Atheist Bible

[Ignignoct]

I would say that Christians are atheist mostly.

Sure, they belive in one god. but if you consider all the gods they dont belive in I really don't think one more or less is that big of a deal.

This.

I've met a few Christians that don't actually depend on or expect God to do anything at all, ever. Just a childhood habit, as far as I can see the total effect on their lives.

It's all just culture, and when it's like that, it's just an inert little homage to one's upbringing.

 

[caross73]

Hold on, let me google that for you, while you come up with more attacks on secular naturalism.

Whose attacking it? I never said it was this big evil thing. I'm merely pointing out the lack of evidence for the existence for morality in said worldview. That's not an attack, just an observation.

You said, paraphrased "if Secular Naturalism is so great, why are there so many criminals?"

Apparently they are more moral, if you are regarding morality as committing fewer crimes.

I was pointing out how crime is still as big a problem as ever in rebuttal to Ignignoct saying that society, as a whole, is moral (At least, that's what I got from him). Which is silly, considering the prisons systems are overflowing.

Ok, I agree. Society is immoral. This cannot be laid at the feet of secularists. This is religions failure as well.

While one could say that even with the state of the prison system , the majority aren't committing crimes, I would say that there are thousands of crimes that go unsolved every year (This isn't CSI, people do get away with things), and that combined with the prison system shows that while there certainly are 'normal' people who don't commit crimes daily, or ever, the amount of people who do commit crimes isn't a number to be easily ignored.

And like I said, people confuse being a certain religion with being raised that way. I'm not convinced by the survey.

In the absence of an authority to say who belongs to a given religion or not, such as baptismal records, you really can't tell. But you don't have to. Its generally acknowledged to be true that being religious has almost no influence on criminal behavior, and atheists generally come from socioeconomic backgrounds that don't predispose ones toward a tendency towards criminal acts.

I would never say atheists HAVE TO BE moral. But I would never say religion can make one moral, either. I would just say there ARE fewer atheists in prisons, as long as we are keeping score.

 

[Baby Tea]

I've met a few Christians that don't actually depend on or expect God to do anything at all, ever. Just a childhood habit, as far as I can see the total effect on their lives.

It's all just culture, and when it's like that, it's just an inert little homage to one's upbringing.

And this totally proves my point on why that survey is a moot point.
If people don't believe in God, or the Bible, but were raised Christian, then they are not Christian. Christian is a believe in God, and Jesus Christ as the messiah. It isn't simply a culture. If you don't believe in God or Jesus, you aren't a Christian! But people say they are anyways, because they think they might still be because they got baptized when they were 6 months old.

False assumption.

 

[Ignignoct]

Hold on, let me google that for you, while you come up with more attacks on secular naturalism.

Whose attacking it? I never said it was this big evil thing. I'm merely pointing out the lack of evidence for the existence for morality in said worldview. That's not an attack, just an observation.

You said, paraphrased "if Secular Naturalism is so great, why are there so many criminals?"

Apparently they are more moral, if you are regarding morality as committing fewer crimes.

Oh now I get it, you just misunderstood me.
That paraphrase would be correct if I was using it in an example where everyone was a naturalist.
But I wasn't.
I was pointing out how crime is still as big a problem as ever in rebuttal to Ignignoct saying that society, as a whole, is moral (At least, that's what I got from him). Which is silly, considering the prisons systems are overflowing.
While one could say that even with the state of the prison system , the majority aren't committing crimes, I would say that there are thousands of crimes that go unsolved every year (This isn't CSI, people do get away with things), and that combined with the prison system shows that while there certainly are 'normal' people who don't commit crimes daily, or ever, the amount of people who do commit crimes isn't a number to be easily ignored.

And like I said, people confuse being a certain religion with being raised that way. I'm not convinced by the survey.

LMAO... WHAAAAAT?!!? I was just mentioning that there's plenty of modern godless heathens that don't act a fool without God's interference, making religion in their lives unnecessary!

