Asturiel's Weekly: Individualism

[UnusualStranger]

I am sure that individualism is not a detriment to society. Leaders do need to be questioned, sometimes when it isn't necessary, because it allows us to closely examine the action that is about to be taken. The real trick is knowing when you are dealing with a individual, or when you are dealing with an idiot.

True say, when people can question stupid shit all the time it leaves the chance it might be justified.

But so many people are idiots how do I tell?!?!?!

Didn't I say that was the trick? If I knew how to tell, I would. Really. Idiots are an overwhelming population, and should be found quickly.

 

[GodofDisaster]

I believe, that individualism all depends on the person themselves.

Sure their unique choices could lead them to great and deserving fame, but at other times it can lead them down the wrong path.

However there are some people in this world who want to their own individual simply for the purpose of seeking attention.

 

[Monocle Man]

I am sure that individualism is not a detriment to society. Leaders do need to be questioned, sometimes when it isn't necessary, because it allows us to closely examine the action that is about to be taken. The real trick is knowing when you are dealing with a individual, or when you are dealing with an idiot.

True say, when people can question stupid shit all the time it leaves the chance it might be justified.

But so many people are idiots how do I tell?!?!?!

Didn't I say that was the trick? If I knew how to tell, I would. Really. Idiots are an overwhelming population, and should be found quickly.

There's a little trick that should be relatively accurate:
First, verify that you are not an idiot.
Once you're sure you're not an idiot and you find an individual/idiot, you just listen to what that person says and watch what he does. Now use your logic and see if it makes sense, if you can understand his point of view.

If it makes sense or you can understand why he would act like that (you don't necessarily have to condone it), you're most likely not dealing with an idiot.

OP: Individualism is good, without it society cannot progress. To not take everything for granted, to not depend on others to solve petty problems, to not be afraid to show your ideals. It's not just about that either, it's also about not caring what the masses think about the things you do, it's about caring how it will benefit something.

 

[UnusualStranger]

There's a little trick that should be relatively accurate:
First, verify that you are not an idiot.
Once you're sure you're not an idiot and you find an individual/idiot, you just listen to what that person says and watch what he does. Now use your logic and see if it makes sense, if you can understand his point of view.

If it makes sense or you can understand why he would act like that (you don't necessarily have to condone it), you're most likely not dealing with an idiot.

OP: Individualism is good, without it society cannot progress. To not take everything for granted, to not depend on others to solve petty problems, to not be afraid to show your ideals. It's not just about that either, it's also about not caring what the masses think about the things you do, it's about caring how it will benefit something.

Wait a minute.....Thats it? Judge someone elses actions based on logic? I thought the interesting thing about people is that a lot of the time they do not make any sense, but keep living anyway. Besides, wouldn't emotions usually screw up the results, as someone who is angry, grieving, sad, or any emotional disability may make people seem irrational to me? Not really trying to shoot ya or anything, I just....don't think it's quite that easy.

 

[Monocle Man]

Wait a minute.....Thats it? Judge someone elses actions based on logic? I thought the interesting thing about people is that a lot of the time they do not make any sense, but keep living anyway. Besides, wouldn't emotions usually screw up the results, as someone who is angry, grieving, sad, or any emotional disability may make people seem irrational to me? Not really trying to shoot ya or anything, I just....don't think it's quite that easy.

Ah, yes, emotions, the bane of rationality...

Firstly, I believe people do make sense. You pass a person who walks slowly from the left because there's a splash of water at his right, you keep an as straight as possible posture at all times to seem more confident, taller and intimidating, you don't so you won't stand out of the crowd. And so on. You do everything you do for a reason, that reason can be logical or instinctive.

Secondly, my trick judges the behaviour of a single moment. I'm sure even Einstein had some moments of stupidity throughout his life.
You should judge at multiple moments to get a good idea of whether the person is really an idiot or didn't just forget to turn on common sense.

