Automakers Fear Campaign To Try and Take Away Your Right to Repair Your Own Car

lil devils x

🐐More Lego Goats Please!🐐
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,330
1,045
118
Country
🐐USA🐐
Gender
♀
I see. I guess you decided to also become a mechanic but for people. And how are you doing in terms of health now? You said you thought you were going to have to have another surgery? Or are you recovering enough that you don't think you need to do that now?
LOL.. My Dad actually gave a me a graduation card that was basically like that with me as a " human Mechanic" XD Yea it will be a long while before another surgery though, I have to heal from this one and see how much scar tissue builds up. With a suppressed immune system everything takes so much longer to heal and doesn't always heal properly so I am still in the just wait and see period for now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Specter Von Baren

Baffle

Elite Member
Oct 22, 2016
3,459
2,746
118
Oh yeah, my dad owned a Mini Cooper. Do not buy a Mini Cooper.

The car drove great, it was really nimble and fun to drive, and the build quality felt really solid. The repairs also weren't too frequent, but when you had to get one, oh boy.
They're also a horrible shape. Like, if Cthulhu laid eggs, then self-fertilized them by jizzing out some awful Union Jack waving sperms, I reckon you'd get a Mini Cooper. Fucking bloody awful (IMO).
 
  • Like
Reactions: lil devils x

Mister Mumbler

Pronounced "Throat-wobbler Mangrove"
Legacy
Jun 17, 2020
1,844
1,692
118
Nowhere
Country
United States
I just realized that with my knowledge on the subject, I can actually explain what the article is actually all about and such (oh fuck, who keeps getting grandpa drunk?)

So it all starts at the tail end of the 70's, during the gas crisis America came to realize two points: 1) 3 ton land yachts that get less than 10 mpg downhill isn't so smart in a world where gasoline isn't a guarantee and 2) that maybe putting in a poisonous metal into hundreds of millions of cars on the road is probably not the greatest thing for people's health (tailpipe emissions at this time were so bad that they literally killed plant life along major roads and freeways, on top of the fact that they were only adding in the lead because engines were so poorly designed/inefficient that having noncombustible metal in the gasoline mixture was the only way to prevent the engine from igniting the mixture too early and blowing up the engine). So along comes the idea of trying to reduce these emissions in the form Catalytic converters, which use specific metals and heat to turn the emissions from poison into a mixture of air and water (water gets formed in the conversion process, this is why your tailpipes drip sometimes and you get puddles of water underneath running vehicles). Unfortunately, as the tech was still in its infancy at the time, cars from the early days of emission control were fucking awful (it's why you still see a lot of older mechands swear by full on cutting out the cat, because in their experience with these first lemons that actually did work), both in terms of performance and the fact that these emission parts were being detroyed at an alarming rate. Turns out if you want to control emissions, it might be helpful if you knew more about what the car was doing than just the temperature of the coolant.

A decade or so of this later, America passes a law requiring all vehicle manufacturers to implement systems to both monitor the engine and emission control systems, and for these monitors to talk to a central computer that you could get codes that tell you what in particular was going wrong. This is OBD-I (On Board Diagnostics), and came about in the late 80's, early 90's or so, but it quickly caused problems, because shocking no one, car makers kinda suck. Since they didn't specify how the OBD should work, it quickly became the wild west where every manufacturer had different systems in place. Some had the precursor to the current system, with a direct connection to the computer via an electrical connection to a diag tool, some had you litreally do a special sequence if actions before the car would blink/flash out a Morse code with a light to tell you the codes contained in the computer, and all systems were unique between manufacturers to the point where you had to get several different, specific tools to communicate with the vehicle.

So America passes a new law around 1996 or so, which turns into the current system still being used today, OBD-II. Unlike the previous generation, they decided to make this law mostly about standarizing the whole thing; the connector to access the vehicles computers is a specificly shaped 127-pin connector, that has to be a within a certain distance of the stewrong wheel but most importantly, it set a standardized code system for emission and engine performance related to emission. So for instance, the code that gets generated when the vehicle is running too rich on a Ford F150 is the same as a Honda Civic. This is how you get $20 code readers from your local auto parts store and (mostly) figure out why your check engine light came on.

