Atheism Vs. Anti-Theism

[Beowulf DW]

@ Oddresin:

Personally, I've never considered science or religion to be mutually exclusive, or polar opposites (as you have stated, Oddresin). I consider religion, in its proper form, to be the study of human morals, spirituality, and will as well as reminder that there may be something more. I consider science (in its proper form) to be the study of how the universe works. I honestly can't agree with your opinion that science and religion are polar opposites; it's the "apples and oranges," situation.

Oddresin, you also stated that religion never changes. This is entirely false. The Catholic Church has acknowledged the Big Bang theory, and the theory of evolution. It has also reversed its stance on the status of other faiths, which basically means that we believe that everyone who has lived a morally sound life will eventually get into heaven. Those are some big steps forward considering how entrenched the Vatican has been throughout most of its history. And the Catholic Church is continually studying canon and religious scripture to examine and re-examine Catholic dogma in the context of the modern world. By assuming that every single religous belief is false, you are displaying a decidedly provincial attitude.


You claimed that you knew the truth beyond the shadow of a doubt, Oddresin. What truth is this? You didn't elaborate. The only absolute truth I know of is that we will never know everything that there is to know. Because of that, I always try to keep an open mind about everything. Maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't, maybe I'll actually care when some one can prove it one way or another. Maybe the universe has limits and maybe it doesn't, maybe I'll care when some one can prove it one way or another.

P.S. Oddresin, what you posted about science seems to carry the same undertone as an evangelist talking about the Bible. You extolled the virtues of science over religion the same way a Baptist might extoll Christianity over Islam. I find that rather disturbing.

 

[vampyricvoid]

Wow, this thread grew over just a few hours.
Look guys, first read my first post (towards the bottom of the first page).
Next, I have found so far that almost everything can be proven by science. This is a common atheist view (correct me if I'm wrong). However, this is where the agnosticism in me comes into play. Almost anything can be proven. The 2 things that I cannot find proven are creation and soul-binding. Creation is the arguement that happens every time that a Christian runs into an atheist. The Christian will tend to continuously ask "yea, but where did those gases that caused the Big Bang come from" or something like that. I believe there is one or more higher forces acting to create that. The next point is soul-binding. What makes animals (mainly humans) so special? What allows them to think. The brain is a physical piece of matter. When we die, it's still there, but our body lies dead and our minds disappear or ascend. The mind/soul is put into our bodies, which seperates ourselves from a rock, which cannot think or live. Those are the 2 things I find that cannot be proven by science and that's what makes me agnostic.

 

[Dudemeister]

you spelled christian wrong

 

[Hawgh]

I can't be moved to defend a religion like Christianity & Islam when they claim that they have there rules directly from an all-knowing & all-loving deity, and then change the rules every once in a while.

Either admit that you don't have jack contact with any Gods, or that you're obviously as flawed as everyone else and does not possess the higher level of existence necessary to communicate the desires of a perfect being.

EDIT: not speaking at anyone in particular here, just prefer to write to singular targets.

 

[BardSeed]

I would like to add my thoughts, that probably won't be read, to this. I haven't read every post so I may be covering old ground.

First of all, anti-theists are atheists. I would regard anti-theism as a sub-class of atheism.
I think that the original poster has made the mistake of categorising all followers of Christianity based on the few that he has met. I believe the quarrel you have is with intolerance. You have shown that you are not fond of anti-theists, these people are just as intoelrant as the evangelicals. Both sides believe they are right and rather than respecting that they will nto conver the other, they argue for their belief.
I consider myself an atheist but I'm also the kind of person who covers my arse, I like to be thorough. The possibility of "God" is always there but I would think of it as a force, not unlike nature, rather than a being. I continue to call myself atheist but I can't be 100% certain that there is no "higher power".
As you may have gathered, I am opposed to organised religions, I believe that people should decide for themselves what "God" is and have their own ideas on what right and wrong are. Pat Condell(religious comedian, anti-theist) put it best when he said "if you have a head full of scripture, you have a head full of ideas that have stopped growing".
Believing what I'm told because otherwsie I'll burn forever, allegedly, doesn't cut it for me. We have free will but what use is it if we aren't to use it, or only to use it within the confines of a book's teachings? A God that would give you free will but forbid you to use it is a cruel one indeed.

That turned into a rant fast, I had more to say but I was writing without a plan. I forgot half of it during the writing.

PS. I don't know how on Earth a teacher such as your could have gotten a job. What she did was highly uneducated, it's appalling.

PPS. Feel free to correct my spelling; I'm was using internet explorer at the time of post, damn it's lack of spell-checker!

you spelled christian wrong

You forgot to use a capital for the first word of a sentence and didn't end it with a full stop. I'm pretty sure Christian should have a capitalised "C" too.

 

[Nightfalke]

Either admit that you don't have jack contact with any Gods, or that you're obviously as flawed as everyone else and does not possess the higher level of existence necessary to communicate the desires of a perfect being.

It's ok guys. I'll take this one.

I'm pretty sure that a major tenet of most of the religions out there is that we are imperfect beings. So, yeah, everyone is flawed, and we probably got a few things wrong.

