Atheists and Theists are both right

[Captain Blackout]

*snip*

I've been thinking about a response for days. I can't come up with that actually addresses your points and is brief enough to not completely swamp the page. So a few points should suffice:

1. I'm not some "new age" universalist. I've tried to explain and I'd try to continue to explain what I am, but you've proven you either A) Don't care or B) Can't bloody well understand where I'm coming from well enough to get it.

2. You don't know a thing about my education. Calling it into question is downright silly.

3. You talk about how you're a "good" Christian, but you keep coming across like an old school evangelical. Case in point:

My point is: Annoying, and even sometimes disrespectful? Yes. Unique to Christianity? No.

Yeah, I totally had to kick a dozen Buddhists, 3 Taoists, a Confucian, a Hindu, and a Zoroastrian off my porch yesterday.

Yeesh.

Ha! Obvious troll is obvious.
Carry on, forum jester, carry on.

Caross is a complete troll, and yet, this is his best comment ever. From three different threads. He makes an excellent point and you blow him off. Christianity has a LOT to answer for...well at least the followers do. I guess the real question here is:
Do you care how you come across to others AS a Christian?

4. Having said all this you've proven one thing to me beyond a shadow of a doubt. I need to put up or shut up. This has been a long time coming but you should give yourself a hand as you are the straw that broke the camel's back.
I'm starting my own church. What was it you said earlier, we don't need anymore denominations? Just to make you extra special, you'll be the Satan in my teachings. Enjoy.
And before you say to yourself "He'll never get anywhere," you should know I have the complete backing of two priestesses, one of whom runs her own full-fledged congregation. I'll probably never make it further than a single congregation but I will at least have the one. God help us all if I get anymore successful that that.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

My point is: Annoying, and even sometimes disrespectful? Yes. Unique to Christianity? No.

Yeah, I totally had to kick a dozen Buddhists, 3 Taoists, a Confucian, a Hindu, and a Zoroastrian off my porch yesterday.

Yeesh.

(Forget that Buddhism basically says if it doesn't work for you, don't believe it... if only Abrahamic religions could be so mature. Any religion that preaches if you don't believe you are irredeemably going to hell for all eternity is unworthy of respect at this point -- any such god would be a despot and ipso facto, not a god in the first place)

Ha! Obvious troll is obvious.
That, and your ignorance of Buddhism amuses me.
Carry on, forum jester, carry on.

You aren't going to get anywhere with that guy Baby_Tea. Do what Cpt. Blackout and myself have done and cease responding too him.

You know Fred Phelps rants against homosexuals? You know his antics in the media? You know how he manages to offend so many people and cause all of his shit? Because people listen. They listen and then rebuff or condemn him but they listen non-the-less. Media stations carry his crap, only to then call it crap, but they still show it.

Hate can't be reasoned with, there isn't anything you can do to help the hateful if they are unwilling to let go of that hate. Just move on.

My point is: Annoying, and even sometimes disrespectful? Yes. Unique to Christianity? No.

Yeah, I totally had to kick a dozen Buddhists, 3 Taoists, a Confucian, a Hindu, and a Zoroastrian off my porch yesterday.

Yeesh.

Ha! Obvious troll is obvious.
Carry on, forum jester, carry on.

Caross is a complete troll, and yet, this is his best comment ever. From three different threads. He makes an excellent point and you blow him off. Christianity has a LOT to answer for...well at least the followers do. I guess the real question here is:

I think the point of the little exchange there was the whole thing with people trying to force religions on others. Christianity and Islam have both done that (and some still try). But right now at this moment in the world atheism is the religious position which is most zealous in its attempts to convert other people.

 

[Captain Blackout]

I think the point of the little exchange there was the whole thing with people trying to force religions on others. Christianity and Islam have both done that (and some still try). But right now at this moment in the world atheism is the religious position which is most zealous in its attempts to convert other people.

I know. I was using Caross' best comment ever to make a salient point of my own.

 

[Baby Tea]

I've been thinking about a response for days. I can't come up with that actually addresses your points and is brief enough to not completely swamp the page. So a few points should suffice:

1. I'm not some "new age" universalist. I've tried to explain and I'd try to continue to explain what I am, but you've proven you either A) Don't care or B) Can't bloody well understand where I'm coming from well enough to get it.

