Batman Fans vs Superman Fans

[Parasondox]

Hello fellow Escapist.

With the recent news of Ben Affleck being the new Batman, there has been a lot of negative fan back lash mostly from die hard Dark Knight/Nolan fans. To add to that with Man of Steel not favouring many Superman fans what exactly is the problem here? Certain Batman fans can't move on from the Nolan trilogy and I want to know why? Nolan says he has done all he wanted to do with that super hero and Bale said, and I respect him for this, he doesn't feel up for doing the role again no matter the money thrown at him. Kinda similar with Superman fans. I most hear how no one can match Christopher Reeves but really should we move on from those movies and start something new that people won't pick and nit about. Now Man of Steel 2 will be a Superman vs Batman movie which I am personally upset about because this was meant to be a Superman story not Batman, who we know will just overshadow in the movie.

Main question is for both Batman Fans and Superman fans, what are your thoughts on all of the press and news and do you really think Man of Steel 2 would be a good idea with the whole Superman vs Batman storyline?

Also to add has any one of you moved on from the past yet with the Nolan trilogy and willing to accept the new and has any Superman fans been in favour of a new direction of Clark Kent?

 

[Lieju]

I'm not looking forward to this. I'm not a fan of Batman as a character, I'm a fan of his Rogue's gallery.

Plus while I enjoyed the Nolan movies, I'd like to see something totally different now, something more lighthearted and 'camp' and cartoonish and colourful.
This just seems like it will be trying to ape Nolan's take on the character (based on how Man of Steel turned out) but without Nolan, who at least did good job.

Superman I don't care about one way or another.

 

[Timotei]

I could care less about which superheros are in the movie and more about the fact that Zack "Suckerpunch is about female empowerment" Snyder is directing it. I can tell you now it's most likely going to be disastrous.

Keep in mind they're going to introduce a new incarnation of a character without delving into that particular character's backstory or showing their particular motivation or reason for being who thy are. Yes, we all know batman's backstory, but you can't drop someone from another series into a new one with a new incarnation without having to explain why they are who they are. The fact this wasn't brought up during the MoS2 press release leads me to believe Zack Snyder doesn't know what makes superhero films interesting.

 

[zylgp]

The real problem is that DC have been playing catch up with The Avengers for years now; they haven't even been able to incorporate a backstory from any of their film franchises since 2008 for a Justice League movie (Dark Knight series seems to be standalone and had a concluding ending meaning they couldn't tie that in with a Justice League, unless there is something in Man of Steel which I haven't personally seen yet- if wrong please be gentle ). From a big producer perspective the best way now to kick the Justice League project off is to have its 2 most famous and well known characters in a single movie; the fact that its Batman vs Superman isn't too far-fetched given that its a scenario that has happened multiple times in the comics (and they want it to be catchy to grab attention). As little else has been released by DC apart from Batman vs Superman I'm keeping an eye open on this project because without an external force I don't see them clashing from the get-go (though neither am I expecting them to gel on first sight either).

As for your final question;, I personally think its still too soon for them to be talking about revamping Batman. I reckon this movie might have served better to fully introduce Luthor and Lexcorp and just have some hints about things going down with Wayne Enterprise with a cameo of Bruce Wayne rather than have the Bat come in his full glory (or keep appearances off screen) which could be fleshed out on a standalone movie later on.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

You know what? I don't even care anymore. There have been way more bad batman actors than good ones, so it's not like another crappy one is going to ruin the character.

 

[Link_to_Future]

I was past the Nolan Trilogy about half way though TDKR. I need a new direction beyond the "hay guise we're srs even if the plot makes no Damn sense" of that particular film.

But all in all, I'm not really happy that the Man of Steel sequel is a crossover at all. I mean, it could maybe turn out to be awesome and I'm slowly warming to the idea that Affleck could be a good addition to the franchise but having it be Batman vs. Superman strikes me as nothing more than pandering.

So I'm pessimistic but open to the possibility that it could be ok.