However, and here we finally catch up to the present with this bill, is that as some of you eagle-eyed users may have already seen (and due to the fact that, again, car makers kinda suck) is that this standardized code list only applies to emission and engine systems that deal specificly with emissions, which meant that for everything else it was up to manufacturers choice, so every other computer (one some cars these days they can get into the double digits) put out codes unique to that specific auto maker. Plus, you need specific software in the form of auto maker provided diag tools that are able to communicate with that brand of vehicle. TheyThis is why that $20 code reader won't tell you why your rear window won't roll down, but I can, in about 5 mins, find out that the motor electrical power circuit is open. What it looks like to me is that this specific bill will make it so auto makers have to make this open-source, which off course pissed of auto makers because the auto tool industry is an insanely lucrative business, and if they were forced to offer their software out like that will cost them all the sales they make with their diagnostic scan tools.

Holy shit, what a long mess of words...
 

Mister Mumbler

Pronounced "Throat-wobbler Mangrove"
Legacy
Jun 17, 2020
1,844
1,692
118
Nowhere
Country
United States
I... think I get it? So considering all of that, do you think this thing should be open source?
Yes, but to be honest, that's less "me the auto technician" and more to do with the fact that I abso-fucking-lutely hate the anti-consumer trend that has been happening the past decade or so, because it just isn't cars being effected either:
 
  • Like
Reactions: lil devils x

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
8,697
2,881
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
I just realized that with my knowledge on the subject, I can actually explain what the article is actually all about and such (oh fuck, who keeps getting grandpa drunk?)

So it all starts at the tail end of the 70's, during the gas crisis America came to realize two points: 1) 3 ton land yachts that get less than 10 mpg downhill isn't so smart in a world where gasoline isn't a guarantee and 2) that maybe putting in a poisonous metal into hundreds of millions of cars on the road is probably not the greatest thing for people's health (tailpipe emissions at this time were so bad that they literally killed plant life along major roads and freeways, on top of the fact that they were only adding in the lead because engines were so poorly designed/inefficient that having noncombustible metal in the gasoline mixture was the only way to prevent the engine from igniting the mixture too early and blowing up the engine). So along comes the idea of trying to reduce these emissions in the form Catalytic converters, which use specific metals and heat to turn the emissions from poison into a mixture of air and water (water gets formed in the conversion process, this is why your tailpipes drip sometimes and you get puddles of water underneath running vehicles). Unfortunately, as the tech was still in its infancy at the time, cars from the early days of emission control were fucking awful (it's why you still see a lot of older mechands swear by full on cutting out the cat, because in their experience with these first lemons that actually did work), both in terms of performance and the fact that these emission parts were being detroyed at an alarming rate. Turns out if you want to control emissions, it might be helpful if you knew more about what the car was doing than just the temperature of the coolant.

A decade or so of this later, America passes a law requiring all vehicle manufacturers to implement systems to both monitor the engine and emission control systems, and for these monitors to talk to a central computer that you could get codes that tell you what in particular was going wrong. This is OBD-I (On Board Diagnostics), and came about in the late 80's, early 90's or so, but it quickly caused problems, because shocking no one, car makers kinda suck. Since they didn't specify how the OBD should work, it quickly became the wild west where every manufacturer had different systems in place. Some had the precursor to the current system, with a direct connection to the computer via an electrical connection to a diag tool, some had you litreally do a special sequence if actions before the car would blink/flash out a Morse code with a light to tell you the codes contained in the computer, and all systems were unique between manufacturers to the point where you had to get several different, specific tools to communicate with the vehicle.

