Believing women or actually helping them? (democratic debate)

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Silent Protagonist said:
tstorm823 said:
trunkage said:
Just wanted to deal with this separately. When did the left take the racial purity pill from conservatives? She was 1/138th Cherokee or something right? Why is her blood/ DNA important? Shouldn't the beliefs and traditions determine if she's Cherokee? (As far as I understand, she fails there too, so you can get her on that.) Is this like calling Obama the first black president when he's half black and white? Because he's not full white, he automatically defaults to black?

It almost makes me believe tstorm when he calls liberals the real racists. But then Conservatives always jump on that bandwagon, usually leading such race derived charges
To defend seanchaidh, I don't think blood was actually mentioned. That claim could have been about heritage from the get-go.

To clarify my own positions, I don't think Democrats are the real racists, I just don't buy the spin that there is a fixed amount of racists in America that 50 years ago all decided to swap parties. I think there are fewer real racists than there used to be, but I don't think Democrats are going to stop maligning all Republicans as racist until black Americans start voting red again.

The only time I would claim Democrats were the real racists is with Lyndon Johnson in 1964, where the racist candidate won in part by claiming his opponent was a racist.
Republicans also definitely don't have a monopoly on racism. There unfortunately no shortage of examples of times some aspect of progressive ideology, or at least people claiming to fight in the name of it, somehow comes full circle to ironically call for racist practices their predecessors fought so hard to tear down. That's usually the sort of thing people are referring to when they claim the Democrats/Left/SJWs or whatever other label used to stand in for the "them" in us vs them thinking are the real racists. It's frustrating because as a result of this it is very difficult to call out those bigoted ideas or practices without coming across as an apologist for Republicans or more traditional forms of racism because people start barking about dog whistles and what not
Yeah it's those types of people who treat groups as monoliths and call people race or sex traitors for thinking differently than the "agreed upon thought". Can't a black dude just be greedy? Must everything he does be a reflection into the entire group? I don't think nonracists think like that lol.

There was this group of scientists who were submitting purposefully absurd papers for publishing in feminist studies to show how insane it is and one of those was a paper taken straight out of Hitler's book where they replaced every mention of "jew" with "man" and that got accepted, so there's definitely a whole lot of bigotry going on there lol.
 

Satinavian

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SupahEwok said:
Mixed white/black ancestry has a problematic history. You've got the history of white slave owners raping their slaves, for a start. Then you've got the fact that those of mixed race (called such things as "mulattos" or "quadroons") were pretty much treated as badly as "pure" blacks. And lastly, unless they're relatively recent immigrants, genetics studies show that the average African American is on average around 20% European. Basically, the average black person has white ancestry somewhere. Yet in the heydays of racial purity, we treated even majority white African Americans as black, for the purpose of discrimination.
But that is pretty much a unique US approach. Most of the world scraches its head about what counts as black there. And while racism does exist elsewhere, the lines tend to be drawn quite differently.
 
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trunkage said:
Seanchaidh said:
She's not Cherokee.
Just wanted to deal with this separately. When did the left take the racial purity pill from conservatives? She was 1/138th Cherokee or something right? Why is her blood/ DNA important? Shouldn't the beliefs and traditions determine if she's Cherokee? (As far as I understand, she fails there too, so you can get her on that.) Is this like calling Obama the first black president when he's half black and white? Because he's not full white, he automatically defaults to black?

It almost makes me believe tstorm when he calls liberals the real racists. But then Conservatives always jump on that bandwagon, usually leading such race derived charges
Literally, the reason people get so bent out of shape over it is the idea that a white woman used claimed to be Native American because it feels like a kind of exploitation [https://www.vox.com/2018/10/16/17983250/elizabeth-warren-bar-application-american-indian-dna].

Nearly a week after Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) apologized to the Cherokee Nation for a controversial DNA test that suggested she had Native American heritage, a new report has emerged that Warren identified as American Indian in the 1980s.

Warren wrote she was American Indian in a 1986 registration card she filled out for the State Bar of Texas, according to a report from the Washington Post?s Annie Linskey and Amy Gardner. Gardner tweeted out a picture of the original form. Warren filled out the card after she was admitted to the bar, the Post reported. The form says information about her ethnicity was being gathered for statistical purposes; there?s no indication it was used for professional advancement.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/opin...TlNcjSqM]Remember, there's a history to this. Complete with Politicians playing this angle for benefits. Warren, herself, was lauded as the first minority woman from Harvard to get Tenure.

