Bethesda Exec Defends Elder Scrolls Online's Subscription Model

[Karadalis]

Subscription fee is the ONLY way to have a successful MMO of quality and longevity though constant development,

Stop... think... and then think some more.. and THEN write.

Guildwars and Guildwars 2, Everquest and Everquest 2.. heck what about LOTRO?

Yeaaaah.. not really versed on what is actually going on in the MMO scene are you?

Elderscrolls online is allready nothing but another by the numbers mmo.. it simply has nothing to offer to varrant a subscription fee that other f2p or b2p titles allready offer... theres nothing unique about it that sets it apart from the rest of the over saturated market.

Is this true? I haven't played the game, but I'd really like to know if I can move to a small town and start an inn, running that by taking care of weary travellers, brewing mead and maybe hire another player to be a bard. Can I really go where I want and do what I want?
Or does he mean "Go where you want, kill what you want, with a selection of medieval weaponry."

The later one ofcourse. And only in THEORY you can go anywhere you want.. its a theme park mmo afterall complete with questhub and level apropiate content zones. Dont expect to be able to freely travel the world like in normal Elder scrolls games.

 

[elvor0]

I wouldn't say that myself. At least in a sub scription model, I'm on level ground with everyone else, most F2P mmos, now /they/ are greedy. Sure you can play for free, but can you do anything worth a damn? Most of the time no, you're hamstringed at every turn just so they can get you to pay for stuff, and it's not like League of Legends where buying stuff is just a time saver, a lot of the time you just flat out can't access stuff. Or even then it ends up being cheaper to just buy a sub to the game if it's available than just micro transactions.

SWOTOR for example, in F2P mode you can only have one profession, which is almost pointless as you need a second one to do anything with professions, you have to pay to hide your hat, you have limited bag space and wallet space in DC Universe online. And I'm not fucking paying for that on principle, ergo, those games can do one.

If F2P functioned more like LoL, then I'm more than happy to pay for stuff, because I'm not cut off from anything aside from cosmetics by playing for free. And because I don't constatnly feel like I'm being prodded and poked(or kicked and punched) to pay, I will do to get those cosmetics, or the odd character, because I want to support them for making a decent product.

I'm not playing WoW anymore, but I always felt like my £8.99 a month was worth it, as for 656 hours worth of playtime, that's pretty fucking good, works out at about 10p an hour. Barely anything else is that cheap, I mean if you can't afford that little a month on leisure time, then don't pay it. When I was poor, WoW certainly played last fiddle to paying the rent, food, etc. Then when I was working, I could afford 8.99 a month. Because it's not that much.

Those F2P games that lock away stuff needed to be able to actually play the game like you mentioned are really no better than a subscription model. It doesn't matter how little per hour the fees come to in the end, the truth is all that stuff should be available to the player just for playing the initial purchase price for as long as they possess the game like with single player games. I have gotten hundreds of hours out of single player games just for the initial purchase price and not a cent more, and that's the way it should be with MMOs. The Pay 2 Win and Subscription models exist solely so the people who made it can sit on their asses and pretty much do nothing especially nothing to justify the cost while people throw money at them endlessly, at least that's what they're all going for.

Okay not that I'm defending the actual price, as I'm sure for games like WoW, it could be lower and still cover the necessary fees at this point but a single player game is completely different to an MMO. Once a single player game is finished, it's finished, short of DLC, and the devs can wipe their hands of it, MMOs on the other hand require:

In Game Customer Support, Out of Game Customer Support, account management, billing, Server Upkeep, constant patches/updates, extra content, purchase of new servers,(should it be necessary), data management and back up (people get mighty pissed if you lose their max level character in the best gear), maintainence, marketing, teams of Artists, animators, programmers, alpha and beta testers, money to develop /other/ games, etc etc.

All of these they need from day 1, till the day the MMO dies or they stop supporting it, and for something the size of WoW, that's a fuck ton of salaries. Where exactly do you think all of that money is going to come from? Do you think WoW would've survived purely on the money it made from box sales for 10 years? And we can't count SC2 and Diablo 3, because they money from those box sales needs to cover the development costs of those games first. Even for all the doomsayers, WoW still has almost 8 million subscribers, which is a /lot/ more than any other MMO.

The initial sales of the game first need to break even then make a profit regardless, so you need that sub to cover the constant expenses that keep the MMO going after the initial sale spike, and if you want to make it work.

