Bad guys really do get the most girls.

[oktalist]

The article starts with the above statement, yet it consists entirely of sweeping generalisations about NGs. Hypocrite much?

Does the article claim to be a scientific study instead of an op-ed piece? If not, then no. Saying "aha! you generalized!" to an opinion piece written in broad strokes about a general, loosely-acknowledged social phenomenon is not a riposte.

I wasn't complaining about the generalisation per se, just the hypocrisy of an opinion piece composed entirely of generalisations having the cheek to accuse others of generalising. I must've missed where it said it wasn't being serious.

[small]What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving.[/small] You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, [small]or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually paid some kind of attention to him.[/small]

Who's the insecure one in that statement?

Maybe the context would be useful in answering that question.

Context added. When snipping context for space I always try to make sure it's not important context. My point still stands. (Whether or not it's relevant is another matter.) To be clear, my point is that that paragraph is describing desperate guys, not nice guys.

The way to build confidence is through experience.

No, the way to build confidence is to take a leap now and again, because the worst that can happen is she says no. Waiting for someone to take a chance on you -- and writing off those who don't as prejudiced -- is exactly the kind of borderline hostile passive-aggressiveness the article is talking about. And it's not hard for people to sense that under the surface when dealing with supposedly "nice guys."

I agree with that, and I don't see how it contradicts what I said.

 

[oktalist]

Confidence, a cheeky smile and the ability to treat a woman as (gasp!) an actual person with their own personality and attitudes will get a bloke a fair way in romancing the womenfolk.

Also, take a good hard look at yourself and your own behaviour, lads. While you're chasing some idealised bird who you've probably put on a pedastal so high the poor ***** probably needs breathing gear, how many REAL women, top quality birds, have you ignored because they didn't meet every box on your checklist? "Chase the Moon and trip over rocks," as my grandfather used to say.

This.

But I think this pedestal thing is just what happens when a guy fails in a relationship, and attributes his failure to not trying hard enough, so he thinks next time he must try harder, leading to this pedestal/worship thing. Not sure if I had a point with this; just trying to inject some sense into the discussion.

Admittedly, I'm not much of a ladies man but I have learned a few things. Confidence is often a major issue and like Monkfish's article points out, lack of it is a HUGE turn off. There's quite a difference between being a "nice guy" and being a "pushover". If she wanted a puppy dog to follow her around, she'd buy one. If she wants a relationship, she'll go for an independent person to share her time with. Stay true to yourself and be a nice guy, treat her with the respect she deserves, but if you're living on a steady diet of her boot polish expect that boot to kick you out the door shortly.

One thing I hate seeing is seemingly "nice guys" who have trouble with dating demonizing women in general for being stupid and making poor choices. This attitude does NOT HELP YOU MEET GIRLS. If you treat someone like an enemy, expect them to become your enemy. Look in the mirror and ask yourself what YOU'RE doing to improve the situation. Please don't make the rest of us look like misogynistic psychos because you have problems with women.

Edit: In the interests of not being discriminatory, you can substitute "she" with "she or he" if you'd like.

Also this.

And yet the article falls into the same mistake of demonizing nice guys in general for being stupid and making poor choices.

You only get to complain about nice guys' behaviour if you have explained in plain language to the guy(s) in question exactly what they are doing wrong and what they should do differently. Otherwise you're just bitching. [small](And I'm not using that word in a sexist way; "*****" is a unisex verb meaning "to talk disparagingly behind a person's back" and can apply equally to men or women.)[/small]

 

[rubyblue]

You only get to complain about nice guys' behaviour if you have explained in plain language to the guy(s) in question exactly what they are doing wrong and what they should do differently. Otherwise you're just bitching. [small](And I'm not using that word in a sexist way; "*****" is a unisex verb meaning "to talk disparagingly behind a person's back" and can apply equally to men or women.)[/small]

Really? Because that'll help their self-esteem. "Listen, John, you're a nice guy and all, but I don't want to date you because you dress like your mom still shops for you, you wear gym shoes to places that are not the gym, you mouth breathe, and to be honest, I just don't like your hairstyle. Sorry!"