Satinavian said:
SupahEwok said:
Mixed white/black ancestry has a problematic history. You've got the history of white slave owners raping their slaves, for a start. Then you've got the fact that those of mixed race (called such things as "mulattos" or "quadroons") were pretty much treated as badly as "pure" blacks. And lastly, unless they're relatively recent immigrants, genetics studies show that the average African American is on average around 20% European. Basically, the average black person has white ancestry somewhere. Yet in the heydays of racial purity, we treated even majority white African Americans as black, for the purpose of discrimination.
But that is pretty much a unique US approach. Most of the world scraches its head about what counts as black there. And while racism does exist elsewhere, the lines tend to be drawn quite differently.
Not to be flippant, but is that really the case? I mean, we come from Africa, and even that's not welcoming for us [https://afropunk.com/2018/08/on-white-south-africans-who-dont-want-black-people-in-their-spaces-in-africa/].

Mixed-Race Blacks in Africa have it hard as well as Mixed raced here [https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/dec/14/i-felt-like-an-impostor-a-mixed-race-american-in-africa]. I feel like the entire world has a complicated relationship with Blacks. But most just want to believe it's America doing the bad things and they are ok.

It's been my experience in all the different places I traveled that because of my light skin, people are more willing to talk to me because they think I have a white parent somewhere. And given my speech patterns, that I'm "Not like them".

Even in Germany, I was called "not really black" because I didn't play basketball or rapped. But they understood it because my light skin meant I wasn't really black.

These are the same students who came over and was surprised that New York State wasn't a giant manhattan by the way. Media has a lot to do with how people perceive everything.
 

Satinavian

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ObsidianJones said:
I feel like the entire world has a complicated relationship with Blacks. But most just want to believe it's America doing the bad things and they are ok.

It's been my experience in all the different places I traveled that because of my light skin, people are more willing to talk to me because they think I have a white parent somewhere. And given my speech patterns, that I'm "Not like them".

Even in Germany, I was called "not really black" because I didn't play basketball or rapped. But they understood it because my light skin meant I wasn't really black.

These are the same students who came over and was surprised that New York State wasn't a giant manhattan by the way. Media has a lot to do with how people perceive everything.
I didn't mean to imply that blacks have it easy everywhere else. They sure haven't.

I did mean that mixed race people are usually not categorized as black, if not really predominantly black. There are a lot of people who are officially black in the US and officially white in some other countries they had residence. And that is if mixed is not treated as its own category. Which is by the way the most common way to do so if one wants to carry the concept of race

This stupid one-drop-rule has mostly been an American thing. And while the concepts of human races is stupid and arbitrary, the way Americans use it is different from how nearly everyone else uses it.

Your second link is basically about exactly this thing.
 

Silvanus

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Dreiko said:
My point was that these absurd things keep happening because of what I describe. To point this out is not to be pro-rape or whatever. The implication is also absurd just as much.
Which is why nobody implied such.

It's a tweet and a cnn anchor but then you realize the tweet has over 2000 likes and that the anchor wasn't chastised by anyone from his network and his remark was met with nods from the other anchor, so it's quite a bit more significant than some weirdo writing his weird crazy tweet that gets 3 likes and 2 of them are from his own alt accounts and the third from his mother.
A single rebuff to that tweet received 7000+ likes, didn't it? What's the bar for determining what's representative?

And yes, like I said twice now, you're correct about your definition but people are clearly distorting it for their convenience or political benefit due to its inherent element of disempowering dissent and debate because it's all couched in a veneer of disbelieving rape victims whether you actually do that or not.

What I'm doing here is taking the next step forward and going from calling out the people who do this (I guess there's still merit in doing that since I need to argue and post clips to even have it believed that people do this) to showing what needs to be done to prevent them from doing this moving forward.
But you made exactly the same conflation in the OP, didn't you? How does it prevent them from doing so to validate the false equivalence they're relying on? The idea that a phrase regarding sexual assault can be divorced from context and applied to just any petty political argument.
 