 

[josemlopes]

You say a subscription fee is fool-hardy, but I say it is foolhardy to ignore the elephant in the room: Blizzard's MMORPG behemoth - World of Warcraft (WoW)- which has continually boasted (for ten years in November 2014) high PAID subscription levels ($2.3 billion in subscription revenue reported in 2013.)

Yeah, but WoW already had the fanbase willing to pay for that in the game since it was normal to be priced that way and MMO survive out of the dedication of the player and the friends he has in it, everyone knows that.

People dont quit WoW so easily has they already spent so much time and money in it and all their MMO friends are in it too.

People dont straight out join any other MMO (even free) as they dont have much reasons to stick around other then the true quality of the game. WoW was the first of its kind (not first MMO) and a lot of people got into it and ever since that they WoW has had the highest subscription number.

Blizzard doesnt need to lower the subscription as people are still willing to pay for it to keep playing with their characters in their guilds with their friends.

 

[Zac Jovanovic]

Stop... think... and then think some more.. and THEN write.

Guildwars and Guildwars 2, Everquest and Everquest 2.. heck what about LOTR?

Yeaaaah.. not really versed on what is actually going on in the MMO scene are you?

No, just no. GW2 is exactly my point! The game has some great features but it has zero longevity, the fact that you CAN log in whenever you want means nothing when there is no incentive to do it. Miniscule content updates every couple weeks add next to nothing compared to continuous rolling development funds from monthly fees can provide.

B2P is a bullshit middle ground for shortsighted people, you get the same deal when you buy a game with a subscription without paying the first month if you're actively playing, minus the borderline abusive item shop.

It was a while ago but I think LOTRO was developed and marketed with a subscription model. About EQ, admittedly, I know very little.

Edit:
And don't even get me started on things outside the actual game, I waited 11 days just to get a response from GW2 support on the most urgent type of issue (not being able to log in + password reset on the site being broken), and whooping 27 days to get access to my account and I wasn't even hacked or anything.

 

[Max_imus]

Yeah, this seems like the typical pre-release fluff. Very similar to how the KotOR-guys defended their system. Or the STO-guys. Or any other game developer ever.

I played the game during the last beta weekend, and as soon as I found out that I couldn't horribly murder people (or myself) by throwing two-wheeled carts at them (or myself), I became rather indifferent about the whole affair. I mean, what's an Elder Scrolls game without all the awesome glitches? Also, I like my Elder Scrolls without people called Dickmeister or Zackbraff or such nonsense clogging up my screen.
Call me snobbish.

 

[Smiley Face]

1) You have to pay 60$ to buy it
2) You pay 15$ a month to play it
3) It has a real money shop in game
4) Some content is locked behind a paywall (aka collectors edition)

It's pretty obvious they are milking it for more than its worth. After playing beta for 4 hours, I was so bored, I don't think I would be picking it up after it goes f2p 6 months from now.

Yeah, back when I first heard it was $60 to buy and then $15 a month on top, I almost completely wrote it off. It's way too much, and when I look at how there's the money shop and pre-order/collector edition content, it seems to me like they don't have enough confidence that their product will recoup its costs, so they're trying to squeeze all the money they can out of early adopters before shifting to a Buy-to-Play with optional subscription, then F2P with optional subscription, that way they get tons of money out of the super-fans, rich folks, and idiots, and then when they drop down a peg they catch a lot of the people waiting for the drop, but still get a bunch of money from them, and then eventually go F2P once sales dry up.

Of course I could be wrong. It could be amazing. But based on what I saw in the beta, I can't believe there's even a chance that the finished product could possibly be so good as to justify the purchase+subscription. One, yes, maybe even a purchase and a smaller subscription, but in order to justify what they're charging, it would have to be staggeringly amazing, and I got nowhere close to that.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Okay not that I'm defending the actual price, as I'm sure for games like WoW, it could be lower and still cover the necessary fees at this point but a single player game is completely different to an MMO. Once a single player game is finished, it's finished, short of DLC, and the devs can wipe their hands of it, MMOs on the other hand require:

Doesn't matter if it's an MMO, a single player, or any other product for that matter. A product which is purchased by the customer is owned by the customer and should function in full for as long as the customer owns it, whether it be an MMO or not. The fact that this kind of blatant ripping off of the customer is even allowed not to mention people are defending it is the main problem with the video game industry.

In Game Customer Support, Out of Game Customer Support, account management, billing, Server Upkeep, constant patches/updates, extra content, purchase of new servers,(should it be necessary), data management and back up (people get mighty pissed if you lose their max level character in the best gear), maintainence, marketing, teams of Artists, animators, programmers, alpha and beta testers, money to develop /other/ games, etc etc.