As for the emotions that may cloud one's mind, you need to have a little empathy.
Why did he punch him? What made him so angry? Was he robbed, or did the other person do nothing more than snicker after the angry guy stumbled over a lose tile?
When you're angry, sad or such you don't think clearly, no, but surely there must be a reason to justify putting you into such a state.
Bursting out into a throw-with-everything-nearby frenzy because your pen fell off the table is stupid, getting cranky because since the beginning of the day many other things went wrong is understandable, although still unjust to vent your frustration on people who don't have anything to do with any of your misfortunes.

When I judge, I compare others to myself, therefore my views on those things may not be as they should be. I cannot imagine how differently an emotional unstable person thinks as I cannot comprehend how they go from depression to bliss in mere seconds. I consider the behaviour, not the person, so I neglect disabilities.

A person is stupid or not. A person will never be stupid -for a ____ -.
He is or he isn't.

 

[UnusualStranger]

Ah, yes, emotions, the bane of rationality...

Firstly, I believe people do make sense. You pass a person who walks slowly from the left because there's a splash of water at his right, you keep an as straight as possible posture at all times to seem more confident, taller and intimidating, you don't so you won't stand out of the crowd. And so on. You do everything you do for a reason, that reason can be logical or instinctive.

Secondly, my trick judges the behaviour of a single moment. I'm sure even Einstein had some moments of stupidity throughout his life.
You should judge at multiple moments to get a good idea of whether the person is really an idiot or didn't just forget to turn on common sense.

As for the emotions that may cloud one's mind, you need to have a little empathy.
Why did he punch him? What made him so angry? Was he robbed, or did the other person do nothing more than snicker after the angry guy stumbled over a lose tile?
When you're angry, sad or such you don't think clearly, no, but surely there must be a reason to justify putting you into such a state.
Bursting out into a throw-with-everything-nearby frenzy because your pen fell off the table is stupid, getting cranky because since the beginning of the day many other things went wrong is understandable, although still unjust to vent your frustration on people who don't have anything to do with any of your misfortunes.

When I judge, I compare others to myself, therefore my views on those things may not be as they should be. I cannot imagine how differently an emotional unstable person thinks as I cannot comprehend how they go from depression to bliss in mere seconds. I consider the behaviour, not the person, so I neglect disabilities.

A person is stupid or not. A person will never be stupid -for a ____ -.
He is or he isn't.

I find your knowledge enlightening. I do agree with your first point.

However, I don't think people have the chance to properly do this procedure. Whether it be out of embarrassment, or something else, is hard to tell. Sometimes, you only run into people once for a short while, and after that may not see them for a time, if at all. That, and sometimes people like to remain hidden. It is difficult to judge the actions of those who are quiet, and preform their actions when not being observed. However, I understand your point.

And emotional triggers are a variable that depend far too largely on circumstance to properly judge. If someone has had a terrible day, all day, how is the one doing the judgment to tell? Unless closely followed and monitored, you wouldn't know if they were someone to avoid or not worry about when they finally release their rage. It can be noted that sometimes people are stupid only when in the sight of many people. And it might not be because the person is stupid, it might be because they are unable to properly communicate their thoughts. The difficulty in judging stupid from an individual is made all the more complex when you need to factor in emotions, and past experiences that the judgee was not there to notice.

I find a person can be stupid, but at the same time brilliant.
Of course, that depends on the definition of stupid, doesn't it?

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

Individualism in personal life is a good thing. The economy and public life should, in my opinion, be viewed through a collectivist lens.

So a kinda thing where your rights work when you are in the privacy of your own home but outside your a robot?[

No. If you are a private sector citizen that is still private life. Public life is those who run things, such as politicians, who are in the public eye making decisions that effect everyone.

 

[Monocle Man]

I find your knowledge enlightening. I do agree with your first point.

However, I don't think people have the chance to properly do this procedure. Whether it be out of embarrassment, or something else, is hard to tell. Sometimes, you only run into people once for a short while, and after that may not see them for a time, if at all. That, and sometimes people like to remain hidden. It is difficult to judge the actions of those who are quiet, and preform their actions when not being observed. However, I understand your point.