Trunkage

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Seanchaidh said:
trunkage said:
Seanchaidh said:
She's not Cherokee.
Just wanted to deal with this separately. When did the left take the racial purity pill from conservatives? She was 1/138th Cherokee or something right? Why is her blood/ DNA important? Shouldn't the beliefs and traditions determine if she's Cherokee? (As far as I understand, she fails there too, so you can get her on that.)
The Cherokee say she isn't Cherokee.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/elizabeth-warren-cherokee-apology_n_5d5ed7e6e4b0dfcbd48a1b01?ncid=engmodushpmg00000004

Tribal affiliation and kinship determine Cherokee identity-- not race or biology. At a time when the far right is equating Native identity with race to undermine Native rights, the myths that lie in the wake of Warren's missteps are extremely dangerous. Yes, she apologized, but we are left cleaning up the mess she made.
I mean, if this was all that needed to be said, that would have been great.

Unfortunately, a great more was said, racisms applied, blood test were had, medias were spinning stories and misunderstandings were misunderstood.

But maybe I'm blazee about it because my country went through this a couple of years ago https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017?18_Australian_parliamentary_eligibility_crisis
15 people couldn't figure out if they were dual citizens or not and some had been in their seats for year.
 

Seanchaidh

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trunkage said:
Seanchaidh said:
trunkage said:
Seanchaidh said:
She's not Cherokee.
Just wanted to deal with this separately. When did the left take the racial purity pill from conservatives? She was 1/138th Cherokee or something right? Why is her blood/ DNA important? Shouldn't the beliefs and traditions determine if she's Cherokee? (As far as I understand, she fails there too, so you can get her on that.)
The Cherokee say she isn't Cherokee.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/elizabeth-warren-cherokee-apology_n_5d5ed7e6e4b0dfcbd48a1b01?ncid=engmodushpmg00000004

Tribal affiliation and kinship determine Cherokee identity-- not race or biology. At a time when the far right is equating Native identity with race to undermine Native rights, the myths that lie in the wake of Warren's missteps are extremely dangerous. Yes, she apologized, but we are left cleaning up the mess she made.
I mean, if this was all that needed to be said, that would have been great.

Unfortunately, a great more was said, racisms applied, blood test were had, medias were spinning stories and misunderstandings were misunderstood.

But maybe I'm blazee about it because my country went through this a couple of years ago https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017?18_Australian_parliamentary_eligibility_crisis
15 people couldn't figure out if they were dual citizens or not and some had been in their seats for year.
What exactly is your point, then?
 

Agema

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trunkage said:
blazee...
Apologies for my pedantry, but "blase" (technically with an acute over the e, if I could bothered finding the proper character).
 

Trunkage

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Seanchaidh said:
trunkage said:
Seanchaidh said:
trunkage said:
Seanchaidh said:
She's not Cherokee.
Just wanted to deal with this separately. When did the left take the racial purity pill from conservatives? She was 1/138th Cherokee or something right? Why is her blood/ DNA important? Shouldn't the beliefs and traditions determine if she's Cherokee? (As far as I understand, she fails there too, so you can get her on that.)
The Cherokee say she isn't Cherokee.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/elizabeth-warren-cherokee-apology_n_5d5ed7e6e4b0dfcbd48a1b01?ncid=engmodushpmg00000004

Tribal affiliation and kinship determine Cherokee identity-- not race or biology. At a time when the far right is equating Native identity with race to undermine Native rights, the myths that lie in the wake of Warren's missteps are extremely dangerous. Yes, she apologized, but we are left cleaning up the mess she made.
I mean, if this was all that needed to be said, that would have been great.

Unfortunately, a great more was said, racisms applied, blood test were had, medias were spinning stories and misunderstandings were misunderstood.

But maybe I'm blazee about it because my country went through this a couple of years ago https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017?18_Australian_parliamentary_eligibility_crisis
15 people couldn't figure out if they were dual citizens or not and some had been in their seats for year.
What exactly is your point, then?
You were giving a right answer.

I was commenting how a bunch of people had a bunch of wrong answers causing fights. I personally had a similar opinion, let the Cherokee decide. That's not what happened. In fact, I don't think the general populace would agree with me. That Warren moment should have been a discussion, an enlightening moment. I dont think it actually informed many people.

Unfortunately, knowing the right answer doesn't always get the right result. Look at the Climate Change debate