Hell, I'm terribly aware of my fellow man's follies, but if I meet an intellectual agnostic/atheist that backs up his beliefs despite Pascal's Wager being thrown at him, I'm going to assume he also adheres to a code of conduct equal or greater than the common individual, who shall know be referenced to as a "cow".

I'm insulted that you stump yourself on one part of the counter-argument and leave me cold and alone in responding to the substance =/...

*cries*

Are you doing it on purpose?

Am I not attractive enough for you? Thin enough?

Why can't you love us atheists for who we are on the INSIDE?!?!

 

[Ignignoct]

I've met a few Christians that don't actually depend on or expect God to do anything at all, ever. Just a childhood habit, as far as I can see the total effect on their lives.

It's all just culture, and when it's like that, it's just an inert little homage to one's upbringing.

And this totally proves my point on why that survey is a moot point.
If people don't believe in God, or the Bible, but were raised Christian, then they are not Christian. Christian is a believe in God, and Jesus Christ as the messiah. It isn't simply a culture. If you don't believe in God or Jesus, you aren't a Christian! But people say they are anyways, because they think they might still be because they got baptized when they were 6 months old.

False assumption.

Yes, that was a tangent I was discussing with the guy who was talking about it first.

GO RESPOND TO MY POST TO YOU, DAMN IT!

edit: I'm sorry, that's the caffeine talking.

I've got a laundry-list of errands to run and I'm stuck arguing religion on the internet.

*sigh*

Pray for me to break the addiction to message boards.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

I would say that Christians are atheist mostly.

Sure, they belive in one god. but if you consider all the gods they dont belive in I really don't think one more or less is that big of a deal.

Erm...

Surely believing god, any god, automatically kind of disqualifies you from being an atheist?

That is a bit like saying "He isn't really an alcoholic. He doesn't drink all kinds of beer, just loads and loads of vodka".

No, we are not. We have been discussing peoples right to believe whatever they want without scorn, prejudice, belittlement, or abuse. That is how you are missing the point.

My views on secularity are thus:-

There are a LOT of things connected with religion that need to be addressed. God shouldn't be in the law, or in the government, or in the classroom (not taught as fact anyway).

BUAHAHAH!

Well then, we've been in agreement the entire time. Why are you so angry!?!?!

Do you want to spoon for a bit and watch some X-Files? Hmmm?... Maybe get some Reese's PB Cups?

Not angry really. I am just trying to bring some tolerance into play here, (not so much from you but from others). If a religious person tells you that you are going to hell for not believing or that gays are the blight of humanity or other shit then fire at will. If they are minding their own business then those people who are not religious should not attempt to antagonize them. Doing so is extreme hypocrisy.

Remember that there are a huge number of secular religious people [http://www.rcrc.org/programs/clergy_resources.cfm], as well as people like this [http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html]. It isn't a case of "us vs them", it is a case of extremists vs people who agree to work together and try to lead their own lives without trying to push their own opinions onto other people. And all creeds (including atheism) has extremists in its ranks.

By the way I am partial to chipsticks or cornflakes.

 

[Baby Tea]

CT, I usually stood by you in a lot of things...

By the way I am partial to chipsticks or cornflakes.

But THAT over Reese's Peanut butter cups is just unforgivable.
You cad.

 

[Baby Tea]

LMAO... WHAAAAAT?!!? I was just mentioning that there's plenty of modern godless heathens that don't act a fool without God's interference, making religion in their lives unnecessary!

Well the, in that case, I'd say that morality isn't the reason that people turn to a faith. Or, at least, it shouldn't be. Not because a faith can't be a source of morality, but because it isn't shopping for a worldview that suits what you want or like.
It's a recognition of a truth. I couldn't not be a Christian if I tried, and there are others of different faiths who would say the same for themselves.

I'm on the same page as cuddly tomato in that I'm looking for just some respect and understanding for people with different faiths. I don't mind what faith you are, we don't have to agree to get along and live together.