And emotional triggers are a variable that depend far too largely on circumstance to properly judge. If someone has had a terrible day, all day, how is the one doing the judgment to tell? Unless closely followed and monitored, you wouldn't know if they were someone to avoid or not worry about when they finally release their rage. It can be noted that sometimes people are stupid only when in the sight of many people. And it might not be because the person is stupid, it might be because they are unable to properly communicate their thoughts. The difficulty in judging stupid from an individual is made all the more complex when you need to factor in emotions, and past experiences that the judgee was not there to notice.

I find a person can be stupid, but at the same time brilliant.
Of course, that depends on the definition of stupid, doesn't it?

You are right, it can be rather tedious to rightly judge someone in the grandest of schemes. But if you only see a person once or very rarely he isn't very present in your life, therefore you don't need an accurate description. Someone harassed you without provocation when you were at the bus-station at the other side of the country, you'll never see that person again so "Someone who harassed me" is enough of a description as long as you won't see him again.
When you find that person a month later, verbally assaulting someone else, you can get a slightly more accurate view since you now know it wasn't a one-time thing.
If you find him again but instead of doing harm he's rather nice to others it will indeed be more difficult to explain.

The procedure finds stupid people of the kind that is a burden to others intentionally or through ignorance. But in retrospective it does appear it's too complex to make a list of instructions to separate the worthy and the unworthy.
I seem to have a gift to judge others after seeing them a few minutes a couple of times, after knowing them better I'm usually right too.

 

[UnusualStranger]

You are right, it can be rather tedious to rightly judge someone in the grandest of schemes. But if you only see a person once or very rarely he isn't very present in your life, therefore you don't need an accurate description. Someone harassed you without provocation when you were at the bus-station at the other side of the country, you'll never see that person again so "Someone who harassed me" is enough of a description as long as you won't see him again.
When you find that person a month later, verbally assaulting someone else, you can get a slightly more accurate view since you now know it wasn't a one-time thing.
If you find him again but instead of doing harm he's rather nice to others it will indeed be more difficult to explain.

The procedure finds stupid people of the kind that is a burden to others intentionally or through ignorance. But in retrospective it does appear it's too complex to make a list of instructions to separate the worthy and the unworthy.
I seem to have a gift to judge others after seeing them a few minutes a couple of times, after knowing them better I'm usually right too.

Ah, but I was talking more about a situation in which you run into the person only in a certain environment. Such as a college, for example, or school. In those particular environments, you run into people in places with many other people. In those particular environments, people act differently than they usually would. This can lead to a skewed result.

However, I think we have lengthened this thread with our own little discussion by a little bit too much. (I'm trying to be polite to Asturiel, since I'm not sure what he thinks of this)

If you would like to continue, I would be more than happy to. You know where to find me if you want to. Thanks for the great discussion!

 

[RelexCryo]

And now for my weekly thread.

Individualism, is it hurting overall human progression or aiding it? With people becoming more "entitled" and educated in more ways this is leading to people feeling they are the most important thing that is. This also leads to people questioning authority figures perhaps when not necissary. Like House and many other people have said

Spoiler

Wait shit!

Spoiler

Everybody is a doctor

There we are.

Now with that technical difficulty out of the hand back to business, with people knowing more and becoming more empowered were going to see our greatest flaw as a species, alot of us are fucking dumb! Give an idiot a textbook and he can spout facts, give an ignorant person a textbook and they gain knowledge. But if you have an ignorant stupid person a textbook your boned! Also with the chance of becoming famous from anywhere people are becoming more desperate and not necessarily contributing to society.(*cough* Balloon boy *cough*)

However as a plus this means more people have an opportunity to become something great to society, as Ego said "Not everybody can become a great chef, but a great chef can come from anywhere". More people becoming empowered brings people who would be in lower situations and stuck there up to a greater place to help us as a whole. Then again that leaves the other bunch of tards clogging up the wheel of progress!

So after all that, what do you think Escapist? Is "Individualism" a determent or an aid to mankind?

Aid. Generally the politicians most willing to crush individuality (such as Hitler) are the worst human beings.

 

[ultrachicken]

Individualism isn't actually getting more common, it's just that every ignorant fuck gets a lot of attention.

In reality, most "individuals" are people who just follow trends, and only want to aspire to what's "cool."

