe damage to their children because they can't control their sexual urges and cheat on their partners. I sympathise with sexual people if they have urges so strong that they are prepared to put everything on the line in that way. It must be like a drug addiction or something.

Rather you than me! Heck I wish I could offer sexuals a cure for their condition.


There is no psychological cause for my condition. As I say I had an identical upbringing to my siblings and I've never had an interest in sex or a fascination with genitals.

It was like I never reached Freuds Phallic stage. I don't associate pleasure with genitals (I find them repulsive) although even when I have tried kissing I found that very mechanical and with no sensation at all. Like kissing my hand or my keyboard. It was obvious to me that the other people I've done it with were feeling something quite powerful that was totally lost on me.

Physically I am a normal healthy person. I've just put it down to some kind of random genetic defect or perhaps it was caused by some medication or some chemicals in food that my mother consumed when I was in the womb. She has always been a very healthy individual that ate well, didn't smoke, didn't drink and got regular exercise etc so it's nothing obvious. Same applies to my father.

I've thought about it of course but I don't really dwell on the cause because as I say I am not looking for a fix.

 

[Lieju]

Well, I'd hardly say that me staying quiet means that I'm pretending to be a woman mentally, or being straight. It means that I'm being careful, because the world is filled with jerks who'll target you regardless of what or who you are, as long as they see something they disagree with.

Yes, but if people consider you straight, and they are mistaken, you are forced into hiding by omission.

As for jokes about stuff that I suppose I'd fit into, yes, I've encountered that, but jokes are jokes, and unless the people telling the joke is a jerk, they're not serious. As for negative stereotypes, there's a lot of those too, for every kind of person. However, I do't see myself as part of a group, so I'm aware of that the stereotypes are not relevant to me. I too find some of the people trying to force themselves to fit a certain image to be silly.

Attitudes matter, though.
If it's easy to joke about a group of people, it's easy to demonize them or not care what happens to them.
I have seen this in family members.

Them going 'well why does what happens to gays have anything to do with us?'.
Well, maybe you know someone who isn't straight?
And maybe it would be less easy for you to stay quiet when bad things happen to gays if you have reason to believe they are actual people?

Also, I've actually been told that I'm asexual because I don't want to have sex as a woman, when I tried to let my mother know that I'm attracted to both sexes. The only person who tried to tell me that I might just be imagining being a guy mentally had a good reason to not want to hear about (shouldn't be hard to figure out why) and we talked it out. No biggie, none of the people the closest to me had an issue with it, and one of my brothers even went like: "Yeah, that makes a lot of sense,", while everyone else has been really supportive.

Well, that's nice.
Unfortunately I know plenty of people who aren't as lucky.
I know transpeople who have just been outright told by their families they will not have discussions about it, and it's being treated like a dirty secret.
If there was more information about it, maybe it wouldn't have happened.

However, I'm careful with who I associate with, I've always been. People are jerks, hoping to screw you over in any way possible. I'm of the opinion that as long as I know it, it's a fact, and that's, along with my family acknowledging it and accepting is the only thing I really need. Strangers have nothing to do with it, and therefore, I don't see the need for a flag.

I'm not one for labels either, but I have been sort of forced into the situation.
And strangers will have something to do with it if they act in a way that affects me.

Will argue I should not have the same rights they do, attack people like me on the street if we are open about our relationships, etc.
The one time I was physically attacked for it was by a complete stranger.

Or have kids who aren't straight and/or cis and then are horrible parents to them?

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

**snip**

Hey there! Very informative. I got most of this from an asexual friend of mine, and I have previously made use of the difference between sexual and romantic attraction (I have another friend who is bisexual but hetero-romantic, but had never heard of separating the two, so I helped her out of a mental quandary by pointing out that she could be bisexual but still only want relationships with men).

Anyway, I did want to make a suggestion about your OP. One thing that helped me a bit understanding asexuality was considering it on a bell curve.