 

[salbarragan]

The highest level of morality is attained by determining them for yourself, not having some omnipresent parent figure wagging their finger at you from a distance saying that if you don't do what they tell you, they will punish you forever. Keeping that in mind, I am okay with some people needing religion to let them lead their day to day life. If the only thing keeping someone from going on a killing rampage is the belief that some "God" will punish him, than by all means, let that man believe in some ultimate power. Religion truly is the opiate of the masses. It is a crutch for people who are too afraid to open up and see what the world is really like. A crutch. Let's think about that word for a minute. The word crutch conjures up images of someone who is lame. Someone who under their own power, can not function as regular person. They need something extra to help them get through the day. Otherwise, they would be in bed or hobbling along. If you feel that your God is the only thing to keep you going in this horrible world, than your God is in fact a crutch. And lets face it, an omnipotent power probably has better things to do than to carry every lame person in this world.

Being an Atheist means that I understand that at the end of my life their will be nothing. I don't even get the benefit of a game over screen. Their will be no judge but myself on how well my life was. I want to die saying that I lived every day, loved everyday, fought everyday for what I cared about. I am not waiting for someone to reward me later because my reward IS my life. I will die not waiting to live in another world but being happy that I had the opportunity to live in this one. That is what living life in the moment is about. To be honest, if I was an omnipotent being who truly cared about His creations, that is how I would want them all to live.

 

[Ignignoct]

LMAO... WHAAAAAT?!!? I was just mentioning that there's plenty of modern godless heathens that don't act a fool without God's interference, making religion in their lives unnecessary!

Well the, in that case, I'd say that morality isn't the reason that people turn to a faith. Or, at least, it shouldn't be. Not because a faith can't be a source of morality, but because it isn't shopping for a worldview that suits what you want or like.
It's a recognition of a truth. I couldn't not be a Christian if I tried, and there are others of different faiths who would say the same for themselves.

I'm on the same page as cuddly tomato in that I'm looking for just some respect and understanding for people with different faiths. I don't mind what faith you are, we don't have to agree to get along and live together.

We're very similar, you and I.

Knowing what I know, seeing what I've seen, I couldn't believe in Christianity without some divine inspiration (or an answered prayer).

I know what it's like to not be able to believe the other side, but I'm more interested in your character and actions. Not really, since this is the internet, but if we were hanging out at the same workplace/college I would, y'know?

So to sum it up:

Beef's been squashed, everyone go back to your homes. Nothing to see here. Atheists will acknowledge the goodness of Christians who are kind and understanding, and vice-versa.

 

[Codeknight]

Personally I like how vague the bible is: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Wow great use of description, no?

Some of the laws provided by the bible are kinda funny too:
-If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
-For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it mustbe put to death.
-Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

and of course the funny contradictions:
Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, 'It is because I saw God face to face, and my life was preserved.'
Exodus 33:11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God.

In case you cant tell I am very atheist; however I mean no offense, which seems to be taken often, to those who are religious. I accept that others want or need to believe that that they are being watched over and have somewhere to go after death.

 

[Baby Tea]

Beef's been squashed, everyone go back to your homes. Nothing to see here. Atheists will acknowledge the goodness of Christians who are kind and understanding, and vice-versa.

Good to know that there are people who can say that and mean it!
Cheers!

P.S. I want some of the Peanut Butter Cups...they are my favourite.

 

[Ignignoct]

Beef's been squashed, everyone go back to your homes. Nothing to see here. Atheists will acknowledge the goodness of Christians who are kind and understanding, and vice-versa.

Good to know that there are people who can say that and mean it!
Cheers!

P.S. I want some of the Peanut Butter Cups...they are my favourite.

BRB Wal-Mart!

Expect delivery in 3-6 weeks.