So America passes a new law around 1996 or so, which turns into the current system still being used today, OBD-II. Unlike the previous generation, they decided to make this law mostly about standarizing the whole thing; the connector to access the vehicles computers is a specificly shaped 127-pin connector, that has to be a within a certain distance of the stewrong wheel but most importantly, it set a standardized code system for emission and engine performance related to emission. So for instance, the code that gets generated when the vehicle is running too rich on a Ford F150 is the same as a Honda Civic. This is how you get $20 code readers from your local auto parts store and (mostly) figure out why your check engine light came on.

However, and here we finally catch up to the present with this bill, is that as some of you eagle-eyed users may have already seen (and due to the fact that, again, car makers kinda suck) is that this standardized code list only applies to emission and engine systems that deal specificly with emissions, which meant that for everything else it was up to manufacturers choice, so every other computer (one some cars these days they can get into the double digits) put out codes unique to that specific auto maker. Plus, you need specific software in the form of auto maker provided diag tools that are able to communicate with that brand of vehicle. TheyThis is why that $20 code reader won't tell you why your rear window won't roll down, but I can, in about 5 mins, find out that the motor electrical power circuit is open. What it looks like to me is that this specific bill will make it so auto makers have to make this open-source, which off course pissed of auto makers because the auto tool industry is an insanely lucrative business, and if they were forced to offer their software out like that will cost them all the sales they make with their diagnostic scan tools.

Holy shit, what a long mess of words...
Wasn't, during the demand for emssion control, Honda was developing its own system. But the US government decided to standardize it all, making Honda option impossible... which made the original problem with Catalyst converters worse

Edit: My father in law owned a mechanic shop til last year. He ended up not actually working on many vehicles at the end because they kept updating designs and he just couldn't keep up. Half the time it was the computer you need to by to read the onboard computers that he couldn't deal with
 

lil devils x

🐐More Lego Goats Please!🐐
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,330
1,045
118
Country
🐐USA🐐
Gender
♀
Yes, but to be honest, that's less "me the auto technician" and more to do with the fact that I abso-fucking-lutely hate the anti-consumer trend that has been happening the past decade or so, because it just isn't cars being effected either:
I really think that right to repair should be universal for all products. Farm equipment and automobiles in addition to computers, appliances, phones and other electronics as well. If you purchase a product, you should be able to have the right to repair it yourself. Standardization and opensource software is a must for being able to do that. It isn't just tractors that can be bricked without this, with the advancement of technology, this can apply to your washing machine, stove, air conditioner and refrigerator as well leaving people screwed when they cannot afford to replace it when it otherwise would have been a simple repair. Before you know it they are like "you cannot replace the filament on your oven because you have to now reset the computer"... Just more planned obsolescence BS.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: MrCalavera

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,963
118
The biggest issue as I see it is that it would effectively put control of our means of transportation in the hands of giant companies and, ostensibly, the government since it will be the laws of the government that enforce this.
I don't think the government is terribly relevant to this except that it may or may not permit it to happen.

It's rentier capitalism: businesses capturing economic space and extracting rents for providing effectively nothing, because that's a very lazy way to make money. As it is the ethically-mandated job of a business to maximise shareholder returns, extracting such rents is an enormously attractive business model. The fact that it's fuck all use to everyone else on the planet isn't their problem.
 

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
Aug 25, 2013
5,632
2,849
118
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
I don't think the government is terribly relevant to this except that it may or may not permit it to happen.

It's rentier capitalism: businesses capturing economic space and extracting rents for providing effectively nothing, because that's a very lazy way to make money. As it is the ethically-mandated job of a business to maximise shareholder returns, extracting such rents is an enormously attractive business model. The fact that it's fuck all use to everyone else on the planet isn't their problem.
That permission is very relevant. If you are assuming that I'm trying to excuse the corporations with my words, let me iterate my point differently. I don't like corporations doing this sort of thing, it's part of why I do not look on the coming digital age with high hopes, that all of what is "ours" is digital and able to be taken away with a few mouse clicks. But it is government and our laws that are supposed to prevent these sorts of things, what one rightfully owns should be rightfully their own and one should be able to do what one wishes with it so long as it does not harm others unduly. Lawmakers allowing this kind of thing to happen is what enables these companies to act with justification. I do not like big government nor big companies, I like them working together even less. I'm not great with my words so I don't know if what I'm trying to express is coming through them but I hope you at least understand how I feel on this emotionally.
 

