Bethesda Doesn't Enjoy Being "Forced" into Mojang Lawsuit

[Trishbot]

And yet somehow "Transmorphers", "The Terminators", and "Snakes on a Train" can exist, movies with single titles exist like "Legend", "Avatar", "Cars", and "Up", and we have single-word games like "Quake", "Doom", "Rage", "Halo", "Infamous", "Uncharted", and "Limbo".

I don't see anyone getting confused by the video game "Doom" and the video game "Countdown to Doom" or "Resistance: Fall of Man" and "Operation Flashpoint: Resistance".

 

[samsonguy920]

I'd just like to state for the record that I think "Scrolls" by itself is a very uninformative and unimaginative title.

You do have a point there, but what seems to be forgotten is this a title for a game that is just into development. If there is one hiccup Mojang made in this mess was not stating that 'Scrolls' was just a work-in-progress title subject to change upon release(at least, I don't think they did). I remember reading something that there is no infringement of copyright in such a matter and gives the company plenty of time to change it without enacting copyright law. However, since this matter is occuring in a Swedish court it makes me think maybe they don't recognize such a term.
It's all in the court's hands now, all we can do is sit and wait.

 

[UrieHusky]

I totally forgot it was held in the defendants country, if the swedes are handling this bethesda are screwed.

Honestly I'm on the fence between these two, I'm not sure why notch doesn't just choose a different and BETTER name (scrolls sounds like a pretty lame game title tbh) And I can see where bethesdas' lawyers are coming from.
I dunno the whole thing is stupid and I definitely can't wait till it blows over, getting sick of hearing about this story now.

 

[SandroTheMaster]

Notch, here's a solution for you: Just call your game Scrolls of Magic; Scrolls of the Arcane; Scrolls of War; Scrolls of Power; Scrolls for Cool, Good-looking Dudes; Scrolls that whatever...

Not to say that Bethesda's lawyers are right in their course of action, but really, trying to defend yourself against their trademark is more work and expense than it is worth facing the fact of how easy it is to make the lawsuit completely disappear while effectively changing nothing of importance and maybe make the title of your game more unique and eye-catching. Heck you can just add "of Power" in small font under the title and you're gold to go. It is not because the title is "Scrolls of Power" that you can't just call them "scrolls" in-game.

Of course, the Minecraft crowd and the anti-establishment crowd will just wail at me and say that no expense is too large to fight against "the MAN".

 

[ultrachicken]

Why don't they just add some word in front of Mojang's "Scrolls" game? So long as it doesn't refer to age (Older Scrolls, for example) it seems like that should solve this problem.

Also, Notch hasn't been diplomatic, he's simply made suggestions that he knows Bethesda can't agree to. The video game challenge to settle the dispute comes to mind.

 

[Grottnikk]

The ironic end result of these attempts to avoid confusion between the two names and separate the brands in the public conciousness is that now the two will be forever linked in people's minds.

Heh

 

[Hitchmeister]

Okay, Notch is a real cool guy and all, so what if he want to Trademark "Scrolls" for everything in the world. He's not going to hassle Bethesda over it. So they can just let him be.

Then Joe Jerkface comes along and makes a game he calls "Elder" and trademarks that the same way. Joe Jerkface is the sort to try to make money off Bethesda by saying, "You owe me 10% of all profits from The Elder Scrolls 1 though 5 for using my trademark to sell them.

Bethesda tries to go to court and fight the claim and gets told, "Sorry by releasing your trademark to Notch you gave up on protecting it from Joe Jerkface. Pay up."

This is why Bethesda needs lawyers.

 

[magter3001]

The silliest thing about this is that noone actually refers to these games as "The Elder Scrolls."

I sympathise with Bethesda, a little bit, but it's not the title of Mojang's game that needs changed. It's these idiotic laws.

If you're like me who played multiple games from the Elder Scrolls franchise, then you definitely call it The Elder Scrolls. It's a series of games that follow in order. Bethesda tried to make other games like Redguard that borrow lore from the Elder Scrolls but it's not in the series. Skyrim is gonna be the 5th elder scroll, Oblivion was the 4th, Morrowind was the 3rd, and Daggerfall and Arena were the 2nd and 1st respectfully.

 

[SandroTheMaster]

Why don't they just add some word in front of Mojang's "Scrolls" game? So long as it doesn't refer to age (Older Scrolls, for example) it seems like that should solve this problem.