 

[traceur_]

You think we have no morals because we don't believe your morals, morals that were set forth by an omnipotent puppet master. We do not believe in any singular set of morals for we are without a common creed, each of us chooses our own morals. You think you are the only one wise enough to grasp what right and wrong are? "believe in some invisible moral force that everyone supposedly should adhere to. No such thing as right and wrong in that world view" what world view exactly are you referring to? As i have said each of us chooses our own morals so how can you say we don't know what right and wrong are, I don't think that each of us has given you a list of what we think is right and wrong so how can you pass judgment on our morals when you do not know what they are? You truly are a fool if you would pass judgment on me without ever having known me.

Easy tiger! I never said atheists can't have morality or morals, I'm only saying there is no basis for it. You certainly can judge for yourself what right or wrong is, but to assume that there is a universal moral framework in an amoral universe is silly.

And in a naturalist worldview, where there is no god or anything 'supernatural' (That means spiritualism is out), there is no such thing as right or wrong. It's completely subjective. You could say 'stealing is wrong' and someone else could say 'stealing is ok'. Who is wrong? Who is right? You yourself said that we judge for ourselves what right and wrong is, so what happens when opposing judgments of morality collide?

And, finally, I never passed judgment on you. I never said you, or anyone else, was immoral or evil or anything of the sort. I simply said there is no basis for morality in a naturalist worldview, and no such thing as a universal moral framework in said worldview.

i apologize for the level of aggression in the post to which you are referring, what I don't understand is this:

"You certainly can judge for yourself what right or wrong is, but to assume that there is a universal moral framework in an amoral universe is silly."

We do no not believe there is a universal moral framework, we each construct our own framework, though the materials used in that construction are in part supplied by our education, upbringing and experience, the method of construction is up to us.

When you say we have no basis for our morals, what exactly do you mean? The basis for my own utilitarian views is my desire to be practical in all my endeavors.

 

[mike1921]

NO ATHEIST BIBLE! atheism shouldn't be organized by anything except a lack of a believe in a higher being.

maybe it could be the words "no higher power exists" repeated for the course of the bible.

If I were to write it, it'd be that and "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."-benjamin franklin. Just because I love that quote so much.

 

[anNIALLator]

Read anything by Darwin. How dare he be all logical and practical.. the douche.

Random fact: Darwin was Catholic, and trained for priesthood before traveling to the Galapagos islands. still practiced after he wrote his theory too

I don't think that's true. Maybe he attended church with his family as Emma was religious but I don't think he was.

 

[Ignignoct]

Read anything by Darwin. How dare he be all logical and practical.. the douche.

Random fact: Darwin was Catholic, and trained for priesthood before traveling to the Galapagos islands. still practiced after he wrote his theory too

I don't think that's true. Maybe he attended church with his family as Emma was religious but I don't think he was.

His wife was, he wasn't.

He specifically tailored his book to be nice and try to dance around the God idea so it wouldn't offend her too much.

 

[sokka14]

It's still called Atheism. Atheists do believe a higher power is POSSIBLE, but in the same respect they believe dragons are possible, as they can't be proved or disproved. Atheists merely choose not to live their lives based on the teaching of dragons.

Calling yourself an agnostic wouldn't be wrong either.

Mkay thanks! I am glad I know what I am, but honestly I am fine with anyone believing what they want to believe. If someone says we are all part of some alien experiment, or something as not probable as Scientology, I am fine with it. I think anyone can believe in whatever they want, so long as they don't try to force it upon others.

that's just called being tolerant. it has no bearing on your actual beliefs

 

[Hoxton]

personaly I consider myself an atheist. i don't believe in a higher power, and frankly i don't care. Look around you, even if there were a god he is definedly not with us any more. And yeah religion IS undoubtedly a way to lead the masses.
It's a great hypocricy telling everyone that you believe in something (eg christian god) and do shit all your life and when you're old go to church everyday and play the good old fart.
that's pure bullshit. Buhdism on the other hand does not have gods, the names of 'gods' are only to specify a state of mind. And it's very interesting how everyone remembers god only when they need someone to curse or beg (for any reason)

If you think that something is wrong with the world and you need a reason, Just look in the mirror.
(sorry for the spelling)