Backlash after Gorilla Shot in Cincinnati Zoo (Updated)

[Areloch]

Wow, there's some furious intellectual masturbation going on in here.

It's like the real-life version of the 'would you save a dog or a person from a whirlpool' threads we used to have.

On topic: I'd really like to know the circumstances that lead to the kid getting in there in the first place. Every zoo I've been to or seen makes that night impossible to just 'whoopsie' into. Given the circumstances, the zoo did what they are obligated to do, but I do feel that without an exceptionally good reason the parents should be fined and give reperations to the zoo so they can get a replacement gorilla.

As for the "Zoos are evil" comments, lots of zoos are WAY more than "animals in cages" including doing research, conservation efforts, breeding to increase numbers for endangered species and educating the populous about animals, their habitats and things that can be done to help them.

Zoos do far more good than they do harm in this way.

 

[maninahat]

I like the misleading text on the Guardian link: "gorilla-shot-cincinnati-zoo-child".

It's an unfortunate situation and it isn't up for armchair zookeepers like me to decide when a Gorilla is posing a threat to a kid's life. Also, I find it hard to make a judgement about whether the boy's or the gorilla's life was "more valuable".

Perhaps there is only one fair solution.

Shoot them both.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I can correctly call you a biased anthrocentrist. It doesn't mean much, most humans are.

I happily hold the title. Bias ain't always a bad thing.

From the point of view of possibly intelligent nonhumans that we have oppressed, it can be. I have met humans who I would only save after I saved other animals. To say that humans are fundamentally better is such hubris. Nonhuman intelligence is not necessarily worse or lesser. Sentient's rights matter, even if not human.

Unfortunately, none of my reasons for regarding humanity as the greater have a single whit to do with intelligence or sentience and everything to do with pre-distributed value, but I get the feeling that you aren't religious and this argument could go a very depressing direction if it continues further.

I'm pretty sure taking religion and dogmatic values of things only improves the discourse.

It's quite fine with me to reason that a human life is worth more to us. It's deplorable to me to value a human more than a gorilla just because 'God said so' or some such.

If God is real, and declared humans worth more, then it's hardly deplorable, it's simply what is. That said, I was trying to AVOID this, so I won't follow any further.

It would be deplorable all the same to decide morality just based on what someone else said.

 

[PolarBearClub]

I think the zoo had no alternative. Suddenly, everyone on social media is a gorilla expert after reading an article or two and have decided that the gorilla was in fact 'protecting the child'. Is this the same way killer whales are just 'playing' with seals (before they tear them to shreds?). Unfortunately we'll never know what the gorilla may or may not have done, but how could the zoo have possibly allowed the gorilla to drag the child out of sight and just hope he would come to no harm?

And suddenly everyone is fully anti-zoo...until their next visit, after this whole incident has blown over and retreated into the e-void along with Cecil the lion and any other recent outrages. I'm from Ireland, and Dublin Zoo and Fota Wildlife Park in Cork are two of the best conservation organisations in Europe. People seem to suddenly be of the opinion that zoos send teams into the wild to catch and bag animals to bring them back for our amusement. The reason it's an 'attraction' is to help fund the conservation efforts. You're donating without having the stigma of charity involved.

I was in Belfast Zoo recently and they had three elephants. My girlfriend noted how the one closest to us was bobbing its head in a peculiar fashion. It wasn't something we had witnessed before. We read the info sheet at the enclosure, which said that all three elephants had been rescued from one or more circuses. The bobbing was a result of their maltreatment. Animals such as these would have no quality of life if released into the wild. I know not every case is as extreme as this. Other animals may be in zoos as part of breeding programmes. You could argue that if a species is heading towards extinction then we should not interfere, except I'm sure human activity is responsible for more than it's fair share of animal endangerment.

However, there are certainly poorly maintained zoos too, which are badly in need of stricter regulations. Rome zoo is (was, back in 2010/2011, at least) an appalling sight. We watched one visitor step over the 'fence' (a single metallic wire strung between wooden posts) and produce some fruit which she was able to stretch her hand out to feed an elephant. There was a 10-15ft ditch between them, which the elephant could easily have fallen in to. A monkey enclosure also appeared to be dangerously overcrowded. We left after less than an hour.

