Because of The Hunger Games, I think we're ready for a Wonder Woman movie

[Something Amyss]

Wonder Woman is insanely hard to market, I'm afraid. Not even because she's a woman, but because she's just... kind of an odd superhero that most people can't place too well.

She's also not that well written most of the time. She seems to lack identity in most of the comics I've read, which puts her at a disadvantage.

Envoy with a warrior ethos from a superior society to the mortal world, who occasionally has to punch gods in the fucking face.

The point being, I'm not sure you're going to get that across easily to people.

I think that title goes to "Rosie the Riveter"

A little off topic, but this line of discussion made me think of some dialogue:

GIL: We do what we do. We make rock 'n' roll. Hendrix rocked Woodstock with "The Star Spangled banner."

BRIAN: That's true.

GIL: No one saw it coming. It's a classic now. He turned it into an anthem.

LANE: It's "The Star Spangled Banner." It was kind of already an anthem.

GIL: Thanks to Hendrix.

ZACH: I'm confused.

BRIAN: So am I.

I'd be interested to see how a Wonder Woman movie fared. I think the Hunger Games argument has at least some merit, although that property had a big ol' lucrative fanbase ready to go thanks to the books. I don't know if WW has that.

But they rushed out like half a dozen movies to cash in on The Hunger Games like, ten seconds after Catching Fire got attention.

Surely they could run with that with WW in some way.

If you reply that she is strong/capable/independent then appartenly all it takes to make a good female character is to take stereotypically masculine traits and give them to a woman (which is if that's what you think, you're doing it wrong)

Catnap had none of those qualities. Well, maybe independence. She's weak and heavily dependent. Maybe not in the movies, but definitely in the books. Absolutely. She has almost no motivation when not being prodded along by a man, be it her father, her lover, her surrogate father, or her fake lover. She is weak of character and only strong of will when the plot demands it, otherwise, she's putty.

Catnap is more a catalyst than a character. And while that's perfect for people to imprint on, it doesn't give her any strength of definition. But even then, to demand more from her would be to offer up a double standard, as many male YA books feature similar characters and nobody questions their validity.

However, I didn't know that these were male (or even "stereotypically masculine") traits. Are you seriously attesting that to have truly feminine characters they need to stand out despite being not strong, not independent, and not capable? Jesus, I'm not even sure how that would work if you are.

 

[Something Amyss]

you know just today I read a quote from a celebrity who said she wasn't a feminists because "she loved men" heeeeh eeeeh

You think that's bad? I just watched a video response the other day to a dude who said homosexuals were all inherently sexist because gays hate women and lesbians hate men. HE then likened this to the feminazi movement of the 70s (his words).

Now, keeping in mind my dad was a feminist in the 70s, I don't know how to respond except:

 

[Vault101]

snip

while mysogany and misandry amongst gay people is definetly a thing....

thats..really stupid....you hate people you aren't sexually interested in? does that mean straight people are sexist? what?

it really does say something about our society when the idea of women being eaqual means they HATE men...like...you know...don't hurt our feelings ladies...

 

[jademunky]

Problem is that Wonder Woman is just not that interesting a character. I know that this will never happen but DC has a lot of great female characters that would probably make for a much better film.

Seriously, I would love a movie where Renee Montoya or better yet Oracle were the main character. (is Barbara Gordon even Oracle anymore?)


Unless.......... they keep all that wonderfully weird Wonder Woman stuff from the golden age of comics. Then I would watch but I would imagine that 2 hours of near-bondage-pron might be a little tough to sell to the average moviegoer.

 

[JimB]

Envoy with a warrior ethos from a superior society to the mortal world, who occasionally has to punch gods in the fucking face.

The point being, I'm not sure you're going to get that across easily to people.

The only part of that Thor didn't do is the protagonist coming to Earth willingly.

Is Barbara Gordon even Oracle anymore?

Batgirl.

 

[Vault101]

Seriously, I would love a movie where Renee Montoya or better yet Oracle were the main character. (is Barbara Gordon even Oracle anymore?)
.

nope....she got better....

I don't see what people have against Wonder Woman...is she any less of a charachter than Batman?

Is Barbara Gordon even Oracle anymore?

Batgirl.

was that a correction or an answer?

 

[Burnouts3s3]

Seriously, I would love a movie where Renee Montoya or better yet Oracle were the main character. (is Barbara Gordon even Oracle anymore?)

My only problem with that is we're going back to the Batman universe in order to expand our roster. It seems like every DC movie revolves around Batman or Superman. Even Watchmen had to take years to make.

 

[jademunky]

Is Barbara Gordon even Oracle anymore?

Batgirl.

Aw nuts.

Oh well, I guess if Batman got over his paralysis in less than a year then its probably a good thing to do the same to Babs. (after a quarter-century!)

 

[jademunky]

My only problem with that is we're going back to the Batman universe in order to expand our roster. It seems like every DC movie revolves around Batman or Superman. Even Watchmen had to take years to make.