See, I'm somewhat hyper-sexual. I'm on the far end of the bell curve from asexuality, so before I pictured the bell curve, I had a difficult time understanding how a person could not want sex (since I pretty much always want sex). But when I considered it as one large scale, with asexuality moving up to demisexuality to people who are a bit under-sexed to "normal" to people who are a bit oversexed to me and finishing out in so called "sex addicts" - I could picture that and see how each group transitioned into the next.

Anyway I thought that might make it easier for some of the critics already saying dumb things (and I'm not even through the first page yet) to understand what you're talking about.

 

[Skatologist]

Huh, despite some, let's say less than stellar comments, this is pretty informative ,if not a bit confusing thread and OP. I don't think I actually am asexual because I still have a sexual attraction to let's just say more feminized and androgynous traits and people, but I may have a bit of a desire to be asexual.[footnote] Or maybe pansexual or bi with or without more sexual thoughts, or maybe something clearer because although labels divide and treat people on less than an individual bases, people can better understand you with them. It'd be difficult to say all of my feelings regarding my gender and sex so labels could actually help a lot for that. [/footnote]

I might be considered a bit of a Grey A since, 1, I don't actually experience sexual thoughts too often anymore [footnote] ...but let's just say I acted like the typical 14 year old boy before recently. Recently being about a year or so. [/footnote] and 2, I tend not to feel the need to act on my sexual thoughts as soon as I have them, even if my time is free. I wonder if it's because I rarely find the greatest absolute pleasure in it anymore or I'm thinking about other things [footnote] Which I constantly am and not as distractions or anything. I can't focus on my sexual attraction for more than 3 minutes without thinking of something else. Could always chalk that up to the internet age and obsession, but I'm still unsure of what's motivating it and I'm not just going to say it's just my nature. [/footnote] or something else entirely. Despite this, I think I would still be willing to have sex, I just wouldn't pursue it or feel the absolute need to have it. I'm sure I could have a perfectly happy life or even romantic relationship without it, but I'd probably also like the experiences it could possibly bring.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

Snip

Thank you, that is a very good example, do you mind if I quote you in the OP?

(Sorry on my phone and messed up the quote, I'll fix it when I can)

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I seem to have a VERY strong romantic inclination towards women (which is why I devour every lesbian centric book/movie/whatever I can find) hetero stuff just bores me to tears
That said I have no idea if or how I translates to real life

That happens. The hetero, homo, and bi -romantic labels aren't just for asexuals. As noted in my post above, I have a friend who once said to me "I really like having sex with women, but I'd never date one, so I must be straight." And, while I agreed that was a fine option, I suggested the possibility that she might find the phrase "bisexual but hetero-romantic" as more accurate of her actual feelings, and (once I explained what hetero-romantic meant) she agreed.

Also, I too absolutely love lesbian fiction. Have you read the works of Jacqueline Carey (particularly Santa Olivia)? She is my very favorite author for many reasons (her command of language is just amazing) but one of those reasons is that she writes bisexuality in general and lesbian relationships in particular so well.

 

[manic_depressive13]

I had no idea asexuals had such an ugly flag. If they deleted any one colour it would look ten times better. As it is the purple just looks tacked on. It's a bit jarring.

 

[snowpuppy]

Here's a fairly funny comic focusing on an asexual guy going through the plot of 50 shades of grey. It's quite funny.
To address those who are against labelling things, making it next to impossible to talk about an issue does not help equality.
Finally, we name things so people know what we are talking about. If you cut the bullshit and just define asexual as has nil interest in sex, then find a way to let people know that (hello thread), you can talk to and about people that are asexual when specific issue relating to them being asexual arise. if that doesn't pertain to you, absorb knowledge for later and move on. Provide constructive criticism, don't tell people to stop trying to label shit. If it were derogatory I could understand, but FFS let people have a word to describe them in situations where no other word would fit. Ahh, fuck you Escapist forums you are more narcissistic than youtube comments. I'm done with my account here.