 

[bluegate]

If your child falls into a pen "accidentally" you should let nature play it?s course, let the child die if that is what the outcome is.

Tough luck, make a new one, regret your actions, and maybe do better in round 2.

Nature did play its course; we humans evolved to the point where we have the ability to lock up and kill animals on a whim, which is precisely what happened here. The course of nature favored us humans to the point where we are able to simply point a stick at a gorilla and it falls down, dead.

As for the topic at hand:
The parents should have paid more attention;
The park should have put more thought into their set up, if a three year old can get into a gorilla pen on his own, you have made a mistake in designing your zoo.

 

[Gorrath]

If your child falls into a pen "accidentally" you should let nature play it?s course, let the child die if that is what the outcome is.

Tough luck, make a new one, regret your actions, and maybe do better in round 2.

Nature did play its course; we humans evolved to the point where we have the ability to lock up and kill animals at a whim, which is precisely what happened here. The course of nature favored us humans to the point where we are able to simply point a stick at a gorilla and it falls down, dead.

As for the topic at hand:
The parents should have paid more attention;
The park should have put more thought into their set up, if a three year old can get into a gorilla pen on his own, you have made a mistake in designing your zoo.

There's a sort of dissonance where people seem to forget that humans are just evolved animals too. If ash borers eat every ash tree on the planet, it's nature. If humans cut down every ash tree on the planet, it's unnatural. We are simply unique in that we have far, far more impact on the environment than any other creature to ever walk the Earth and a self-awareness that causes us to see ourselves as separate from everything else that's going on. I think the distinction is useful, but it's not accurate. Everything we do is "natural."

 

[The Lunatic]

Gorillas need to be reminded that planet of the apes is entirely a work of fiction, I see not better way than reminding them of their place at the end of a barrel of a gun.



I'm kidding.

It's unfortunate, really it is. However, ultimately, if they didn't do something, kid could very well have died, which... Well, the life of a gorilla is a lot lower than that of a child.

Ultimately, The zoo has a responsibility to ensure nobody ends up in animal enclosures, whilst a degree of common sense is expected by the humans there. It's a foolish thing to rely upon.

 

[Callate]

There was a HuffPost article on the incident that could be summed up as: "This was the worst day of the mother's life! This was an accident! Where is your empathy?!"

To which I'm inclined to say: I have tremendous empathy- for the kid. For the mother? Not so much. Everyone's sorry after an accident has tragic consequences. That doesn't mean they couldn't have done a better job preventing it from happening in the first place. Welcome to the world of being an adult.

(And I'm sure all the bright bulbs screaming around an agitated gorilla helped the situation no end...)

As for the zoo, I think they did what they had to do. It's a shame.

 

[MCerberus]

I guess I'm spoiled by having a good zoo where animals could run around in good environments with the Cheetah breeding program in a no-access area so they could screw in peace. The only animal in any danger was the peacock, but he honestly got away with so many escape attempts it became a running joke (it had the run of the zoo. later on there was also a white turkey who was mostly lazy AF). Point being I don't see this zoo hate.

Also this is a really weird question in ethics. If you take out anthrocentricism, we don't know if gorillas are sapient. Intelligent yes, but sapience has kind of a floating definition that makes judgments of personhood really, REALLY weird. And the weirder part is that adult gorillas may be more sapient than 3 year olds, whose higher brain functions haven't come on line. So this can be argued to be anything from 'animal shot, shit happens' to 'rational being killed because of actions of potential rational being'. Not the only family of animal this comes up with either. Turns out sea mammals can lose their sanity in a very similar manner as humans in solitary confinement when they're on display.

 

[Steve the Pocket]

The zookeepers made the right decision, but the parents absolutely need to face serious punishment. They should, at the very least, be fined the cost of the gorilla.

Edit: I don't know how much a gorilla costs, but that could be life ruiningly expensive, so maybe at tad less.

Edit 2: Nevermind, they're way cheaper than I would have though. They can get an idiot fine on top of the gorilla fine.

Sue them for the cost of the gorilla plus whatever they estimate the hit to their PR is going to cost them in lost ticket sales and donations down the line. Plus, even getting another gorilla is likely to cost way more than whatever market price you dug up because they're now what insurance adjusters would call a "risk".

If your child falls into a pen "accidentally" you should let nature play it?s course, let the child die if that is what the outcome is.