 

[ostro-whiskey]

There is no such thing as "tards clogging up the wheel of progres". Because these "tards" contribute to society by joining the working class. Although individualism is being pronounced in western society many people lack the ability for independent thought and expression, and just follow the crowd, so the individualism turns into a self absorbed egositical mentality where people do not want to contribute to society, but hoard as much shit for themselves.

Throughout history advancement has always been made by individuals who possessed the ability to rule the mass and lead them to a new dawn. It doesnt matter what you teach the mass, advancement will never happen, it takes a unique spirit.


Everything you said has already been covered by Nietzsche.

 

[Therumancer]

Well, I think the US has come up with a decent compromise right now, better than anyone else even speaking historically. In theory it could be done better, but it has yet to occur.

Truthfully if taken to the extreme either individualism or a "community first" attitude can be frighteningly bad. The people at the bottom of any social order are always going to long for change no matter what you do however. Since any society still requires more people at the bottom than anywhere else, this is going to be an eternal problem, and with any societal revolution life stays the same for the majority of people in the final equasion.

That said, I think one of our problems right now is that people are resisting a needed change in the social order and the way society works. Through most of histroy, and in most civilizations, education has been a privlege of the elite. Meaning that there was a clear divide between who could effectively do the more intellectual jobs, and who could not. This lead to a situation where the "white collar" workers were highly paid specialists who did very little physical work, being employed for their minds and skills, while "blue collar" work was something anyone could do and due to the masses of people with no education or skills needing to work, backbreaking labour paid a comparitive pittence.

Today however everyone is educated. Nobody wants to do grueling physical labour for a pathetic wage, yet in the end those jobs need to be done. This is one of the things that people use to "justify" the hiring of illegal immigrants and such who are willing to work for those wages. However I feel such things in the end hold back the evolution of the civilized world.

It's been my opinion for a while that today with all of the need to fill cubicle farms and such, especially in nations by and large operating off of trade and administration (like the US) it's a lot of the traditional "white collar" jobs, who don't do much work, and involve skills that more and more people have (leading to heavy competition) that should be making tiny amounts of money, where the traditional "physical" jobs that require a lot of effort should in turn be being paid large amounts of money to convince educated people to do them.

People of course resist this, because the dude who does very little in his office likes being able to sit around banging at a keyboard, and maybe secretly playing video games and browsing porn, while making a fairly lavish wage. The perception also still exists that someone like a farm hand should be paid very little despite the amount of effort he might have to put out in comparison. Right now you have to pay enough money to get that dude who would be sitting in a cubicle to come out and do that kind of work (and everyone can be bought for something like this). In turn of course as part of the transition the amount of money made by his type of job should decrease. As long as we maintain the educational system and produce people of the same level that we do now, the system will work.

Given some of the wages I've heard people at farms and working construction have been able to get in some cases, I think this is already happening to an extent, but it's far too slow.

Contrary to how this sounds, I'm not advocating a Communist "Worker's Paradise". Quite to the contrary, I'm thinking very capitolistically in terms of supply and demand, and I feel one of our problems is that we try and maintain an internal economic structure that we have outdated due to our own education. One of the reasons why I am so brutally hard on illegals with some of my suggested policies is that I feel they do a lot to hold back the evolution of society. All arguements aside, if there is farmland out there, someone is going to work it. If they can't hire illegal labourers for chump change, they will pay what it takes to get those field hands. As this shift happens I also think the goverment tax structure and such will begin to change as more tax revenue is gathered from employed farm hands with higher wages than by taxing the farms themselves.

Such are my thoughts, I could go into things like "well if workers make so much money, what prevents them from deciding they don't need educations to make money, and blow off school, won't that destroy the social structure and cause it to revert?" but it would get too long, and I'm already away from the topic more than a little.

 

[Asturiel]

I find your knowledge enlightening. I do agree with your first point.

However, I don't think people have the chance to properly do this procedure. Whether it be out of embarrassment, or something else, is hard to tell. Sometimes, you only run into people once for a short while, and after that may not see them for a time, if at all. That, and sometimes people like to remain hidden. It is difficult to judge the actions of those who are quiet, and preform their actions when not being observed. However, I understand your point.