Goodbye

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

[HEADING=3]Demisexual[/HEADING]
Demisexuals (Demi for short), are people who are for the most part asexual, but will experience sexual attraction only toward a person with whom they have a significantly strong bond. This person does not have to be an S.O, they can also be a best friend, colleague or anyone else.

[HEADING=3]Grey-A[/HEADING]
These people do not feel the asexual label fits them completely. They are asexual with exceptions.

Examples:

-May not experience sexual attraction for long periods of time, but only every so often.

-Sexually attracted to someone but with no desire to act on it[footnote]Outside of reasons like "they're married"[/footnote]

-Asexual but fantasize about sleeping with people who are typically unavailable (celebrities, video game characters, ext)

I don't think not being horny counts as a sexual orientation, but I can go with "live and let live".

What's makes zero sense though are these things I've quoted. These are not sexual orientations. Sexual orientations define who/what you are attracted to, not how/under what conditions you are attracted to them.

Edit: took edginess out of post.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Snip

Thank you, that is a very good example, do you mind if I quote you in the OP?

(Sorry on my phone and messed up the quote, I'll fix it when I can)

Hm? Oh, um sure! ^^

**pause for google image search**

I was going to pull up a cool image to summarize what I said (possibly with a bell curve or something) but my google image fu has failed me. ^^;;

 

[zerragonoss]

Some humans do not desire sex and live perfectly happy lives. That's true. But it's neither normal nor the behaviour of healthy humans. Genuine asexuals have an underlying physiological or psychological reason for it. Anyone else claiming to be asexual without an issue is a liar.

Why do you believe this though? Their is a legitimately helpful evolutionary reason for asexuals, in that they allow for more child caretakers without more children. They also appear in high enough numbers around 1%, to be consider a standard trait. So for no you are insisting on calling apxotimaly 1% of people broken or damaged for being who they are. Unless you give a reason (and repeating the same baseless statement over and over again is not a reason), it looks like you are just being a jerk because the idea of someone not wanting sex seems unnatural to you, which is stupid.

 

[DarkRawen]

Well, I'd hardly say that me staying quiet means that I'm pretending to be a woman mentally, or being straight. It means that I'm being careful, because the world is filled with jerks who'll target you regardless of what or who you are, as long as they see something they disagree with.

Yes, but if people consider you straight, and they are mistaken, you are forced into hiding by omission.

Actually, I'm not forced into hiding at all, I'm selective about whom I share personal information with. Big difference, there's a choice involved. They're not... technically mistaken if they assume that I like guys, though, they're just not aware of the whole story, and I am still officially a female, so there's that.

As for jokes about stuff that I suppose I'd fit into, yes, I've encountered that, but jokes are jokes, and unless the people telling the joke is a jerk, they're not serious. As for negative stereotypes, there's a lot of those too, for every kind of person. However, I do't see myself as part of a group, so I'm aware of that the stereotypes are not relevant to me. I too find some of the people trying to force themselves to fit a certain image to be silly.

Attitudes matter, though.
If it's easy to joke about a group of people, it's easy to demonize them or not care what happens to them.
I have seen this in family members.

Them going 'well why does what happens to gays have anything to do with us?'.
Well, maybe you know someone who isn't straight?
And maybe it would be less easy for you to stay quiet when bad things happen to gays if you have reason to believe they are actual people?

I'd tell them off then, honestly, family is a bit different than other people, and if I heard my family talk like that about anyone (seriously, of course), I'd be annoyed. Heck, I'm the first person to be like: "Seriously? Why would you say that?" if something like that happens. However, that's family, people I care about, and I am able know the difference between a joke and them being serious. That said, I am also used to accepting that opinions are opinions, and some opinions are not worth discussing because of narrow-minded they are.

Also, I've actually been told that I'm asexual because I don't want to have sex as a woman, when I tried to let my mother know that I'm attracted to both sexes. The only person who tried to tell me that I might just be imagining being a guy mentally had a good reason to not want to hear about (shouldn't be hard to figure out why) and we talked it out. No biggie, none of the people the closest to me had an issue with it, and one of my brothers even went like: "Yeah, that makes a lot of sense,", while everyone else has been really supportive.