You aren't? Well that's why I used the qualifier 'seems'. I said it 'seems' like you are. I'm more than willing and ready to understand your position, but only from what you've saidcan I come to a conclusion about what your position is. If I've got it wrong, I'm all ears to hear where you stand.

2. You don't know a thing about my education. Calling it into question is downright silly.

I never brought your education into this! You did! You claimed to have extensive religious education. I was merely pointing out that Christianity isn't about a mash-up of what you've learned through or from other faiths either existentially or scholastically. I only mentioned 'scholastic' experiences because you first mentioned your 'extensive education'.

3. You talk about how you're a "good" Christian, but you keep coming across like an old school evangelical. Case in point:

My point is: Annoying, and even sometimes disrespectful? Yes. Unique to Christianity? No.

Yeah, I totally had to kick a dozen Buddhists, 3 Taoists, a Confucian, a Hindu, and a Zoroastrian off my porch yesterday.

Yeesh.

Ha! Obvious troll is obvious.
Carry on, forum jester, carry on.

Caross is a complete troll, and yet, this is his best comment ever. From three different threads. He makes an excellent point and you blow him off.

First off, I don't remember ever me saying 'I'm a good Christian'. I certainly said that I am a Christian, but I'm not flawless, and would be the first to say it (My wife, probably, would be second). I also fail to see how I come across like an 'old school evangelist'. Ask Cuddly Tomato: I don't have any guff with people believing what they want. Go ahead! My problem arises when people misrepresent my faith: Christianity. If people are off spouting crap about Christianity that isn't true, or are quoting the Bible out of context, or are doing terrible thing in the 'name of Christianity', then my back gets up.

And I blew off Caross because there is no reasoning with him. Even if I took the time (Read: wasted the time) to make a well written response, it would be pointless. Caross isn't changing his mind over anything, so I'm not going to waste my time. If it was his first post in the conversation, and I didn't know he was a troll, then I would jump all over it. But I do know, and I'm not going to waste the time or energy.

I guess the real question here is: Do you care how you come across to others AS a Christian?

Of course I do!
But I'm not going to change or alter the very foundation of my faith because it's fashionable or 'unpopular', just like I'm sure you wouldn't. It's called having convictions and passion for what you believe in. I'm not here to condemn anyone for their faith, and I won't. Christ said 'love your neighbour' and thats exactly what I try do every day. I'm trying to rally Churches in my area to be unified in helping the community for the sake of helping the community, not to fill the pews on Sunday. I try to show people on these forums that not every Christian wants the death of homosexuals, or is some creationist nut, or hates all other religions.

And my standing against those who misrepresent Christianity from the non-Christian side, also means my standing against those who misrepresent Christianity from the 'Christian' side.

4. Having said all this you've proven one thing to me beyond a shadow of a doubt. I need to put up or shut up. This has been a long time coming but you should give yourself a hand as you are the straw that broke the camel's back.
I'm starting my own church. What was it you said earlier, we don't need anymore denominations? Just to make you extra special, you'll be the Satan in my teachings. Enjoy.
And before you say to yourself "He'll never get anywhere," you should know I have the complete backing of two priestesses, one of whom runs her own full-fledged congregation. I'll probably never make it further than a single congregation but I will at least have the one. God help us all if I get anymore successful that that.

Well good luck with that. You've certainly shown me who the bigger man is.
I look forward to scaring your children in Sunday school and evening prayers.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

3. You talk about how you're a "good" Christian, but you keep coming across like an old school evangelical.

I disagree, Baby_Tea is merely defending Christianity where it is being attacked. He has not claimed to be a good Christian and has not even claimed that Christianity is "right". He has simply defended his right to be a Christian without facing the scorn and belittlement of others. The individual he blew off earned that, the only thing that puzzled me was that Baby_Tea didn't blow him off 3 pages ago. The way he is doing it is to try to clarify what he believes to be his personal code of Christianity and try to explain he has perfectly valid reasons for it.