All the publisher's fault that they are even necessary. Out of everything you mentioned, the only thing an MMO should require is servers and everything that goes with that, and those can be paid for by other means. Everything else? The customer support? Patches? Those are the fault of the developers that either is necessary, and if they had built it well the first time around they wouldn't be needed. The marketing is a business expense necessary to promote the game, same as any other game. If the development team wants to make new content, then they make a bunch of content and release that as a $15 or so expansion pack and get their salaries from that. If the initial purchase price of the game isn't enough to pay the developers and publishers, that's again their fault, for dumping too much money into a game that wasn't going to sell enough, and that's true of any game. In fact, even the servers could be taken off the table as an excuse if offline modes were made available.

All of these they need from day 1, till the day the MMO dies or they stop supporting it, and for something the size of WoW, that's a fuck ton of salaries. Where exactly do you think all of that money is going to come from? Do you think WoW would've survived purely on the money it made from box sales for 10 years? And we can't count SC2 and Diablo 3, because they money from those box sales needs to cover the development costs of those games first.

No, it would have survived off of expansion pack sales and any advertisements they could stick in without screwing up the game's atmosphere. They don't need to charge for anything aside from the initial purchase price and all expansions if the customer wants them. The claim that it's necessary is merely an excuse the creators throw out to try and justify bulking their customers.

The initial sales of the game first need to break even then make a profit regardless, so you need that sub to cover the constant expenses that keep the MMO going after the initial sale spike, and if you want to make it work.

Constant expenses that only exist to begin with because of the publishers and developers put them there.

 

[Zipa]

Subscription fee is the ONLY way to have a successful MMO of quality and longevity though constant development,

Stop... think... and then think some more.. and THEN write.

Guildwars and Guildwars 2, Everquest and Everquest 2.. heck what about LOTRO?

Yeaaaah.. not really versed on what is actually going on in the MMO scene are you?

Elderscrolls online is allready nothing but another by the numbers mmo.. it simply has nothing to offer to varrant a subscription fee that other f2p or b2p titles allready offer... theres nothing unique about it that sets it apart from the rest of the over saturated market.

Is this true? I haven't played the game, but I'd really like to know if I can move to a small town and start an inn, running that by taking care of weary travellers, brewing mead and maybe hire another player to be a bard. Can I really go where I want and do what I want?
Or does he mean "Go where you want, kill what you want, with a selection of medieval weaponry."

The later one ofcourse. And only in THEORY you can go anywhere you want.. its a theme park mmo afterall complete with questhub and level apropiate content zones. Dont expect to be able to freely travel the world like in normal Elder scrolls games.

Star Trek Online has also been doing very well since it went F2P a couple of years ago, they actually do updates for the game now which they didn't for a long time.

Also this is pretty obviously a cash grab MMO, it is basically wow wrapped in a ES skin and not even a good one. The combat feels just weak especially magic its like throwing shoes at people not spells.

It will go f2p after about a year I would imagine just like SWTOR and many others who all do the exact same thing as WoW.

 

[VoidWanderer]

It's probably wrong to do so, but is anyone wanting to run a betting pool of when they go 'Oops, better go to Free-to-play model?'

 

[Karadalis]

Stop... think... and then think some more.. and THEN write.

Guildwars and Guildwars 2, Everquest and Everquest 2.. heck what about LOTR?

Yeaaaah.. not really versed on what is actually going on in the MMO scene are you?

No, just no. GW2 is exactly my point! The game has some great features but it has zero longevity, the fact that you CAN log in whenever you want means nothing when there is no incentive to do it. Miniscule content updates every couple weeks add next to nothing compared to continuous rolling development funds from monthly fees can provide.

B2P is a bullshit middle ground for shortsighted people, you get the same deal when you buy a game with a subscription without paying the first month if you're actively playing, minus the borderline abusive item shop.

It was a while ago but I think LOTRO was developed and marketed with a subscription model. About EQ, admittedly, I know very little.

Edit:
And don't even get me started on things outside the actual game, I waited 11 days just to get a response from GW2 support on the most urgent type of issue (not being able to log in + password reset on the site being broken), and whooping 27 days to get access to my account and I wasn't even hacked or anything.

Oh you mean paid for expansions that you have to spend another 40 to 50 dollars for?

That constantly rolling out of quality content? The one that ONLY WoW has done in the past couple of years and NO OTHER MMO because they failed with their subscription models before they could even make it to their first Expansion pack?