Well, that's nice.
Unfortunately I know plenty of people who aren't as lucky.
I know transpeople who have just been outright told by their families they will not have discussions about it, and it's being treated like a dirty secret.
If there was more information about it, maybe it wouldn't have happened.

I am aware of that there's people who aren't as lucky as me, but it's not really a commonly discussed thing in my family, especially since I'm not fond of discussing emotions. I do think that it helps that one of the first things I told them when I said it was that; "I don't need you to call me by another name or refer to me as a guy. I only need you to acknowledge it and accept it." We talk about it when it's relevant, but not that often. People don't really have much interest in that kinda stuff.

However, I'm careful with who I associate with, I've always been. People are jerks, hoping to screw you over in any way possible. I'm of the opinion that as long as I know it, it's a fact, and that's, along with my family acknowledging it and accepting is the only thing I really need. Strangers have nothing to do with it, and therefore, I don't see the need for a flag.

I'm not one for labels either, but I have been sort of forced into the situation.
And strangers will have something to do with it if they act in a way that affects me.

Will argue I should not have the same rights they do, attack people like me on the street if we are open about our relationships, etc.
The one time I was physically attacked for it was by a complete stranger.

Or have kids who aren't straight and/or cis and then are horrible parents to them?

There are strangers who thinks all sort of messed up things, I'd say move on and ignore them. It sucks that you were attacked for it, though, I hope they were taken to the court or something for it, because that's not acceptable.

As for horrible parents, there's a lot of them, sadly. I have to admit, I have not told anything to my father, because he never cared much for us as all, but I'd rather just not associate with him than to tell him something he has no right to know. He's a pretty horrible dad, in that he refuses to talk to my oldest brother (or even acknowledge him) because he had the guts to ask if he could help him with getting his license, and that my younger sister feels that he's a stranger despite spending every other weekend at his place for many years.

So yeah, horrible parents are horrible, and they can be horrible for no reason whatsoever. They're only humans, and, as I said earlier, people can be jerks.


Also, captcha: Fun with flags.

Yes, Captcha. Fun.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

You answered your own question, by using the word "either".

"If a bi-sexual person is attracted to either gender..."

"Either" implies a binary choice between male or female. Pansexuality incorporates attraction to transgender people and gender fluid people as well.

Except that many/most bisexuals don't make that distinction. I identify as bisexual and I have certainly been attracted to transgender and genderfluid individuals.

The "bi" in bisexual refers to both hetero and homo, not specifically men and women.

Now, that said, I do understand the reasoning why some individuals chose to break off and form up under the term "pan". While I disagree, I respect their decision to do so, and won't say more than that.

However, I don't like it when people attempt to paint all bisexuals under the same brush. Bisexuality includes a wide variety of varied preferences - claiming that all bisexuals feel the same way because someone a hundred or so years ago gave us a funny name is just silly.

(And if you weren't making that claim, but simply explaining the reasons why pan broke off, then fine, I don't mean to get snippy - it's just that Z. Amaranth already fielded this question and did so while acknowledging that not all bisexuals believe the same thing - thanks Z! - likely because Z and I have had arguments about this in the past and have come to something of a detente.)

 

[Musette]

I'm glad to see visibility efforts for asexuality outside of the typical spaces that I come across it, even if I have some reservations about how most asexual visibility is handled. Too many tangential concepts get lumped into the efforts and I think that information dump is responsible for a good chunk of the negative responses. Sometimes, asexuality alone is enough for people to scream "excessive labeling!!!" when no, it isn't excessive if no other term matches your feelings and experiences. Still, when demisexuality and gray-a come into the picture, I think that tends to make people more hostile to the concept of asexuality as well as the the aforementioned labels (I consider the two to be valid experiences, but not really orientations because they discuss intensity instead of direction of attraction.)