Cpt. Blackout. I want you to read this [http://www.steve-olson.com/10-things-i-learned-from-my-4-year-old/]. Look at question 4. Then look at what happened in the comments section.

There is something very wrong with the atheist movement right now. Religious people are starting to recognize and defend themselves from it, because it is a real and growing threat to their freedom to practice religion.

 

[caross73]

There is something very wrong with the atheist movement right now. Religious people are starting to recognize and defend themselves from it, because it is a real and growing threat to their freedom to practice religion.

Ahem, bologna. There is no attack on "Freedom to Practice Religion". Please substantiate this slander of "the atheist movement". For that matter, who are the leaders of this movement and where can I sign up?

There are a great MANY attacks on Freedom to Impose religion, and Freedom From Ridicule or Freedom from Scorn. Growing displeasure with the entitled place religion has in public discourse is not an attack on religious freedom. You are not entitled to never have your beliefs mocked, or called asinine, or even to be told that such ideas have no place in public policy. You gave up that right the moment you opened your mouth and told someone what the deity has planned for us all.

'Hate' is the first defense of people who simply find other's opinions uncomfortable, and this is cuddly_tomato's main problem. He can't distinguish hate from a strongly held and defended opinion.

 

[Baby Tea]

There is something very wrong with the atheist movement right now. Religious people are starting to recognize and defend themselves from it, because it is a real and growing threat to their freedom to practice religion.

I would agree. It seems to be fashionable to be anti-theist, rather then simply atheist.
And with people like Dawkins and Hitchens mis-quoting scripture, and calling people to not merely turn from religion, but, it seems, revolt against it, it's no wonder that many different faiths, the mainstream and the obscure, are facing a rising amount of ignorance and intolerance.

Sadly, I'm afraid it'll only get worse. It'll probably be guised as a 'freedom' movement, claiming to 'free' people's minds by enslaving them into that way of thinking. So much for 'free thinkers'.

 

[Captain Blackout]

I disagree, Baby_Tea is merely defending Christianity where it is being attacked. He has not claimed to be a good Christian and has not even claimed that Christianity is "right". He has simply defended his right to be a Christian without facing the scorn and belittlement of others. The individual he blew off earned that, the only thing that puzzled me was that Baby_Tea didn't blow him off 3 pages ago. The way he is doing it is to try to clarify what he believes to be his personal code of Christianity and try to explain he has perfectly valid reasons for it.

Cpt. Blackout. I want you to read this [http://www.steve-olson.com/10-things-i-learned-from-my-4-year-old/]. Look at question 4. Then look at what happened in the comments section.

The discussion between Baby Tea and I started when he called out one of my posts. In said post, I took responsibility for what I wrote by explicitly saying "...I think...". Things went downhill from there. I'm sure Baby Tea has his perspective on why. I have mine which simply put is as follows: Rather than honestly try and understand where I'm coming from he took the standard Christian stance of "I have the Bible, I understand it, you don't, you're wrong, I'm right." I'm sure he would say this isn't the case. If you want a list of quotes showing where my perspective is coming from let me know and I'll pm them to you.
I have very specific reasons for the '"good" Christian' comment based on everything he has posted. I used Caross's post because A) He brought up a very good point with that post and B) When the complete trolls can make one of my points for me I'll put them to good use (or at least try to.)
I see exactly the point your making with the 4-year old article. I would submit that as much as anti-theism is a load of crap, Christians over the centuries are as much to blame for the issue. In the end it's not something I'm going to begin to deal with well here, much less solve. As I told Baby Tea it's pretty much time for me to put up or shut up, so I'm going to abandon some future threads I had in mind and spend my time (hopefully) more fruitfully and start my own "church." I frankly think Christianity needs a massive overhaul and I've got the chops to do it. Assuming I really have grasped Taoist humility and I'm not just being a freak again. We'll see.

 

[Stakhanov]

What he is trying to say is that respect is not taught by all religions. If your a Christian, your taught that people who don't believe are below you and you should talk them into believing the same way, etc....

Whoa whoa whoa, what? That is totally false. I'll admit that some Christians do that, but they don't get that from the teachings of Jesus that's for sure. I was never taught that people who aren't Christian are 'below me', and I've read a lot of Christian literature and been to a lot of churches.