Tough luck, make a new one, regret your actions, and maybe do better in round 2.

Nature did play its course; we humans evolved to the point where we have the ability to lock up and kill animals on a whim, which is precisely what happened here. The course of nature favored us humans to the point where we are able to simply point a stick at a gorilla and it falls down, dead.

Well played. If we believed that natural selection was fair, we wouldn't be building zoos to preserve endangered species in the first place. 90% of the time people invoke "natural selection", it's just thinly-veiled misanthropy, and Tropical here demonstrated that excellently.

 

[springheeljack]

I don't really get the outrage over this the child was in danger and I fully believe that a human life is worth more than some gorillas. How good a climber was this kid though to get into the enclosure? This would have never happened in my play through of zoo tycoon I can tell you that much. Well at least the play through when I didn't let the animals free to attack the humans.
I hope the family doesn't receive too many death threats and the child isn't bullied relentlessly for this.

 

[COMaestro]

I am a bit disgusted at all the immediate assumptions that these parents deserve to have their child taken away without having any idea of how the child got into the enclosure. I'm willing to bet most people making such declarations have no children of their own. Being a parent is hard enough work as it is and it is incredibly tiring being "on" all the time. Kids are quick and can be damn willful and it is entirely possible that even with her paying 100% attention to the child, he still could have slipped away.

Sure, maybe she is a bad parent, but not one person on here has thought that maybe she's an excellent parent whose child still managed to get away from her for just long enough to endanger himself and leading to this tragedy. Usual kneejerk reactions with no consideration for other possibilities.

To which I'm inclined to say: I have tremendous empathy- for the kid. For the mother? Not so much. Everyone's sorry after an accident has tragic consequences. That doesn't mean they couldn't have done a better job preventing it from happening in the first place. Welcome to the world of being an adult.

Well who the hell is sorry BEFORE an accident? This just doesn't make any sense. Until we get some kind of report that the mother here was just letting her child run around freely and climb up on the 3 ft. high fence to get a better look at the gorillas without pulling him down, I'd like to assume she was being a responsible adult. Innocent until proven guilty used to be a saying but sure seems to have less supporters in the age of the instant internet outrage machine.

 

[MCerberus]

I don't really get the outrage over this the child was in danger and I fully believe that a human life is worth more than some gorillas. How good a climber was this kid though to get into the enclosure? This would have never happened in my play through of zoo tycoon I can tell you that much. Well at least the play through when I didn't let the animals free to attack the humans.
I hope the family doesn't receive too many death threats and the child isn't bullied relentlessly for this.

Those lions kept making more lions. They needed more space, so I gave it to them. I WAS A GOOD ZOO TYCOON DAMN IT

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I hate zoos. The killing was just, but the animal shouldn't have been confined and on display like that in the first place.

I mean for some animals, I'd agree.

But if I was a Gorilla? I think I'd totally dig being in a Zoo. Don't have to worry about food, I got enough room to lounge around. I got hairless apes I can interact with behind glass, shit I'm a natural performer why not? and every once in a while they hook me up with a lady gorrilla to bang.

Maybe every once a while some asshole tosses me a lit ciggerate and half a beer.

For a Gorilla a fail to see the problem vs the wild. It's not like I'm an elephant or a lion that needs to hunt. So long as I got some monkey friends, and they're not killing me, I'd probably think it was a pretty sweet deal.

Hell the only wild animal I'd want to be in the wild is a Japanese Snow Monkey. They have no natural predators, they chill in a hot spring all day, they gorge themselves on food all spring, they have friends.

For any other animal I imagine it SUCKS to be not in a zoo, cause you're constantly having to worry about somebody trying to kill ya and where the next meal is coming. What kind of life is that? Unless... like an Elephant doesn't get preyed, I suppose being an elephant in the wild wouldn't suck. Or a Rhino. I don't think I could be a hippo, they're kinda assholes.

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

This is what's wrong with our society. Darwinism gets no chance to cull the stupid.

Shame on these parents. I saw on the news today that the enclosure and it's barrier have been fine for 38 years. If your kid is the only one to fall in after almost 4 decades then you're the problem.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Do none of you understand how easy it is to lose a child?

As if none of you wandered off from your mom while at the store or something. Maybe you hid in the clothing racks.