Secondhand Revenant

Recycle, Reduce, Redead
Legacy
Oct 29, 2014
2,564
139
68
Baator
Country
The Nine Hells
Gender
Male
You're more right than you know actually. BMW (I believe, may also be Mercedes too) are actually trying to make it so you can't even physically open the hood of your car without one of those scan tools mentioned in the article, meaning for things as simple as refilling wiper washer fluid means taking it to a mechanic with the proper tool to open it for you.
I'm not really surprised. I mean I made the joke because it's just the same direction Apple has with their products so it's like... Yeah.
 

Secondhand Revenant

Recycle, Reduce, Redead
Legacy
Oct 29, 2014
2,564
139
68
Baator
Country
The Nine Hells
Gender
Male
That permission is very relevant. If you are assuming that I'm trying to excuse the corporations with my words, let me iterate my point differently. I don't like corporations doing this sort of thing, it's part of why I do not look on the coming digital age with high hopes, that all of what is "ours" is digital and able to be taken away with a few mouse clicks. But it is government and our laws that are supposed to prevent these sorts of things, what one rightfully owns should be rightfully their own and one should be able to do what one wishes with it so long as it does not harm others unduly. Lawmakers allowing this kind of thing to happen is what enables these companies to act with justification. I do not like big government nor big companies, I like them working together even less. I'm not great with my words so I don't know if what I'm trying to express is coming through them but I hope you at least understand how I feel on this emotionally.
I mean it's not the laws of the government enforcing this, it's the lack of laws preventing it allowing it. All the companies have to do is make it not feasible for you to do the work yourself or for anyone who isn't hired by them etc. Without a law they can put up all the barriers they like in their design to make it not feasible for anyone but themselves to fix it and tbh the issue is the government lacking regulations to prevent that
 

Mister Mumbler

Pronounced "Throat-wobbler Mangrove"
Legacy
Jun 17, 2020
1,844
1,692
118
Nowhere
Country
United States
Don't apologize for high quality posts.

View attachment 751
Yeah, as obnoxious as this was to type out, it is nice to be able to be able to talk about something that I know.

Wasn't, during the demand for emssion control, Honda was developing its own system. But the US government decided to standardize it all, making Honda option impossible... which made the original problem with Catalyst converters worse

Edit: My father in law owned a mechanic shop til last year. He ended up not actually working on many vehicles at the end because they kept updating designs and he just couldn't keep up. Half the time it was the computer you need to by to read the onboard computers that he couldn't deal with
I'm not too sure about the Honda thing to be honest, but I wouldn't be surprised either. Sorry to hear about your father in law's shop. There's really only two options to go with for those diagnostic scam tools, either going through the actual auto manufacturers which are extremely expensive and I imagine that there are licensing fees/contracts to deal with and the fact that it will only work for that brand of vehicle but you get full functionality and control over the various control modules (computers that receive information/inputs from sensors and switches and activates motors/lights/etc), or you could go with a third party scan tool from one of the big tool companies for a lot less than the proprietary tools (still costs about 20-30k though, along with those thousand dollar yearly updates to keep it up to date with new models coming out) but the problem is that since it isn't using the software from the OEM tools, you can't actually do very outside of reading the trouble codes the vehicles modules set and what the sensors are telling the module, while the scan tools I use for my job let me actually manipulate the values that the sensors are putting out (for example, I can look at the value that the sensor reading the accelerator's position and change it to read as 100%, and the car acts as if I had actually stepped on the pedal). Plus, OEM tools actually can run specificly programmed tests to see if the everything is working correctly.
 

lil devils x

🐐More Lego Goats Please!🐐
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,330
1,045
118
Country
🐐USA🐐
Gender
♀
Yeah, as obnoxious as this was to type out, it is nice to be able to be able to talk about something that I know.