In some ways, I'm sure that adding romantic orientation to the mix causes a lot of those negative reactions, but I think that's better than the "Asexuals can still love" rhetoric that is only referring to romantic asexuals while basically trying to make people forget that some of us have never been interested in people sexually or romantically. To be honest, I wish romantic orientation was discussed outside of asexual discourse more often, but I guess that can't be avoided because mismatched orientations (romantic orientation doesn't line up with sexual orientation) are incredibly common among asexuals and very easy to notice. (Hell, I feel like a minority within a minority on most asexual spaces for that reason, and it makes 99% of the discourse irrelevant to my life.)

Also, I can't help but raise my eyebrow when people start pointing fingers claiming that asexuals are liars/attention seeking/special snowflakes because most of us don't really talk about asexuality (or really use the label at all) when we're offline. I'm sure that most people think I'm straight, and I don't go out of my way to correct them at all. I don't pretend to be interested in sex or romance, but I honestly don't have the patience to deal with the Asexuality 101 or the super invasive line of questioning that often comes with discussing the orientation. To be honest, I'd be more likely to tell someone about my asexuality if they already knew about the concept, but even then, my sexuality just doesn't come up in conversation at all, and I'm not the sort that goes out of my way to talk about the subject.

Sometimes, I feel like I should be helping with asexuality visibility (especially because I don't think the current standard for visibility efforts is all that effective), but I have no desire to put myself on a soapbox or scrutinized under a microscope because of something that I don't experience. I would much rather people recognize me for what I do enjoy ("musician" is easily the most relevant label in my life) than for what I'm apathetic to (ie: I don't think my asexuality, aromanticism, or agnosticism are really all that meaningful beyond knowing what not to waste my time with). Still, I think visibility is a good thing, regardless of if directly affects me or not.

 

[Erttheking]

I'll might attract ire from people, but is this reall necessary? Groups like homosexuals or transexuals face prosecution from society, and therefor have a need for communities that will fight for acceptance and react to discrimination.

Asexuals don't really need that, it might be good for youth who have trouble with sexual identity, but besides that, I doubt there's any discrimination that's targeted solely on them.

You're wrong. There is. Asexual people get bullied for being who they are.

http://asexualnews.com/index.php/cake-recipes/1239-bullied-for-being-asexual-my-bullying-story-by-camila-hordones

Also I think a good chunk of the people in this very thread accusing asexual people of being "special snowflakes" show that quite a few people deny that they even exist and that they just want attention.

 

[DestinyCall]

I'll might attract ire from people, but is this reall necessary? Groups like homosexuals or transexuals face prosecution from society, and therefor have a need for communities that will fight for acceptance and react to discrimination.

Asexuals don't really need that, it might be good for youth who have trouble with sexual identity, but besides that, I doubt there's any discrimination that's targeted solely on them.

As a group, asexuals are more often ignored than they are persecuted for their orientation. However, they DO face discrimination, both from straight people and members of the LGBT community. The most common form of discrimination comes from people who don't understand asexuality or believe it doesn't exist. If you describe yourself as asexual, you are very likely to come under fire from people telling you that you are either wrong to believe that, faking it, or you have a hormonal imbalance and should see a doctor. Many people do not recognize asexuality as a valid orientation and think that people should basically pick a different option because "none of the above" isn't a choice.

Another related form of discrimination involves people who accuse asexuals of identifying in this way to draw attention to themselves or to be part of an elite/special group, rather than an ordinary straight/gay person who just doesn't have sex that much. Or they might accuse the asexual person of labeling themselves to justify their own virginity/celibacy - telling people they don't WANT to have sex so it doesn't seem so pathetic when they can't get any. These judgmental and harsh views of asexuality are quite common and miss the truth that there is a great deal of variety in how people experience sexuality, romance, and sex drive.

Our society tends to view things in terms of a sexual binary - gay or straight, man or woman. People who do not fit neatly into those categories tend to be marginalized and misunderstood. Just reading a single page of this forum post gives many examples of this kind of behavior ... so yes, I think an Asexuality Awarness month is necessary and important for reducing ignorance and intolerance directed at a minority orientation.