Matthew 10:34- Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword.

The First Commandment as quoted in Deuteronomy- I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
7 you shall have no other gods before me.
8 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,
10 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

When Moses descends with the ten Commandments and finds that some of the Israelites have switched to an alternate religion he has them all massacred on Gods Instructions.

It's worth mentioning that after god commands Joshua to destroy Jericho to make more room for the Israelites, he provides a miracle to bring down the walls. After this he commands Joshua to kill every living adult and male child. The female children are to be kept to make more Israelites. [This line often gets ommitted from more modern Bibles, including the first one I owned, wouldn't want people to get the wrong idea!]

Elsewhere, the Lord commands Joshua that 'Everything that breathes' be slain. (Deuteronomy 20:16-18)

The Old Testament is a constant stream of tribes who worship 'false' gods or graven idols being overwhelmed and annihilated.

In the New Testament, there's also Matthew 7:15-23, part of the Sermon on the Mount, dealing with false prophets who pervert the true faith. Following them will deny you access to Heaven.

See also Acts 13:6-12, where a proponent of a 'false' religion is struck blind by the Apostle Paul.

So, if your Christianity hasn't taught you that non-believers are below you, it obviously hasn't invoked the journey out of Egypt, the Ten Commandments, the Acts of the Apostles or the Sermon on the Mount. Not that those bits are important.

 

[KamachoMcSagget]

Religion is something that drives inner power, and builds character, regardless of which one.
I agree that we should all be tolerant of eachothers religions, and talking down to others just provokes internet holy wars. This is regardless of all religeons, as none should get special privilages to talk down to others.
For example, no offence to any athiests reading this, I saw some having a huge allience against how other religions were untolerant and continualy bothersome. There were MANY messages about this on a public bulleton, so I view it as hypocracy, as they are being intolerant of stereotypes.
So yeah, hypocracy, intolerance, and making stereotypes are all results of not being able to get along.
So in conclusion, stand by what you believe

 

[Baby Tea]

Matthew 10:34- Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword.

*Snipped out OT references*

In the New Testament, there's also Matthew 7:15-23, part of the Sermon on the Mount, dealing with false prophets who pervert the true faith. Following them will deny you access to Heaven.

See also Acts 13:6-12, where a proponent of a 'false' religion is struck blind by the Apostle Paul.

So, if your Christianity hasn't taught you that non-believers are below you, it obviously hasn't invoked the journey out of Egypt, the Ten Commandments, the Acts of the Apostles or the Sermon on the Mount. Not that those bits are important.

Oh my, your misunderstanding of the scriptures, Christian faith, and hermeneutics are rather amusing.
I snipped out the passages in the Old Testament because, for future reference, the Christian worldview follows the New Testament. The Old Testament is there as a history of God's people, the collection of the Messianic prophecies that Christ fulfilled, the collection of God's law (Christians aren't under the law, but under grace. See Romans 6), and some really nice psalms and proverbs.

The Sermon on the Mount passage doesn't talk about 'looking down' on people, or mistreating them. So I'm wondering where you got that assumption. It does talk about making sure you aren't taken in my false teachers or prophets who pervert the message of Christ. How does that mean 'look down' upon them, exactly?

Same with the passage in Acts. The man who was blinded wasn't simply a proponent of a 'false' religion, but a man who was perverting the message of Christ. Here is the second half of verse 10: "...You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?" He wasn't just saying 'Hey guys! Try this other religion!' He was distorting and perverting Christianity. And he wasn't even permanently blind! Only temporary. I'd say it's quite the lesson learned.

And as for the Matthew 10 passage, that's another one that seems to be taken out of context all the time. People who don't actually read the whole chapter, or even 10 verses before and after, often pull this out going 'Look! Jesus was for violence!' When they really have no idea what they are talking about. The entire passage is actually talking about following Jesus, and the cost of doing so. It's about full commitment to Christ, and not following Him half-heartedly. Violence has nothing to do with it. And 'looking down' on people is not mentioned here either.