Edit: Me fail English? That unpossible!

 

[WlknCntrdiction]

I'm not too fussed tbh. I'm an atheist but I won't argue with people about religion. I get the same reaction when I tell people I'm an atheist. On the times people have tried to convert my answer is always the same, jehovahs witness, slam door in face, random Christian preaching on the street, just walk on by, I just generally ignore them. On the times I've actually had to contend with someone who won't piss off I will stand there with my headphones in pretending to listen or just daydream about whats for dinner that night. I don't force my belief on anyone else, I would like it if people wouldn't force theirs on me, or try to. On the rare occasions where I've unfortunately steered the conversation into religious territory and it's been with my friends they have actually talked and I've felt compelled to listen because they don't force their belief on me, plus they actually come up with some good arguments that make me think.

I'll continue to believe what I do, I'll also continue to not preach to people nor talk down to them about their beliefs, at least if they don't do the same to me. Treat others with respect and they shall respect you back.

 

[Kikosemmek]

I don't believe the destinction between atheist and anti-theist actually exists. Whether or not a person is tolerable or not is not inherent to atheism or anti-theism as objective purviews. They both preach that no supernatural power exists.

Instead of complicating things further with newer labels, how about we refer to those we perceive to be intolerant as intolerant, rather than grouping them into anti-theism?

 

[Dudemeister]

I would like to add my thoughts, that probably won't be read, to this. I haven't read every post so I may be covering old ground.

First of all, anti-theists are atheists. I would regard anti-theism as a sub-class of atheism.
I think that the original poster has made the mistake of categorising all followers of Christianity based on the few that he has met. I believe the quarrel you have is with intolerance. You have shown that you are not fond of anti-theists, these people are just as intoelrant as the evangelicals. Both sides believe they are right and rather than respecting that they will nto conver the other, they argue for their belief.
I consider myself an atheist but I'm also the kind of person who covers my arse, I like to be thorough. The possibility of "God" is always there but I would think of it as a force, not unlike nature, rather than a being. I continue to call myself atheist but I can't be 100% certain that there is no "higher power".
As you may have gathered, I am opposed to organised religions, I believe that people should decide for themselves what "God" is and have their own ideas on what right and wrong are. Pat Condell(religious comedian, anti-theist) put it best when he said "if you have a head full of scripture, you have a head full of ideas that have stopped growing".
Believing what I'm told because otherwsie I'll burn forever, allegedly, doesn't cut it for me. We have free will but what use is it if we aren't to use it, or only to use it within the confines of a book's teachings? A God that would give you free will but forbid you to use it is a cruel one indeed.

That turned into a rant fast, I had more to say but I was writing without a plan. I forgot half of it during the writing.

PS. I don't know how on Earth a teacher such as your could have gotten a job. What she did was highly uneducated, it's appalling.

PPS. Feel free to correct my spelling; I'm was using internet explorer at the time of post, damn it's lack of spell-checker!

you spelled christian wrong

You forgot to use a capital for the first word of a sentence and didn't end it with a full stop. I'm pretty sure Christian should have a capitalised "C" too.

Ah, well that's me told.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

If I told you that a invisible, tuxedo-wearing rhinoceros in a invisible pink mini cooper was heading right for you, would you jump out of way? I mean, that would be the logical thing to do if you knew it was there. However, we can't prove it's existence, and I'm fairly certain you wouldn't jump out of the way.

Heres a question for you, if you told someone that and they dont jump out the way and then seconds later they get knocked down to the ground and there is evidence for them having been hit by a mini would you start to consider the possiblity of an invisible, tuxedo-wearing rhinoceros in an invisible pink mini copper?

I wouldn't go as far as saying that it was a tuxedo-wearing rhinoceros in an invisible pink mini cooper. However, I would say that it's likely that there is an invisible, multi-tired vehicle, which kind of explains my post, I think.
It might seem that I ridicule religion by saying tuxedo etc. etc, however, I didn't do that to ridicule it. I gave a quite specific image of the vehicle and the driver. However, let's look at the (wo)man that has been hit by the car. Do we see any evidence of the driver being a tuxedo-wearing rhinoceros? Can we tell by the way he has been hit by a pink mini cooper, or even a car at all (okay, the mini cooper part might be provable, but pink isn't)? No, all we know is that he has been hit by a vehicle that's sturdy and heavy enough to be able to drive over a person, and that it has multiple wheels.

Which also explains why I don't get it when people say they've been healed by (their) god. Even in the case that it is true they have been healed by a metaphysical being, how do they know it was him? For all they know, Gaya was trying to be nice to him, or maybe it was Ek Onkar, Allah, Bahá'ís or Abraxas, if it was a god at all. All you know is that you have been healed by something. People just fill in the blanks for themselves.

 

[Mathew952]

Honestly, I really don't care about what people think happens to them when they die. They can believe what they want to believe, and no amount of arguing in a star bucks will change that. Don't force your beliefs on some one. They've chosen their religion, so leave them be.
Anti-theism, is the epitome of stupidity and closed mindedness. Anti-Theism is the belief that their is a god, who will be nice and give you eternal joy if you are a good person, and if you dare turn on him, by say, worshiping Satan, he will put you through an eternity of the most pain you can imagine. And then deciding that if your nice to Satan, hell will be a little less sucky, so you pray to him and cut yourself.