 

[Kolby Jack]

I like Ben Affleck. Argo was a fantastic movie. I also liked Man of Steel, and I'm a big Superman fan. That said, I can see why some people didn't like it. No big deal.

As for the superman/batman idea... We'll see. That's all I can say about my feelings towards it. On the one hand, there is the very prevalent risk of batman overshadowing the whole thing and I don't like the idea of Batman being in what is supposed to be a Superman story. On the other hand, HOLY SHIT A SUPERMAN/BATMAN TEAM-UP MOVIE?!?! Sweeeeeeeeet!!!! Some of my favorite stories are Superman/Batman stories, and I've always loved the dynamic the two characters have with each other.

So really, it could be stupid awesome, or it could be stupid. There's just no way to tell how the chips will fall at this point. So I say again... We'll see.

 

[Kenbo Slice]

I was past the Nolan Trilogy about half way though TDKR. I need a new direction beyond the "hay guise we're srs even if the plot makes no Damn sense" of that particular film.

Ugh, I know that feel. I wanted to walk out about halfway through it. It was a huge waste of money and time.

OT: I'm a bit indifferent on Batfleck, but I think this Superman/Batman film was doomed from the get-go..


I'm still hopeful for a Flash movie though.

 

[shrekfan246]

Plus while I enjoyed the Nolan movies, I'd like to see something totally different now, something more lighthearted and 'camp' and cartoonish and colourful.

Well, there are two other Batman films you could watch for that... of course, everyone seems to absolutely revile them for completely ruining everything about the Batman universe or something.

OT: Apart from Daredevil, I don't really have much exposure to Ben Affleck's work, especially newer stuff, so... I have no real opinion on it. But since I'm one of the approximately seven people who likes Daredevil, I guess I just have a high tolerance for "shitty" superhero films.

I liked Man of Steel as well, as a person who's never really been interested in anything Superman before.

On the other hand, Superman versus Batman in the Man of Steel universe sounds like an incredibly stupid idea. Not that Superman versus Batman ever isn't a stupid idea, since a flick from one could potentially shatter every bone in the other's body, but in an actual film format the plot would have to be monumentally hamfisted if it doesn't turn into a stereotypical "these two people start out as rivals and then discover they're superheroes that have to team up to defeat a greater threat!" story, because seriously, how do you contrive a plot that pits a morally righteous superhero up against a morally righteous vigilante?

Unless it's a different take on film-Batman than we've seen before.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm not looking forward to this. I'm not a fan of Batman as a character, I'm a fan of his Rogue's gallery.

Yeah, second that, though I like the Bat-Family. Just make a Birds of Prey movie, the decent pre-52 BoP.

 

[MegaManOfNumbers]

I just don't understand why people are up in arms about Ben Affleck being Batman. He certainly looks the part; its not like he's a bad actor, considering he won some pretty praiseworthy awards as of recent I'd actually assume the contrary. Now, the prospect of Batman playing a star role in the next Man of Steel seems kind of scary. We all know why this is happening, WB needs to compete with Avengers 2 and their biggest comic book film that summer is a sequel to one of the more controversial superhero films of recent memory. So they need an icon that will surely draw in A fanbase. Whether or not it is the right one won't matter to them so long as they have a way to fight GODDAMN Ultron. And who better than the only superhero just as profitable as the Avengers, Batman. The scary part is that this might inevitably overshadow Supes himself, what many consider the least likable part of MoS (I disagree though). I personally really was excited for MoS not because Superman is back, but that there would be a chance this film might spark my interest in the Modern Age Superman mythos. The possibility that point may be undone by Batman could consequentially diminish my interest in the theoretical MoS series. And keep in mind this is from a guy who not only loves Batman more than Superman, but also bought the Dark Knight Trilogy, watched the original DC animated series, have both the Arkham games, and actually liked the Man of Steel film.

 

[Lieju]

Plus while I enjoyed the Nolan movies, I'd like to see something totally different now, something more lighthearted and 'camp' and cartoonish and colourful.

Well, there are two other Batman films you could watch for that... of course, everyone seems to absolutely revile them for completely ruining everything about the Batman universe or something.