I find it odd you'd make that jump in logic to assume that because Christians disagree with other worldviews that that automatically means they 'look down on them'. Especially when no passage supports that position (Unless you've got more that I can educate you in), and there are passages that talk about 'loving your neighbour' and 'loving and praying for your enemies'.

So please, if you're going to throw out passages, be ready to back it up with something a bit more substantial. It almost seems like you just copy and pasted from some ignorant anti-theist website. I would hope you're able to think for yourself.

 

[Baby Tea]

The discussion between Baby Tea and I started when he called out one of my posts. In said post, I took responsibility for what I wrote by explicitly saying "...I think...". Things went downhill from there. I'm sure Baby Tea has his perspective on why. I have mine which simply put is as follows: Rather than honestly try and understand where I'm coming from he took the standard Christian stance of "I have the Bible, I understand it, you don't, you're wrong, I'm right." I'm sure he would say this isn't the case.

No, you're right. I did call you out on a post. I may have done it in a rude or frank manner, and for that I am genuinely sorry. Like I said earlier: I don't mind what you believe, it's when people misrepresent Christianity that I get my back up a bit.
Perhaps a bit too much in some respects, but I am passionate about my faith.
I always enjoy hearing the theological and philosophical positions of people's worldviews, and I'm all ears and mind to hear your position (If you don't fee like cluttering the forum any longer, you can PM me as well). That doesn't mean I'll agree with said position, of course, but I'm always very interested in understanding where others are coming from (If you an believe it).

Now, I stand by my bewilderment that you'd call yourself a Christian when you yourself said:
"What I'm proposing is not what you'd expect and I'm not calling on the god of the Abrahamic spectrum."
Since Christianity is centrally focused on the God of Abraham and Him sending His son, Jesus. If you're merely taking the morality and 'love' teachings of Christ from the scriptures (Which is what it seems, though I could be mistaken), then the very heart of Christianity isn't there: That Christ died on the cross for the salvation of man's sins, rose from the dead to conquer death, and will return again.

Again, I'm honestly looking to clear up the animosity here. It almost seems we're both fighting a similar fight (Religious right and freedom), but we butted heads a bit. I will admit I bumped first, and that's why I'm stepping back and offering a 'cease fire' and a bit of (attempted) understanding.

Truce?

 

[Velocirapture07]

Better yet, people need to stop thinking they're better than one another when neither can prove anything at all. We all need a little respect for each others' beliefs.

Well, then let's just respect the hell out of the belief that non-believers need to die. That is what you're proposing. The 19 hijackers on 09.11.01 were nothing if not true believers. What else could make educated middle class men hijack and fly planes into buildings?

If you say we must respect religion and beliefs, then we must respect the worst. We must respect the Jonestowns and the suicide bombers.

I do not respect your religion or your beliefs, much like you don't respect mine. At least I don't believe in a perfect sky fairy who has to impress us by incarnating as his own son and then get crucified just so I could agree with myself not to let you burn in a hell of my own creation for all eternity.

I like this. I had a similar reaction when I read that post. I like your avatar too!

 

[Captain Blackout]

Matthew 10:34- Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword.


So, if your Christianity hasn't taught you that non-believers are below you, it obviously hasn't invoked the journey out of Egypt, the Ten Commandments, the Acts of the Apostles or the Sermon on the Mount. Not that those bits are important.

I take a Frank Herbert kind of view. The old testament has some wonderful things in it. It is also downright brutal and has some outright garbage and lies. I made a choice to keep faith in a higher power. Having done so I can easily see how Jesus is from God. However the core message changes ever so slightly for me and others like me (and they are out there.) Certainly many Christians believe that the only way to God is through Jesus. Ask them what that means for others. You won't always get a straight answer but often enough it means someone is headed to hell. Since I no longer believe in hell in a eternal sense it changes the rest of it.

I'm NOT recommending Christianity to you. I'm just saying that even with the whole "Kill all the Amaleks, even the infants, and woe to those who took adoptees" thing, there is a Christian perspective that works. It requires taking the Bible for what it really is and reading it with the core value of compassion in mind. You end up throwing out a lot of garbage but you end up keeping and making better use of the rest of it.

On another note, I wanted to ask you: Did you only read one translation of the "Tao Te Jhing" or did you ever read more than one?