Also, Notch hasn't been diplomatic, he's simply made suggestions that he knows Bethesda can't agree to. The video game challenge to settle the dispute comes to mind.

Damnit! You stole my idea... wait... I posted it just before you...

Well, at least I'm not the only one to notice it. Specially because just "scrolls" isn't that eye-catching of a title, as any marketing department would tell Notch... if he had one. But on the other hand that's pretty much the only good advice marketing people would ever tell him, so probably he's better off.

 

[magter3001]

And yet somehow "Transmorphers", "The Terminators", and "Snakes on a Train" can exist, movies with single titles exist like "Legend", "Avatar", "Cars", and "Up", and we have single-word games like "Quake", "Doom", "Rage", "Halo", "Infamous", "Uncharted", and "Limbo".

I don't see anyone getting confused by the video game "Doom" and the video game "Countdown to Doom" or "Resistance: Fall of Man" and "Operation Flashpoint: Resistance".

I actually would find confusion in those games, especially if the company uses the same font.

Countdown to Doom almost sounds like a prologue to Doom, but it's not.

I'm not stupid, but I definitely see where a confusion could occur.

 

[Danzavare]

1) You can't assume that just because you use shorthand for games, everyone else does. Whenever I discuss the Elder Scrolls series I say "Elder Scrolls [number]: [Subtitle]" because I don't just talk to people with identical knowledge/preferences in games about it. It's easier to follow the order if you use the whole title, "Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim (and I forgot the earlier ones)" aren't as intuitive as simply having the series name and a number.

2) The Elder Scrolls series is long established, years of work have gone into it.

3) Scrolls is a new game.

4) Scrolls can change its name without too much hassle involved, since it doesn't have a 'legacy' or 'history' to that name. (Well, not one you wouldn't know if you weren't already following the game so closely before its release)

5) Elder Scrolls needs its name protected, because it has a long legacy and history to it.

6) Notch's company has less to lose and can easily avoid the problem through a name change for an unreleased game.

7) Bethesda's only choice is to fight it this way.

8) If Bethesda doesn't fight it it means:
- A) There is a game that uses fantasy art similarly to Oblivion with fantasy characters with what could feasibly seem like a shortened version of the Elder Scrolls name. It may not be the same style of game, but hey, this wouldn't be the first for a 'proper game' to have a DLC mini-game or facebook variation. (Fable 2, Dragon Age 2)
- B) There is now a precedent for other companies to do a similar maneuver against the Elder Scrolls series.
- C) The legal department isn't doing what it's paid to do.

Side notes:
~ This is basically an unnecessarily long way of trying to explain what should be common sense.
~ I did use short hand, but that's because everyone in the thread knows what I'm talking about, so keep in mind thread =/= real life environment.
~ This issue is more complicated than it actually needs to be.

 

[Furioso]

"We wanted to end things in a friendly way where we met them half-way," said Markus "Notch" Persson.

Ugh, no he did not, he offered to change it to "Scrolls: (insert subtitle)" which doesn't address the problem at all, Notch is being just as silly as Bethesda on this one

Actually trademarking a longer name would be better I think.

No, because it doesn't fix the issue, the scrolls part, and if anything it makes it worse, if they called it Scrolls: Eternia or something fantasy-ish like that, and if I didn't know about the actual scrolls game, I would think they were talking about an upcoming elder scrolls, since it's exactly how they title their games, but without the elder part

 

[Treblaine]

What the hell are you playing at?

Seriously, it'd god damn obvious that I am mad at the Trademark office FOR THAT PARTICULAR QUOTE!

Just because I then add that I am mad at Zenimax for refusing Notch's generous offer, now remember Zenimax is not suing to get Mojang to drop the trademark, they are suing them FOR EVEN USING THE WORD "SCROLLS" AT ALL!

You are being blatantly deceptive. I suggest you edit your post.

Because, Zenimax has no choice but to sue, otherwise they lose the trademark.

Secondly, Mojang did not agree to drop the trademark, they agreed to change it, which is not sufficient under trademark law.

Basically, everything that Notch has said, publically that he'd do, would not alleviate the issue. Its a situation where Zenimax MUST sue, whether they win or not, in order to protect their trademark. If they do not sue, they lose their trademark and someone, anyone, could step in and make "The Older Scrolls: Oldblivion" and it would be perfectly legal.

Nonsense, they can easily not sue. All they have to do is NOT do a shit load of paperwork filing with various courts.