For fucks sake people, a mistake was made in parenting. The child doesn't deserve to die, and they're not horrible parents because the kid wandered off.

I'm sorry the ape had to die, but shit happens.

They should have shot the parents.

But really, I'd hope they could do something else to stop the gorilla aside from killing it.

I agree. The parents should be at least heavily fined. Their negligence led to the death of an endangered animal. Literally the only ones at fault. The zookeepers had no other choice, really. If the gorilla felt threatened at any point it would have killed the kid.

Even if it didn't feel threatened, it probably would of killed the kid and eaten him. They do do that, sometimes to baby gorillas of rival groups.

and if he had, no one would be questioning the decision to kill the animal. It also would be probably the most metal youtube video ever.

 

[thewatergamer]

It sucks that the gorilla had to die, but their is no tranquilizer that would be able to knock it out before it killed the kid, I don't get why anyone is getting angry about this, if you establish proper context, the gorilla was shot in order to prevent a child from being killed, I have several questions, including how the fuck does a kid end up in a gorilla pen, but as far as I'm concerned the zoo staff did the right thing

Though I can't speak for everyone angry about this, I can at least speak for myself.

I'm not mad that the gorilla was killed when the situation reached what it did. A human's life takes priority of an animal's. I'm angry because this never should have been a situation in the first place. The Zoo should be re-eventuating their containment procedures and make sure that no visitor, no matter how young or stupid they may be, are able to enter. And I'm mostly angry at the shitty ass mom who at this point should be loosing custody of her child for not properly watching them and endangering their life. She should also be receiving a punch to the face for saying "accidents happen LOL" as a defense for being a shitty mom.

I'd be inclined to agree, given the situation, I do think that its important to do what had to be done in the moment, though yeah I have several questions mostly revolving around how the fuck did a situation like this happen in the first place?

 

[Scde2]

The zoo was unfortunately right in putting down the gorilla. Wish they put down the child's parents while they were at it.

 

[Vahir]

I hate zoos. The killing was just, but the animal shouldn't have been confined and on display like that in the first place.

I mean for some animals, I'd agree.

But if I was a Gorilla? I think I'd totally dig being in a Zoo. Don't have to worry about food, I got enough room to lounge around. I got hairless apes I can interact with behind glass, shit I'm a natural performer why not? and every once in a while they hook me up with a lady gorrilla to bang.

Maybe every once a while some asshole tosses me a lit ciggerate and half a beer.

For a Gorilla a fail to see the problem vs the wild. It's not like I'm an elephant or a lion that needs to hunt. So long as I got some monkey friends, and they're not killing me, I'd probably think it was a pretty sweet deal.

Hell the only wild animal I'd want to be in the wild is a Japanese Snow Monkey. They have no natural predators, they chill in a hot spring all day, they gorge themselves on food all spring, they have friends.

For any other animal I imagine it SUCKS to be not in a zoo, cause you're constantly having to worry about somebody trying to kill ya and where the next meal is coming. What kind of life is that? Unless... like an Elephant doesn't get preyed, I suppose being an elephant in the wild wouldn't suck. Or a Rhino. I don't think I could be a hippo, they're kinda assholes.

Pretty much spot on. Releasing zoo animals to FREEDOM is releasing them to starvation, pain, and in all likelyhood an early death. The "Zoos are evilz" viewpoint is irrational.

 

[Callate]

Well who the hell is sorry BEFORE an accident? This just doesn't make any sense. Until we get some kind of report that the mother here was just letting her child run around freely and climb up on the 3 ft. high fence to get a better look at the gorillas without pulling him down, I'd like to assume she was being a responsible adult. Innocent until proven guilty used to be a saying but sure seems to have less supporters in the age of the instant internet outrage machine.

Empathy causes you to consider the consequences of a potential accident before it occurs, and prudence causes you to take steps to avoid that eventuality in the first place.

As someone who was found not at fault in two auto collisions within a single week after fourteen years of safe driving- in neither case of which the other driver had insurance- I don't have a lot of patience for someone who failed to take basic steps to prevent such a preventable "accident" from occurring.

I have raised a child, and cared for others- and you don't let a three or four-year-old out of your sight in a crowded place, period.

I'm not calling for them to lose their child. But being a better parent damn well better start now.