That is true, but cinema has never actually tried digging very deep into the extended bat-family. Even Robin gets treated as a bit of a Pariah. (although we mostly have Joel Schumacher to blame for that)

Honestly, in my totally subjective opinion, the DC universe tends to be more enjoyable when it stays away from the more cosmic-godlike characters and focuses on the smaller stuff. Unless, of course, Grant Morrison is doing the writing.

 

[JimB]

Oh well, I guess if Batman got over his paralysis in less than a year then its probably a good thing to do the same to Babs. (after a quarter-century!)

In the current continuity, she was shot and paralyzed by the Joker, but it all happened off-screen in her backstory. Her paralysis only lasted...eh, I forget, but it was somewhere between six months and two years. She never spent any time as Oracle.

 

[Something Amyss]

while mysogany and misandry amongst gay people is definetly a thing....

thats..really stupid....you hate people you aren't sexually interested in? does that mean straight people are sexist? what?

it really does say something about our society when the idea of women being eaqual means they HATE men...like...you know...don't hurt our feelings ladies...

Apparently, it's totes different because ponies heterosexuals aren't denying the natural use of the non-preferred gender. Or ponies.

I actually wish I was making this up, but....

Here's a response video (it's either in this or the next) as I'd rather not give the original guy any more page views if possible:

The only part of that Thor didn't do is the protagonist coming to Earth willingly.

As funny as I thought the Thor comparison was the first fifty times I saw that comic today, Thor is more easily summarised in "God of Thunder." you might even throw in "Ass-kicking" if you're nasty. Just as you don't even need "strange visitor from another planet" to encapsulate Superman.

I get that Thor, a B-Lister in the Marvel Universe, should be a harder sell than one of the big three in DC, but you start with a company that can barely market one of them well at a time and you end with a more muddled concept in terms of marketing, and it's a problem. And while we're talking about Marvel's cinematic capabilities vs DC's, keep in mind this has nothing to do with the Double Double U being a woman. I think Marvel could market a Squirrel Girl movie if they tried. They took a bunch of also-rans and made a multi-million dollar franchise out of them. DC has given us Emo Superman, Batfleck (which may not suck, but certainly hasn't helped marketing or PR), and the Green Lantern movie everyone wants to forget (Except me). I'm betting Marvel could take almost any woman on its roster and give her a movie, which brings me to the question: why haven't they?

Honestly, I'd have more hopes for any movie they did.

I don't see what people have against Wonder Woman...is she any less of a charachter than Batman?

She's more of a character, I'd say, but I don't think she's as easy to market. Batman's straightforward and nuanced: he is the terror that flaps in the night. He is the bread that lands butter-side down. He is Darkwin....Errr....

was that a correction or an answer?

Technically, it's both. Oracle is now Batgirl again. >.>

 

[Something Amyss]

Oh well, I guess if Batman got over his paralysis in less than a year then its probably a good thing to do the same to Babs. (after a quarter-century!)

In the current continuity, she was shot and paralyzed by the Joker, but it all happened off-screen in her backstory. Her paralysis only lasted...eh, I forget, but it was somewhere between six months and two years. She never spent any time as Oracle.

The new 52 continuity is confusing. I assumed she had been Oracle off-screen because the way she referenced it makes it sound like they kept the old continuity (Which they sometimes have done)

 

[jademunky]

I don't see what people have against Wonder Woman...is she any less of a charachter than Batman?

Well no, but I think a major difference between the two is that there is a certain consistency in Batman's character that the writers have agreed upon over the years. Yes Bat-Bale is a very different hero than the Adam West Batman but both are at their core the Gun-hating, gadget-loving detective out to protect the citizens of gotham with a strict "no killing" policy.

Wonder Woman seems to vary a bit much in terms of personality depending on the writer. (although that scene leading up to infinite crisis where she does "something" that totally alienates her from the justice league is pretty awesome)

 

[jademunky]

Oh well, I guess if Batman got over his paralysis in less than a year then its probably a good thing to do the same to Babs. (after a quarter-century!)

In the current continuity, she was shot and paralyzed by the Joker, but it all happened off-screen in her backstory. Her paralysis only lasted...eh, I forget, but it was somewhere between six months and two years. She never spent any time as Oracle.

Damn you DC comics!!! I take a break to buy a house and start a family and you reboot your entire continuity!?

 

[Zhukov]

I have no idea if I'd actually enjoy the movie itself. Not really familiar. I watched an animated WW movie once. It was... not horrible I guess.

Pretty much. It's watchable, but I'd really love to find and smack whoever wrote the feminism scenes:

Wonder Woman: All men are sexist! That is why I dislike you, Steve Trevor!
Steve Trevor: Hey! That's sexist against men! You are as sexist as you condemn me for being!
Wonder Woman: You're right! I am chastened! I now wish to improve myself by accepting and loving men!

I'm not saying whoever wrote that needs a beating, but one open palm upside the head is perfectly appropriate.

My memory may be unreliable, but I don't think it was quite that bad.

It took the sledgehammer approach to character development, but I think their heart was in the right place.

[snip]

arent they making a movie about marshmellows?