Those movies weren't bad for being camp and colourful, they were bad for having shitty scripts and weird directing choices. (Jim Carrey could have made a GREAT Riddler, but they made him too hyper all the time.)
If I want a GOOD fun Batman-movie, I need to go to year 1966...

Not that Superman versus Batman ever isn't a stupid idea, since a flick from one could potentially shatter every bone in the other's body,

Depends on how strong you make your incarnation of Superman, and what kind of technology Batman will have on his disposal. Hasn't Lex Luthor gone against Superman in a mech-suit?

And you could always just write Batman as smarter, and have the story be about their differing ideologies, law vs vigilantism, but pulling those off would require actual thought and effort. Not just mindless action and punching.

I'm guessing Batman will have some overly-convoluted plan we know nothing about until every 'dramatic' reveal that makes the plot confused and dumb if you stop to think about it.

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

Superman and Batman has always been a mixed bag in terms of a team-up.

There have been great stories revolving around the two. Their first crossover in the DCAU comes to mind. However, writers have to bend over backwards to make up clever reasons why Batman, just a normal human, is an asset in any battle involving Superman. Often, they don't tending to make Superman an idiot for the sake of the story.

Take Injustice, for example. Even with the "magic nanomachines," allowing for Batman to live through joker's bazooka to the face, they still avoided a Superman and Batman fight.

Now, without the green rock for an easy weakness, what can Batman really offer? We saw the fight, it took atleast an artillery shell to even STUN another Kryptonian, and they were able to wreck the entire city. What is the guy dressed up as a Bat really going to do?

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

Plus while I enjoyed the Nolan movies, I'd like to see something totally different now, something more lighthearted and 'camp' and cartoonish and colourful.

Well, there are two other Batman films you could watch for that... of course, everyone seems to absolutely revile them for completely ruining everything about the Batman universe or something.

Those movies weren't bad for being camp and colourful, they were bad for having shitty scripts and weird directing choices. (Jim Carrey could have made a GREAT Riddler, but they made him too hyper all the time.)
If I want a GOOD fun Batman-movie, I need to go to year 1966...

Not that Superman versus Batman ever isn't a stupid idea, since a flick from one could potentially shatter every bone in the other's body,

Depends on how strong you make your incarnation of Superman, and what kind of technology Batman will have on his disposal. Hasn't Lex Luthor gone against Superman in a mech-suit?

And you could always just write Batman as smarter, and have the story be about their differing ideologies, law vs vigilantism, but pulling those off would require actual thought and effort. Not just mindless action and punching.

I'm guessing Batman will have some overly-convoluted plan we know nothing about until every 'dramatic' reveal that makes the plot confused and dumb if you stop to think about it.

Spoiler: In the comics, this is Supermans official strength

Lex Luthor has only ever managed to lay a finger on Superman in the mech suit because A. Kryptonite and B. Superman is REALLY holding back so people don't die (including Lex). No matter how advanced Batman's tech is, Superman has access to Kryptonian technology. He actually has stated he could improve most of Bruce's tech, but doesn't want to hurt Batman's feelings.

The DCAU, which had really pulled back on Supe's power level,Superman punched Darksied through half of Metropolis. Superman could easily kill Batman from orbit. What can Batman do in return? Get very, VERY close to him and hold up the Green rock? Don't you think Superman will see that a mile away (both metaphorically and literally).

 

[SonicWaffle]

Main question is for both Batman Fans and Superman fans, what are your thoughts on all of the press and news and do you really think Man of Steel 2 would be a good idea with the whole Superman vs Batman storyline?

Ha.

Ahaha.

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha.

No. It's a fucking terrible idea. Man of Steel was dogshit, managing to make a movie about a character only superficially similar to Superman, why would they do Batman any differently? I can wholly believe they'll make it a "versus" movie - they've already proven they don't get the characters, why not just announce they don't get the point of their relationship and interactions as well?

Also to add has any one of you moved on from the past yet with the Nolan trilogy and willing to accept the new and has any Superman fans been in favour of a new direction of Clark Kent?