I'm not saying that those are reasons I'd reject a guy. (I'm not saying they aren't, either.) But I think that in a lot of cases, not telling a guy what he's doing wrong is the best thing you can do for him, because maybe all the things you find annoying are things that the next girl will find endearing. And the last thing you want is for a guy to go changing who he is in the hopes that you'll change your mind about him.

 

[ShadowKatt]

Well, that's all pointless BS that everyone's always known. I used to fall into the 'nice guy' catagory, but then after several relationships jaded me I learned my lesson and became a much more independant person, and now I'm the one telling people No, especially since I learned how to be happy on my own and that I don't need anyone else in my life to be completely content.

And so I will counter both the 'bad guy' and 'nice guy' arguements with this: Women of the world, I don't need you, and I don't especially want you. Of course, there will always be exceptions to the rule, but that's how generalities work. Just assume that the target is you and that you're not the exception.

 

[Blueruler182]

I counter with this [http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml].

I can vouch for that...

Hey, maybe I can counter it with the study that said girls like nerdy guys more.

But that's instantly countered by my being eccentric...

But that's countered by the whole "maybe I can fix him" stance.

You know what? Everything has a counter. There's always going to be a study saying you can get more action than your opposite. I've run across a study to counter this study as well, and fifty to say I'm good and fifty to say I'm bad. So there.

 

[oktalist]

You only get to complain about nice guys' behaviour if you have explained in plain language to the guy(s) in question exactly what they are doing wrong and what they should do differently.

But I think that in a lot of cases, not telling a guy what he's doing wrong is the best thing you can do for him, because maybe all the things you find annoying are things that the next girl will find endearing.

Very good point. And by that same argument, this whole thread should shut the hell up because maybe all the things you[footnote]Not you personally.[/footnote] hate about NGs the next girl will find acceptable[footnote]I said acceptable instead of endearing, because NGs will grow out of their awkwardness and clingyness as the relationship matures, so if you were actually endeared to NGs then it wouldn't last. Acceptance is all it takes, to let a guy grow out of that phase naturally.[/footnote].

 

[Seizurebleak]

And yet the article falls into the same mistake of demonizing nice guys in general for being stupid and making poor choices.

You only get to complain about nice guys' behaviour if you have explained in plain language to the guy(s) in question exactly what they are doing wrong and what they should do differently. Otherwise you're just bitching. [small](And I'm not using that word in a sexist way; "*****" is a unisex verb meaning "to talk disparagingly behind a person's back" and can apply equally to men or women.)[/small]

Just to be clear: I don't mind calling people out on bad behavior. For example: "I don't like the stereotypical snotty girl because they act rude and pretentious despite me being polite and welcoming." In fact, lets make it more realistic: "I hate snotty bitches". Good call, I do too! I hate people like that in general, male or female.

My problem is comments like "Wow, women sure are stupid." or "Yeah, women are dumb and don't know what they want." Yes, some women are stupid and flaky, but don't take your rage out on the whole group because of a few bad apples (also remember that YOU might be the bad apple in some cases).


The article does generalize on "nice guys" although I think it very clearly defines the undesirable behaviors that many of this stereotype exhibits. The author also stated that the men writing in viewed themselves as "nice guys" as well, so she wasn't just throwing that term in out of the blue.

Another thing I think helps is being honest with yourself. If you're jealous of men who get laid every night and secretly (you don't have to admit it to US and ruin your nice guy rep) want the same thing, don't think of women uncaring sluts. Hold yourself to the same standard as you would your potential partner. If you just want to get laid (and I personally have no problems with that!) expect her to be just as shallow and don't complain if she doesn't like you for some superficial reason. If you're looking for something more, Sally Sleeparound isn't the girl for you anyways so be glad you're getting rejected and not played.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Confidence, a cheeky smile and the ability to treat a woman as (gasp!) an actual person with their own personality and attitudes will get a bloke a fair way in romancing the womenfolk.

Also, take a good hard look at yourself and your own behaviour, lads. While you're chasing some idealised bird who you've probably put on a pedastal so high the poor ***** probably needs breathing gear, how many REAL women, top quality birds, have you ignored because they didn't meet every box on your checklist? "Chase the Moon and trip over rocks," as my grandfather used to say.