[i/]fucking marshmellows....[/i]

Well... marshmellows do have a damn big established fanbase.

It's brilliant.

Also since when did Katniss become some beacon of great female characters? If you reply that she is strong/capable/independent then appartenly all it takes to make a good female character is to take stereotypically masculine traits and give them to a woman (which is if that's what you think, you're doing it wrong)

Most standard heroic traits are also ideal masculine traits. Strength, courage, martial prowess, determination, leadership etc etc.

Whether you like Katniss or think she's a good character is up to you. Personally I think she was pretty 'meh'. (At least in the films, never read the books.) Either way, she's useful in this context because she was a female lead who is capable of violence in a film that was financially successful.

I'd be interested to see how a Wonder Woman movie fared. I think the Hunger Games argument has at least some merit, although that property had a big ol' lucrative fanbase ready to go thanks to the books. I don't know if WW has that.

But they rushed out like half a dozen movies to cash in on The Hunger Games like, ten seconds after Catching Fire got attention.

Oh? I wasn't aware of that.

Which movies were they? Were any of them any good? How did they fare?

 

[JimB]

I get that Thor, a B-Lister in the Marvel Universe, should be a harder sell than one of the big three in DC, but you start with a company that can barely market one of them well at a time and you end with a more muddled concept in terms of marketing, and it's a problem.

If you want to say DC is currently incapable of doing the character justice, then that's fine. I totally agree. Just about everything I've read or seen her in since Morrison's run on JLA has been a complete fucking abortion. I just think it's unfair and untrue to say the problem is with the character being too complex or not having a hook or whatever else that would be the fault of the material rather than the apologists in charge of DC right now.

I assumed she had been Oracle off-screen because the way she referenced it makes it sound like they kept the old continuity (which they sometimes have done).

I stopped reading the book about a year and a half in, whatever issue was about the Joker kidnapping Batgirl's mom and holding her hostage in a roller rink, but as of that point, there was never a mention of her being Oracle or even using a computer. It was all about her learning how to punch bad guys again. If my information is out of date, then I'll apologize.

 

[Vault101]

Oh? I wasn't aware of that.

Which movies were they? Were any of them any good? How did they fare?

The Host comes to mind...that was just bad

then theres the more obvious Divergent which looks "meh" to me BUT it make money....(I think)

I stopped reading the book about a year and a half in, whatever issue was about the Joker kidnapping Batgirl's mom and holding her hostage in a roller rink, but as of that point, there was never a mention of her being Oracle or even using a computer. It was all about her learning how to punch bad guys again. If my information is out of date, then I'll apologize.

yeah it felt like they retconned oracle completly out

 

[JimB]

Damn you DC comics!!! I take a break to buy a house and start a family and you reboot your entire continuity!?

Yep. It's a pretty contemptible product line. I am the only person I know who is still reading any DC books, and even I'm only reading Aquaman.

Wonder Woman: All men are sexist! That is why I dislike you, Steve Trevor!
Steve Trevor: Hey! That's sexist against men! You are as sexist as you condemn me for being!
Wonder Woman: You're right! I am chastened! I now wish to improve myself by accepting and loving men!

My memory may be unreliable, but I don't think it was quite that bad.

No. As I said earlier in the thread, I exaggerated a bit for comedic effect. Still pretty fucking close, though.

It took the sledgehammer approach to character development, but I think their heart was in the right place.

I'd agree with that, but while there are situations in which I will see a person's heart being in the right place and forgive them for having their brain in the wrong place, this isn't one of those. It's too dumb.

 

[jademunky]

I am the only person I know who is still reading any DC books, and even I'm only reading Aquaman.

Probably the first time that sentence has ever been uttered.

I kid.

 

[JimB]

I am the only person I know who is still reading any DC books, and even I'm only reading Aquaman.

Probably the first time that sentence has ever been uttered.

I kid.

Hey, I'm as surprised as anyone. When Geoff Johns was writing the book, Aquaman was a goddamned king; a king in exile, sure, but regal authority and dignity were emanating from him visibly like light. Even a lifelong American like me with a bone-deep disdain for monarchy as a system of government had to sit up and take notice when, say, a bank robber would shoot him in the face and Aquaman would just glare back, seemingly more offended by the indignity than angered at the attack that only drew a shallow scratch across his cheek anyway. Artist Ivan Reis probably deserves most of the credit, but Johns still wrote him as a strong-willed leader with immense dignity and a noblesse oblige that actually seemed appropriate rather than condescending.

When Johns left and the new guy took over (I forget his name), Aquaman returned to his throne and has actually lost a lot of that semi-divine awe. He's more of a...okay, I'll just say it, more of a fish out of water now, a man ill-equipped to lead his people and doing the best he can, which isn't very good because he's focusing way too much on superheroing around. There is a very obvious tragedy coming up on the horizon, probably a coup and a civil war, but Aquaman can't see it because he's too busy living the wrong life right now. The shift in tone is jarring as fuck, but if you treat the Johns run and the current run like separate books so you can ignore that gear-stripping downshift, they're pretty good.