Dont even think for a moment that subscription fees go towards the development of Expansion packs. The price for developing xpansion packs is covered by the price you pay for them when they come out. You dont even get a free month of play like you do when you buy the base game for crying out loud! You pay 40 to 50 dollars for an expansion that in most cases isnt even feature complete when it comes out with entire dungeons and raids not even in it yet.

And all the content that usualy shows up after a X-pac is released like you see in Wow? Thats suposed to be content thats part of the Xpac to begin with but its much better to scrap feed your player base the content of an Xpack over a year or three to string them along and pay more subscription money!

It isnt called carrot on a stick for no reason.

Meanwhile in GW2 you have a constantly evolving storyline that has changed quite a bit from the beginning of the game till now and makes a big deal about your characters involvment in everything, essentially for free... while as in WoW you can be glad if your character shows up during cutscenes after YOU killed the big bad and Blizzards own Mary Sues (hi there thrall aka. green jesus!) grab all the glory and completly ignore your ass.

However i will give you the atrocious tech-support of GW2 wich is really atrocious, but that has less to do with subscriptions and more to do with the company itself.. LOTRO never had support problems.

 

[Sanunes]

For me the game isn't worth $15 a month fee, it just felt like another generic MMO with Elder Scrolls stamped on the side of the box. If I want to play an open world game that is part of the Elder Scrolls universe I will just go back and play Skyrim again.

For some people the monthly fee is going to be fine and other it will be a deal breaker, but what bothers me is that the statement almost feels like we are getting a guilt trip to buy their game. Of course I might not feel as negatively towards the monthly fee if Zenimax didn't say the reason why they wanted the player to experience all the content and not get nickel and dimed with a free-to-play model and what they are offering (especially the Imperial race) feels like we are being nickel and dimed.

 

[Bat Vader]

I have enjoyed the times that I have played in the beta. As long as I continue to like it I don't mind purchasing a subscription for it.

 

[LordMonty]

I'm totally neutral on this game, gonig to play this upcoming weekend beta and the headstart and then see how I feel about it then before i go into pick up my copy of the game. I have seen the first two zones and while they were funish I must admit it wasn't everything I hoped for... Wildstar has been more enjoyable for the two beta weekends i've played of that.

But we'll see how the beta feels this weekend, otherwise I may just get myself the Diablo expansion this month and wait for Wildstar.

 

[Sanunes]

I'm totally neutral on this game, gonig to play this upcoming weekend beta and the headstart and then see how I feel about it then before i go into pick up my copy of the game. I have seen the first two zones and while they were funish I must admit it wasn't everything I hoped for... Wildstar has been more enjoyable for the two beta weekends i've played of that.

But we'll see how the beta feels this weekend, otherwise I may just get myself the Diablo expansion this month and wait for Wildstar.

I decided to get the expansion for Diablo 3 after being in three beta tests for ESO and I enjoyed Patch 2.0 more then my time with Elder Scrolls online. I still have issues, but I think to fix those they might have to go back and rebuild sections of the engine.

 

[Joseph Wallace]

I have not played the beta on this I am only going on my WOW experience and basing what seemingly every mmorpg has done in the late last couple years. I did play wow for a few years and felt justified by my expenditures of the 40 buck game purchases for expands and 15 dollar monthly payments but I also lived and breathed WOW. I work 40 hours a week and I would come home and put the rest of my time into WOW, so much so that I had more time per week on WOW than I had in my 40 hour weeks! I have since then quit WOW and now base how much I want to spend on a game on the fact that I wont be playing that much ever again. Given that attitude NOTHING is worth paying for a full price game and 15 buck monthly fees and having a stupid pay shop!

The other thing with them justifying the monthly fee as a needed expense to support updates and expands and whatnots. Almost all mmo's that launch with monthly pay have converted over to free to play even ones that were touted as popular enough to stand with the monthly fees. It basically looks as if it has become an industry standard just to gouge out as much as possible the 1st year with monthly fees if deemed popular enough with the idea that WOW still exists with it. The deal here is WOW already has a strong back and everyone playing it already has adjusted to the monthly feeing over 10 years. Anybody wanting to play something new expects the new status quo of gaming which is the free to play model.

 

[Zac Jovanovic]

Oh you mean paid for expansions that you have to spend another 40 to 50 dollars for?

That constantly rolling out of quality content? The one that ONLY WoW has done in the past couple of years and NO OTHER MMO because they failed with their subscription models before they could even make it to their first Expansion pack?