The Nolan trilogy is hardly the be-all-end-all of moviemaking. It had one decent film, one great film and one shit film. Even the better ones weren't very good as Batman films. After the nosedive it took in TDKR, why would anyone want that back?

As for the Superman movies, why would I be in favour of a "new direction" which is basically saying "this is not Superman"? He's angsty, destructive, conflicted; he's basically what comic book writers of the 90's thought was cool. If your movie has managed to make fucking Superman into a boring character, you might as well give up on this whole Hollywood business.

EDIT: ...woo, I'm apparently quite angry today. Not enough sleep. Normally I try not to be so in-your-face about shitty movies, since I know some people enjoy them anyway

 

[SonicWaffle]

Spoiler: In the comics, this is Supermans official strength

Unless I'm very much mistaken, those panels are from All Star Superman, which is both outside of main continuity and based around the Silver Age Superman. IIRC it was about him becoming exponentially more and more powerful, even more so than the standard Silver Age version of the character. SAS, as he shall be called, had much higher (and more varied) power levels as the plot demanded, which weren't carried over into the modern (pre-New 52, I don't know or frankly care what's the status since the reboot) Superman.

As for the idea of a Batman/Superman fight, it is inherently uninteresting. It's dull. Who cares? What's interesting about these character is why they don't fight. It their interplay as characters; Batman has Kryptonite because Superman genuinely believes that given enough time to plan and the right tools, Batman could stop him. He also believes that Batman is the only person he can trust with such a weapon. Despite their conflicting ideologies, perspective, approaches and personalities, they still count one another as the best of friends.

You want a good movie? Make it about those two guys bouncing off one another rather than just punching one another.

 

[shootthebandit]

Everyone seems to be forgetting that this guy is going to be lex luthor. Anyone can play a hero, its a pretty bland one dimensional character BUT the villians are the ones who stand out. Terrence stamp as the original general zod and heath ledger/jack nicholson as the joker (to name but a few). Sure we remember the title characters too but its the villians that stand out. Give bryan cranston enough screen time and the same creativity he had with walter white and i can garuntee viewers will be like "batman and superman who?"

 

[Bruce]

I wasn't really a fan of Nolan's Batman. Nolan essentially forgot the core of the character is as The Detective, thus losing a lot of what makes the Batman mythos good. In all three Batman movies Batman doesn't figure out who the villain is or what their scheme is right up until the villain pops up and says "Yeah, I'm the bad guy and this is my plan."

It is a bit like how Man of Steel forgot all the ideals that Superman was supposed to be about and tried to turn him into an X-Men character.

 

[Lieju]

Spoiler: In the comics, this is Supermans official strength

And I wasn't talking about comics. (Where in his first incarnation he could lift cars, and that was it.)

I'm talking about a new continuity, made for the movies where you could just redefine his strength, or explain he doesn't know yet how to use them properly. (Like in Smallville.)

Comics canon is such a mess I don't know how anyone can make any 'offical' statements about Superman's power-level.

 

[Trek1701a]

I think that Batman is more reliant on what is in the script then who is in the suit. So I think Affleck will do fine in the role. As for how I think the character will be in the next film, since a good portion of the people in control are the same that was in control of the Dark Knight series, I would expect not so much of a change from him.

However, for Superman, I'm not one that is so beholden to Christopher Reeve or his characterization, although Man of Steel's Superman (Not Henry Cavill, the script/director) just got the core of the character wrong on so many levels. They have a lot of work to do to get people like me on board for the sequel.

If the movie is something akin to the rumored straightening out of Superman, Batman might not be the best choice, Wonder Woman would have probably been a better choice. She isn't human, so she can speak to his alieness. And has similar power levels, so she can teach him how to learn to moderate them and not destroy everything and/or everyone. Plus, you can play the ove triangle a bit where Clark/Superman is falling for Lois due to her representing a normal human life, whereas, he is falling for Wonder Woman due to her knowing what it is like to be similar to him and knows that he can be truly himself with her.

I feel it is very odd that Warner Bros. has an animation department that gets the characters so right, yet the movie department gets them so wrong.