And emotional triggers are a variable that depend far too largely on circumstance to properly judge. If someone has had a terrible day, all day, how is the one doing the judgment to tell? Unless closely followed and monitored, you wouldn't know if they were someone to avoid or not worry about when they finally release their rage. It can be noted that sometimes people are stupid only when in the sight of many people. And it might not be because the person is stupid, it might be because they are unable to properly communicate their thoughts. The difficulty in judging stupid from an individual is made all the more complex when you need to factor in emotions, and past experiences that the judgee was not there to notice.

I find a person can be stupid, but at the same time brilliant.
Of course, that depends on the definition of stupid, doesn't it?

You also need to seperate what wisdomis and intelligence. My friend is a fucking genius but he does stupid things because he isnt wise when he needs to be.

I have seen him try to stab himself in the face because he thought it would be funny, good thing we took away his knife.

No. If you are a private sector citizen that is still private life. Public life is those who run things, such as politicians, who are in the public eye making decisions that effect everyone.

Interesting, so where do celebrites fall in there?

You are right, it can be rather tedious to rightly judge someone in the grandest of schemes. But if you only see a person once or very rarely he isn't very present in your life, therefore you don't need an accurate description. Someone harassed you without provocation when you were at the bus-station at the other side of the country, you'll never see that person again so "Someone who harassed me" is enough of a description as long as you won't see him again.
When you find that person a month later, verbally assaulting someone else, you can get a slightly more accurate view since you now know it wasn't a one-time thing.
If you find him again but instead of doing harm he's rather nice to others it will indeed be more difficult to explain.

The procedure finds stupid people of the kind that is a burden to others intentionally or through ignorance. But in retrospective it does appear it's too complex to make a list of instructions to separate the worthy and the unworthy.
I seem to have a gift to judge others after seeing them a few minutes a couple of times, after knowing them better I'm usually right too.

Very true, thats a good thing to have, have a decent idea of a person after knowing them for a short while. However 3 peices of data are far more useful than one

However, I think we have lengthened this thread with our own little discussion by a little bit too much. (I'm trying to be polite to Asturiel, since I'm not sure what he thinks of this)

If you would like to continue, I would be more than happy to. You know where to find me if you want to. Thanks for the great discussion!

No continue, continue, discussion of anything is good by me!

Aid. Generally the politicians most willing to crush individuality (such as Hitler) are the worst human beings.

Bad people, could do something positive for mankind.

Individualism isn't actually getting more common, it's just that every ignorant fuck gets a lot of attention.

In reality, most "individuals" are people who just follow trends, and only want to aspire to what's "cool."

So your saying, with the easier ways for people to be recorded, we are notocing this more, it's not just happening now. So your saying easy access to these things is the issue. Interesting.

*Snip*

Whos that? Im interested now.

Also good point, as long as they do their jobs they are helping right?

Well, I think the US has come up with a decent compromise right now, better than anyone else even speaking historically. In theory it could be done better, but it has yet to occur.

Truthfully if taken to the extreme either individualism or a "community first" attitude can be frighteningly bad. The people at the bottom of any social order are always going to long for change no matter what you do however. Since any society still requires more people at the bottom than anywhere else, this is going to be an eternal problem, and with any societal revolution life stays the same for the majority of people in the final equasion.

Very true, people will long for power and because of that they need people down so that the high is high and the society works.

Ill quote more of your mega post, until late, im at lunch.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

No. If you are a private sector citizen that is still private life. Public life is those who run things, such as politicians, who are in the public eye making decisions that effect everyone.

Interesting, so where do celebrites fall in there?[

Celebrities would be private citizens because they have no political power.

In addition, those in political power should be able to have and express their own opinions, but I simply believe that if politicians looked at life as a collectivist pursuit, we would have a better world. Freedom of thought must be upheld though.

 

[VanityGirl]

Depends what you mean.

Individualism is great sometimes, but when you're off doing your own thing and being a nonconformist just to look cool, then you're just being a jackoff.

I'll talking about the people who said "I liked it before it got popular". That is stupid.