I'm not too sure about the Honda thing to be honest, but I wouldn't be surprised either. Sorry to hear about your father in law's shop. There's really only two options to go with for those diagnostic scam tools, either going through the actual auto manufacturers which are extremely expensive and I imagine that there are licensing fees/contracts to deal with and the fact that it will only work for that brand of vehicle but you get full functionality and control over the various control modules (computers that receive information/inputs from sensors and switches and activates motors/lights/etc), or you could go with a third party scan tool from one of the big tool companies for a lot less than the proprietary tools (still costs about 20-30k though, along with those thousand dollar yearly updates to keep it up to date with new models coming out) but the problem is that since it isn't using the software from the OEM tools, you can't actually do very outside of reading the trouble codes the vehicles modules set and what the sensors are telling the module, while the scan tools I use for my job let me actually manipulate the values that the sensors are putting out (for example, I can look at the value that the sensor reading the accelerator's position and change it to read as 100%, and the car acts as if I had actually stepped on the pedal). Plus, OEM tools actually can run specificly programmed tests to see if the everything is working correctly.
Yea, the way the shop my brother works for gets around footing the entire bill is they work out of a large barn that has 3 separate auto shops + a mobile mechanic service inside it, and they all split the bill and share the scanners. Joining up together is the best way independent shops can afford to operate these days with the asinine costs trying to do them all in. Open sourcing this stuff would really mean so much to independent shops and side working mechanics.
Independent shops no longer view each other as the competition, they instead have to unite to survive at this point.
 

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
8,697
2,881
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
Yeah, as obnoxious as this was to type out, it is nice to be able to be able to talk about something that I know.


I'm not too sure about the Honda thing to be honest, but I wouldn't be surprised either. Sorry to hear about your father in law's shop. There's really only two options to go with for those diagnostic scam tools, either going through the actual auto manufacturers which are extremely expensive and I imagine that there are licensing fees/contracts to deal with and the fact that it will only work for that brand of vehicle but you get full functionality and control over the various control modules (computers that receive information/inputs from sensors and switches and activates motors/lights/etc), or you could go with a third party scan tool from one of the big tool companies for a lot less than the proprietary tools (still costs about 20-30k though, along with those thousand dollar yearly updates to keep it up to date with new models coming out) but the problem is that since it isn't using the software from the OEM tools, you can't actually do very outside of reading the trouble codes the vehicles modules set and what the sensors are telling the module, while the scan tools I use for my job let me actually manipulate the values that the sensors are putting out (for example, I can look at the value that the sensor reading the accelerator's position and change it to read as 100%, and the car acts as if I had actually stepped on the pedal). Plus, OEM tools actually can run specificly programmed tests to see if the everything is working correctly.
He is already over 65 so he was probably ready to retire anyway. He had good workmen for the last couple of years doing all the mechanical stuff while he ran the business. He did sell it to someone, as he has the major contract for the energy company in that city (so half his work with one brand of truck, making it easier.)

He now on the beach near the Bundaberg Rum distillery. So he's all cool
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,963
118
Lawmakers allowing this kind of thing to happen is what enables these companies to act with justification.
Lawmakers have some agency of their own, but to a large extent they do what they are incentivised to do. Businesses incentivise them with money, and citizens with votes.

However, with public political debate in a state of ruin as it is now, there is a much wider door for business to walk in and ensure government meets its preferences rather than anyone else's.
 

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
Aug 25, 2013
5,632
2,849
118
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
Lawmakers have some agency of their own, but to a large extent they do what they are incentivised to do. Businesses incentivise them with money, and citizens with votes.

However, with public political debate in a state of ruin as it is now, there is a much wider door for business to walk in and ensure government meets its preferences rather than anyone else's.
On this, I certainly agree.