Dont even think for a moment that subscription fees go towards the development of Expansion packs. The price for developing xpansion packs is covered by the price you pay for them when they come out. You dont even get a free month of play like you do when you buy the base game for crying out loud! You pay 40 to 50 dollars for an expansion that in most cases isnt even feature complete when it comes out with entire dungeons and raids not even in it yet.

And all the content that usualy shows up after a X-pac is released like you see in Wow? Thats suposed to be content thats part of the Xpac to begin with but its much better to scrap feed your player base the content of an Xpack over a year or three to string them along and pay more subscription money!

It isnt called carrot on a stick for no reason.

Meanwhile in GW2 you have a constantly evolving storyline that has changed quite a bit from the beginning of the game till now and makes a big deal about your characters involvment in everything, essentially for free... while as in WoW you can be glad if your character shows up during cutscenes after YOU killed the big bad and Blizzards own Mary Sues (hi there thrall aka. green jesus!) grab all the glory and completly ignore your ass.

However i will give you the atrocious tech-support of GW2 wich is really atrocious, but that has less to do with subscriptions and more to do with the company itself.. LOTRO never had support problems.

I never said anything about paying full price for expansion packs. It's as inexcusable as content paywalls and item shops when there is a subscription fee set.

I also don't think any game fully justified the "standard" 15$/m pricetag up to date, though it was devalued significantly through inflation since it was first implemented so we might just get there.

The GW2 content updates are all well and nice but they provide a couple of hours of gameplay per month at best, which satisfies no one's MMO appetites .It's a game everyone praises and no one plays.

 

[ShakerSilver]

Mhmm, yes, an outdated model of payment surely must be defended. Just like how EA defended it with TOR. Oh, but then it became F2P 6 months after release. And from what I've played so far, I can't say I'd be surprised if this game does the same.

I mean let's face it, sub models aren't going to attract the majority of people who played any of the Elder Scrolls games; whether they were a casual fan that started with Skyrim or a lore junkie and hardcore fan that's been with it from Arena. More casual fans will be put off by the sub model (why pay every month just to play Skyrim Online?) and the hardcore fans of a series that thrives off of immersion and story probably won't be interested in a multiplayer experience to take them out of the world (and they probably don't like the lore rape done to the series either).

So really, who's left? The MMO crowd? Good luck wrestling them from WoW.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

I wasn't aware that people wanted it to be free to play. If I were interested at all in this generic reimagining, I'd want it to be freemium, buy once, or at the very least, longer and less expensive subscriptions than 15 dollars monthly. Being confident you can deliver content is one thing, justifying a quarter of a new game (in the US) every month is another.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

The problem isn't the subscription model. The problem is TESO. It's just not worth 15$ a month when it can't provide 15$ more content than GW2 or any other MMO provides.

'cause it's "just another MMO" with no USP or revolutionary design choices. The world is small and awfully linear, it's theme-park style quest-hub-galore and even Hellgate London did the realtime fighting way better nearly 7 years ago.

Save your money, buy Dark Souls 2.

 

[Karadalis]

I never said anything about paying full price for expansion packs. It's as inexcusable as content paywalls and item shops when there is a subscription fee set.

I also don't think any game fully justified the "standard" 15$/m pricetag up to date, though it was devalued significantly through inflation since it was first implemented so we might just get there.

The GW2 content updates are all well and nice but they provide a couple of hours of gameplay per month at best, which satisfies no one's MMO appetites .It's a game everyone praises and no one plays.

You said that subscriptions where the only way to have success and longlevity in MMOs... wich i have proven to be false.

Or where are all those succesfull subscription MMOs youre talking about?

Guild wars 2 is succesfull and has longlevity despite your personal tastes.

So does Star trek online (kudos to Zipa for bringing that up btw)

Or the Everquest games, or LOTRO.

Heck or the best f2p offer i have seen so far in the western mmo market namely RIFT.

All successfull Titles in their own right that still get content that you dont have to pay for. Sure they arent WoW Expansion pack types of content but then again those expansion packs arent exactly free now are they? Infact they are the price of an entirely new game.. while offering less content then a full game.. go figure.

Just because you dislike the content doesnt mean they are not sucesfull and have no longlevity.

Subscriptions are an archaic remnant of a time when it was indeed very expensive to run MMOs from a technical standpoint... in an age where people where still using 56k modems. Nowadays thought? If it really had anything to do with server cost they would have lowered the fee.. you cant really tell me that the same price as from almost 10 years ago is still justifiable.