They will NOT lose the trademark, if the woners of the Transformers didn't lose their trademark with this:

As I stated. US Trademark Office says that it is. US Trademark Office > You.

Then Zenimax has NOTHING to worry about, and by the way, TransMORPHERS guys did not get sued at all and Transformers rights are without question valid.

Mojang offered both, drop the trademark for just scrolls and extend it to "SCROLLS + [something else]"

That would put Mojang PERFECTLY IN LINE with the likes of:

"Dead Island" and "Dead Rising"
or
"Metal Gear Solid" and "Gears of War"

Already Mojang is in the same position as:
"COD: Black Ops" and "Black"

Number 1 there is no issue to alleviate
number 2 what notch has offered would remove any HINT of an issue

"If they do not sue, they lose their trademark "

What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous slippery slope argument, that you must stamp out EVEN THE VAGUEST SIMILARITIES otherwise people could make COMPLETE rip offs of your titles.

That is bollocks.

Because we have no way of TELLING if any sort of legal events happened for those instances behind the scenes (Transmorphers being sued, then subsequently the trademark being ruled ok, except we didn't hear about it because its pretty standard business), primarily because companies know to keep these things quiet and professional. Instead we have Notch being an idiot and making things tougher.

Zenimax is between a rock and a hard place, and Notch's childish behaviour hasn't helped the situation.

Notch could actually just, not name the game scrolls, and there wouldn't be an issue. Or he can sit there and wait for the suit to finish. Its unfortunate, but its JUST the way the trademark system works, as explained by an attorney who works for the freaking US trademark office.

Notch is the childish one? For being open and diplomatic throughout this whole ordeal?

Yet Zenimax is suing over a SINGLE WORD from one of their trademarks being used in another work. That is petty and not just a little bit childish.

"Because we have no way of TELLING if any sort of legal events happened"

You are asking me to prove a negative, THAT is ridiculous. Also nigh on impossible. Until there is evidence that something has happened there is no reason to assume it has. How about instead of you asking me to prove that there wasn't a lawsuit, how about YOU find me a test case of a similar lawsuit over a single-word-similarity.

Because I have an example case for you, it is "Edge Games" and that case ruled in favour of the defence that no you CANNOT enforce trademarks on common single words.

That "guy" at the trademarks office can't even freaking count "The Elder Scrolls" -> "Scrolls" is TWO WORDS difference between them yet he counts only one word. And some guy at a trademark office is not the same as a court ruling.

So in summary:

-Notch acts diplomatic, you call him childish
-Zenimax are blatant bullies
-you demand that I prove a negative
-I cite Edge Games as example of Zenimax's non-argument
-the trademarks "guy" can't count the number of words in a name

 

[Versuvius]

Despite this case while stupid, mandatory we still have the "We love notch, in the butt" campaign crying foul on Bethesda's part. Sigh. Is this trolling or just stupid people being stupid?
Trademark laws over your opinion i am afraid, so get bending over.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I have played both Morrowind and Oblivion, read up on (but unfortunately not played) arena and daggerfall, and I had no idea that Elder scrolls was even part of the name until someone told me so after playing Oblivion for a while.

You ask me, this is way too much effort to protect a brand name that PEOPLE DON'T EVEN USE MOST OF THE TIME.

They might Lose the Elder Scrolls title? OH NOES. Lets just go shoot the old girl then.
God Forbid we lose exclusive rights to a title (And by "Title" I mean the name, not the games themselves.) that a good amount of people don't care about.

The series needs a name. We can't call it 'the combined universe encompassing Arena, Daggerfall, Battlespire, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim and their collective fiction'. And the name needs to be trademarked, for obvious reasons. Everyone who is an Elder Scrolls fan refers to the series by it's name. I frequently refer to the series as The Elder Scrolls and I don't see how you could complete one game, much less read up on the series, without hearing about those danged scrolls. I know you didn't beat Oblivion's Thieves Guild. Plus, someone told you .

The official website for TES has been [link]elderscrolls.com[/link] at least since the days of Morrowind. Currently, that site contains links to [link]tesnexus.com[/link], [link]http://planetelderscrolls.ign.com/[/link], [link]http://www.uesp.net/[/link], and the official Elder Scrolls forums at [link]http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/forum/13-the-elder-scrolls/[/link].