This.

But I think this pedestal thing is just what happens when a guy fails in a relationship, and attributes his failure to not trying hard enough, so he thinks next time he must try harder, leading to this pedestal/worship thing. Not sure if I had a point with this; just trying to inject some sense into the discussion.

The pedestal isn't important to what I was saying. My point was while all these blokes are making all these plans on how to get the object of their obsession to 'realise' he's 'The One' they're probably (almost certainly, really) missing or completely ignoring other birds who are probably more suited to them anyway and would actually give them the time of day(and probably more - wayyyheyyyy).

Honestly, strip all the pretense away and it's no better than the guys who always strike out chasing gorgeous women but 'won't lower their standards' despite having several cute, quirky, awesomely cool birds totally crushing on them.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Does "bad guys" include rapists? If so, I don't think that's entirely sporting...there needs to be rules.

 

[BonsaiK]

http://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccoreader/37828-bad-guys-really-do-get-most-girls.html

Its very old so am sure some of you have read it. Just i dunno kind of intresting. Am not really suprised with how women are heh but i shouldnt say my oppinion or else am sure i'll get suspended. So its a good read.

Discussion?

Seen this before, many, many times. Of course it only tells part of the story.

The truth is that whether you are "nice" or "bad" makes not a lot of goddamn difference, really (because people tend to only find that stuff out about you after you've been seeing them for a while). The real story lurking behind this article is that confident guys are more successful than insecure guys. And a "bad guy" is more likely to be confident.

That doesn't mean that a nice guy can't be confident, too - just that generally, less of them are. A lot of nice guys are fairly insecure and tend to wander around thinking that the mere virtue of them being nice is all that it takes to impress someone, and then act like the world owes them something when this doesn't turn out to be the case for them.

Bad guys may get a few dates here and there, but nice guys who are also confident, not needy and secure within themselves absolutely clean up the fucking field. Did I mention that I'm dating a model, and she likes it that I'm not an asshole? She also likes it that I'm not clingy and I'm secure enough to let her do her own thing. In short, it's not the 'badness' you want to cultivate, it's the confidence. If you can be confident without being an arrogant jackass, you'll go far. Almost everyone of both sexes likes confidence in a partner, it's a highly sought-after quality, so much so that a lot of people will settle for a bit of assholism if the other person is also confident and emotionally secure.

 

[mrpenguinismyhomeboy]

I counter with this [http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml].

Well, that explains all my relationship problems.

I think I can do this now...

 

[Anarchemitis]

Why don't they like cheery chaps like us? Let's consider that for a moment.

 

[Bellvedere]

I counter with this [http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml].

Yes, I completely agree. Desperate doesn't look good on anyone.

The dark triad personality traits (narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy) aren't particularly attractive. These traits would indicate that the person would be more likely to want to engage in casual sex and there are plenty of women who also just want casual sex. These traits aren't exclusive to men.

Women want men that are attractive, confident and aren't complete bastards. Me personally like geeky guys with beards and enough self confidence that they'll actually have an interesting conversation with me. I don't have any problem asking a guy out if I really like them but if you become my friend then obviously you are delegated to friends zone. People will never think of you romantically or sexually if you never give any hint of it. Asking out someone you know has to have a bit of romantic pretext. Can't expect someone you have known for a few months to think of you as sexual if all your conversations have been about videogames and sci-fi shows even if they are a nerd and like other nerds.

What's sad, is that there is no such thing as a "secure" male. We just have different ways of hiding it.

Sure there is. If you believe that any girl would have to be crazy to want to date you then you're insecure. If you believe that if you're funny, if you can be charming and lovely, that you're worth dating then that's enough. It can be nerve wracking actually asking someone out. But acting cool about it isn't a momentous task if being rejected isn't going to crush your world. You can't just wait around hoping that somehow you and a person you like will just magically get together. Same goes for girls too. Can't just hope a guy is going to ask you out because it's his job.