 

[Uncompetative]

I don't believe in Santa Claus.

Even when you see the posts that came before it that seems a little out of place.

Is this a deliberate attempt to lighten the mood of the thread?

Or an attempt to equate religion with the fat man?

I used to believe in God. I used to believe in Jesus. I considered myself a Christian.

Then I found out the truth about Santa.

This made me question my cultural indoctrination.

By the age of seven I had worked out whether God existed and the Meaning of Life.

The only theological/existential difficulty that remained was everybody else, but over time I realized that the secret to coping with living in a culture that had faith(s) when I had none, which had meaning(s) when I had none and which had morality(s) when I had none, was to apply a three-step strategy to all interpersonal relationships:

Good Manners - this replaces Morality

Tolerance - accept that others hold different ephemeral goals and that I am in the minority in striving to live in Reality

Avoidance - reject the imposition of some eternal meaning by organized religious groups, without drawing attention to myself

 

[Cheesus333]

I'm agnostic; I avoid arguments and noone shouts at me for anything...

 

[black lincon]

i belong to a little sect of Christianity called Methodism. for the uninitiated its the religion that both bush and Hillary Clinton are in. we are also responsible for prohibition and therefore, gang violence. we are considered one of the more liberal churches however due to a major conservative portion of us we are still supposed to be anti gay marriage and all that jazz.

However i live in Illinois in a suburb of Chicago so there aren't a lot of conservatives to pander to so while i believe in god i have many more beliefs founded in science that other Christians. i have many friends of many different faiths and was taught to respect all other faiths. i had never come into any serious contact with any atheist before and then came a man named Rob Sherman. look him up hes a dick.

A little while ago Illinois legislature passed a law that made it mandatory for there to be a 15sec "moment of reflection" well seeing as how rob had a daughter in the schools he wasn't going to stand for it, in reality i understand why but he did it in a real dickish way. instead of suing one thing(the state) he sued everyone who was slightly involved the Governor of the state who vetoed the bill, the legislate, the superintendent of the school district, the principal of the school, and my math teacher Mr. Win just because he was the teacher of the class the moment was in. I've kinda felt a little hatred towards atheists since then i mean where do you get off suing Mr. Win, i mean i know him and those like him are just a small percentage of the whole but in reality he was kind of trying to take some of my beliefs to court.

 

[Hawgh]

Either admit that you don't have jack contact with any Gods, or that you're obviously as flawed as everyone else and does not possess the higher level of existence necessary to communicate the desires of a perfect being.

It's ok guys. I'll take this one.

I'm pretty sure that a major tenet of most of the religions out there is that we are imperfect beings. So, yeah, everyone is flawed, and we probably got a few things wrong.

Edit: Me fail English? That unpossible!

Yet the clergy is allowed to dictate how God(whatever you call him) wants people to do, I am perfectly aware that not all variations of the monotheistic religions are borderline fascist in this regard. Hell, protestantism hardly features more than a loose guideline.

What I'm getting at is; if everyone is flawed, what gives these specific people the unique ability and right to tell everyone else how to achieve perfection?
Nothing, nothing more than the fact that they claim that the God who created all peoples equal would give them, and them alone, the right answer.

This is necessarily either a question of whether other people then choose to use their free will(remember, the one thing in which humans are supposed to be different to all else in creation, including the hosts of heaven & hell) and adhere to these guidelines or laws, or they don't, there is no wrong answer, it is the act of making a choice that matters.

Trusting a blind man to lead a score of blind men cannot possibly be considered a meaningful way to search for enlightenment.


Lastly, who're the guys? can I meet them? are they cool? boy, I shure does hope so. Nothing would be as cool as mingling with the guys.

 

[Cheesus333]

If (and correct me if I'm wrong) Wrath is a sin, why does God always seem so angry? I doubt he was pleased with his little creations when he flooded the entire Earth and killed all the first-born Egyptians. I'm not having a go, it's just a little thing that caught my interest.

 

[mtk2a]

Arguing existentialism on a message board is pointless.

Everyone is so certain of their infallibility, neither side is ever moved by the others argument.

Here's what I think: The religious and the atheist are both wrong, neither side knows shit from shit, and they're both full of jerks.

Humanity is annoying.

 

[JD4566]

because i think that people that believe in a God have made a stupid choice.... it's that simple.

I just dont see how you could not have made a stupid choice such as believe of god with the mountain of evidence against it, and the complete lack of evidence for it.

No one has provided a good argument for God based on LOGIC and FACTS.

That simple, if you believe in god, you are somewhat stupid.... regardless of intelligence.

Einstein was a dumbass too : )

theres no evidence for or against God
to the OP i respect ur beliefs and im a Catholic
to answer ur question as to why people seem so intolerant to you is because they're intolerant to everyone. Everyone is hated by someone. Every belief is stongly criticized at first. People with faith hate you. Christians were eaten by lions in Roman times.
It's the unfortunate way of the world.