So yea, they're pretty married to the title The Elder Scrolls at this point. They can't drop it. Whether legal action against Mojang is appropriate is another matter.

 

[Twilight_guy]

I still thinks scrolls is one of the worst names ever. It sounds like a working title for the time until you come up with something not completely nondescript. You mind as well name it "adventure" or "treasure." As for copyright, both parties are stupid, the law is stupid, and the people debating it who aren't the companies are stupid. Therefore, we're all stupid, omni-insults for all!

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I'd just like to state for the record that I think "Scrolls" by itself is a very uninformative and unimaginative title.

You do have a point there, but what seems to be forgotten is this a title for a game that is just into development. If there is one hiccup Mojang made in this mess was not stating that 'Scrolls' was just a work-in-progress title subject to change upon release(at least, I don't think they did). I remember reading something that there is no infringement of copyright in such a matter and gives the company plenty of time to change it without enacting copyright law. However, since this matter is occuring in a Swedish court it makes me think maybe they don't recognize such a term.
It's all in the court's hands now, all we can do is sit and wait.

Yeah, except unless I'm mistaken you usually don't apply for a patent or copyright on a working title. Like I'm not sure what the common practice is, but it just doesn't make sense to trademark a title that you're going to change anyway.

 

[Treblaine]

Yes but those people wouldn't buy either of these games.

We're not selling soft drinks here; these are expensive niche product that to just use them take a lot of knowledge and understanding. The people would would go for such games are not the sort who would make such a bone-headed mistake, no amount of buzz for Skyrim is going to lead to an inadvertent sale to Scrolls.

It's entirely possible -and likely- that someone will go looking for a game, perhaps after having 'Elder Scrolls' recommended to them, and get it confused with 'Scrolls'.

Or having a parent/grandparent/sibling/etc who isn't all that into gaming try and purchase 'Elder Scrolls' only to confuse it with 'Scrolls'

And since when is TES a niche product? This isn't some poorly publicized gem of a game that only the hardest of the hardcore know about, it's quite possibly the most well-known (If not in the top 3) Western RPG on the market.

You can't just dismiss this as 'People who don't already know about TES will never buy TES'

(damn right you remove the troll accusations, that itself is trolling)

Really? Someone is going to blow $60 on a game based on the vague idea:

"hey I heard this fantasy game was really good... I know NOTHING about the game, the only clue I have is that the word 'scrolls' is part of the title. I don't know how long the title is or if it is just one word. Scrolls. That is ALL I it takes for me to hand over $60!"

I seriously doubt if there is a single person in the entire world who is that stupid AND has $60 to spend. And if there is, there is only one. And NOBODY gives their parents such a vague description when they are asking for a present, otherwise they'd be as likely to mix up "god of War", "Gears of War" or "Metal Gear Solid" .

Is that what trademarks are for? To cover up for MONUMENTAL STUPIDITY AND IGNORANCE!

"And since when is TES a niche product"

Look at how many can of coca cola have been sold since 2006. Now look at how many copies of Oblivion were sold. Niche is relative in this case, relative to other trademarks that are literally sold to BILLIONS of people, to each HUNDREDS of times per year for low money/time investment like soft drinks and TV programs.

Also, why all of a sudden as soon as Zenimax makes this claim is everyone not using the word "Skyrim" any more? That is all that everyone has been talking about to refer to the latest game in this series, and if the game were to be recommended you would never say "get some elder scrolls game" you'd be specific and say "get skyrim".

Stop acting like there is any kind of ambiguity here.

NO ONE has ever gotten confused between "Black" and "Black Ops".

You know who owns the trademark to "System shock"? EA does. Yet "Bioshock" was made under 2k-games as Take-two Interactive subsidiary who own the rights to "Bioshock"

Bioshock
System Shock

Actually owned by completely different companies, though made by some of the same people that is irrelevant in copyright law. Why no lawsuit? BECAUSE THE NAMES ARE DISTINCT ENOUGH!

EA could try to drag Take-Two into court but Take-Two is a big publisher, they have the legal eagles to fight such a basic affront, but Mojang does not. The only think Mojang is guilty of is assuming the little guy will get fair treatment. They reality is you need to be RICH enough to afford a massive legal department to fight these redundant claims.

 

[Torrasque]

Mojang fanboy: "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU. I AM TOO BUSY BOYCOTTING YOU FOR BEING THE DEVIL"
Anyone else: "Ok that makes sense, we pretty much figured as much already"