 

[InsanityRequiem]

This kinda reminds me of what my 11th grade high school history teacher told me about relationships and how they are like squares and circles. I'm paraphrasing this though, since I don't remember well.

Men with square like features for their faces tend to be bad boys. The edgy, wild, out for myself type person that a good number of women will go head over heels for. Yet men with more roundish, circular-like features for their faces are more the nice, bit insecure, keep to self types that will tend to be ignored.

But the thing is, after a time, the squares will lose their 'bad boy' feel and attraction, and who's left? The circles. They will be there with the good jobs and successful lives and the women, seeing how these not so attractive circles are more successful, will find them more attractive and wish to be with them more, finding more stableness and happiness.

 

[Hurray Forums]

To the sweet nerdy guys of the world, I cry: "Just ask me out already! It won't kill you if I say no!"

You could just ask them yourself instead of waiting for them to ask. I mean, it's a bit hypocritical to say they should have the courage to go out on a limb when you won't take the same risk.

Anyway, I'm going to avoid the whole "nice guy versus bad guy" thing and just say that quantity shouldn't really be what you're after. I mean, if you're getting lots of women that means the one's you've gotten before weren't good enough to keep around and you had to move on. It's like the Conservation of Ninjutsu applied to relationships! One good relationship kicks the crap out of a hundred bad ones.

 

[Yureina]

To the sweet nerdy guys of the world, I cry: "Just ask me out already! It won't kill you if I say no!"

You could just ask them yourself instead of waiting for them to ask. I mean, it's a bit hypocritical to say they should have the courage to go out on a limb when you won't take the same risk.

Agreed. In this present age where things are (on the surface) starting to become more equal between the sexes, the burden of the acceptance/rejection game still seems very much exclusive to males, with a few exceptions. It might not really be my problem per se, but that is one of many things about relationships that just gets on my nerves.

 

[Miumaru]

Well, do you want the MOST girls? Or the BEST girls? In the end you should only need one girl.

 

[Booze Zombie]

These traits may hang around, but that does not make them any more agreeable.
I am nice to people because I choose to be, I can not be nice, but I choose to be nice.

Being nasty would get me laid? I don't really care.

 

[JJMUG]

To the sweet nerdy guys of the world, I cry: "Just ask me out already! It won't kill you if I say no!"

The old Pot calling the kettle black play huh. I think the major league Baseball Commissioner used that last.

Personally i never understood completing a race you can never win.

 

[Gunner_Guardian]

http://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccoreader/37828-bad-guys-really-do-get-most-girls.html

Its very old so am sure some of you have read it. Just i dunno kind of intresting. Am not really suprised with how women are heh but i shouldnt say my oppinion or else am sure i'll get suspended. So its a good read.

Discussion?

Seen this before, many, many times. Of course it only tells part of the story.

The truth is that whether you are "nice" or "bad" makes not a lot of goddamn difference, really (because people tend to only find that stuff out about you after you've been seeing them for a while). The real story lurking behind this article is that confident guys are more successful than insecure guys. And a "bad guy" is more likely to be confident.

That doesn't mean that a nice guy can't be confident, too - just that generally, less of them are. A lot of nice guys are fairly insecure and tend to wander around thinking that the mere virtue of them being nice is all that it takes to impress someone, and then act like the world owes them something when this doesn't turn out to be the case for them.

Bad guys may get a few dates here and there, but nice guys who are also confident, not needy and secure within themselves absolutely clean up the fucking field. Did I mention that I'm dating a model, and she likes it that I'm not an asshole? She also likes it that I'm not clingy and I'm secure enough to let her do her own thing. In short, it's not the 'badness' you want to cultivate, it's the confidence. If you can be confident without being an arrogant jackass, you'll go far. Almost everyone of both sexes likes confidence in a partner, it's a highly sought-after quality, so much so that a lot of people will settle for a bit of assholism if the other person is also confident and emotionally secure.

Thank you, everyone listen to this man.

This isn't about being an asshole to being a nice guy. It's more of a confidence issue.

I went from insecure to confident (thanks to some helpful female friends) and I noticed an almost instant change on how attractive, women saw me as.