Better Representing Muslims: A Few Ideas

[Mahoshonen]

Once again, I hate myself for reading the comments on an interesting article. The Escapist really needs a paywall.

Oh well, at least I got a new book to read. Perhaps some of you on this thread should read it too.

 

[Cpt. Slow]

Fine, here is the deal Muslims stop bombing/shooting/killing us and each other then we can talk.
/Boston

Aaaand you nailed the entire topic down to the T with just a few simple words.

 

[Quantum Glass]

Oh, please. When has demonizing a group of ethnically and religiously semitic people ever backfired on a large western nation going through a severe economic depression?

Pass the bratwurst.

 

[senordesol]

Fine, here is the deal Muslims stop bombing/shooting/killing us and each other then we can talk.
/Boston

Ooh! Can we get white people to stop shooting up schools while we're at it? /Sandyhook

 

[Lovely Mixture]

A couple of Iraqi students stayed at my dorm as part of an exchange program during college. When I first met them I wanted to make an impression, so I mentioned that my sister was a Middle East journalist who'd lived in Beirut for three years.

I thought they'd be impressed by her bravery, or that maybe we'd find kinship in it - instead they snickered. "Beirut," snorted one. "Beirut is Disneyland Middle East."

God that just pisses me off. Nevermind that she's y'know LIVING IN AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT country, instead of "oh, that's pretty cool" it's "DUR HUR, Beirut is for casuals." I hate it when people burn olive branches.

 

[LysanderNemoinis]

I wonder if Mr. Rath will take a look at the vast majority of whatever entertainment that comes out of the Middle East (with the sole exception of our good friends in Israel) and see how wonderfully diverse and three-dimension characters that are Westerners, Europeans, Jews, Christians, Americans, or anyone that aren't Middle Eastern and/or Muslim are. Oh wait...we're all shown to be completely and irredeemably evil, up to Jewish people eating the eyes of Muslim babies and cackling like monsters. But then again, I suppose it's best Mr. Rath doesn't point that out, because even though I disagree with him often, I don't want him to get beheaded by a follower of the "religion of peace."

 

[TakerFoxx]

Once again, I hate myself for reading the comments on an interesting article. The Escapist really needs a paywall.

Oh well, at least I got a new book to read. Perhaps some of you on this thread should read it too.

My thoughts exactly. For such an "open-minded" forum, the religiphobia gets really bad sometimes.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

I wonder if Mr. Rath will take a look at the vast majority of whatever entertainment that comes out of the Middle East (with the sole exception of our good friends in Israel) and see how wonderfully diverse and three-dimension characters that are Westerners, Europeans, Jews, Christians, Americans, or anyone that aren't Middle Eastern and/or Muslim are. Oh wait...we're all shown to be completely and irredeemably evil, up to Jewish people eating the eyes of Muslim babies and cackling like monsters. But then again, I suppose it's best Mr. Rath doesn't point that out, because even though I disagree with him often, I don't want him to get beheaded by a follower of the "religion of peace."

I think you should clarify your point otherwise you'll come off a bit of a bigot.

It's not good how things are on either side, and admittedly the press does focus on how our media might be offensive. Though it doesn't make it any less true.

Things should be done like Southpark, make fun of both sides (but please omit the crude humor).

 

[Danny Ocean]

Fantastic article.

I've been to North Africa/Arabian Peninsula/Middle-East a few times. I'm about to go again for three months to learn Arabic. While I'm there I'll be reading the Qu'ran because it seems appropriate to understand the place I'm living in.

That alone has been enough for some to brand me a "Muslim-lover!" and a "Muslim in disguise!"

They seem to ignore the fact I'm an atheist and I'm also reading the preliminary readings for my Philosophy+Politics degree. I just think more critically than they do, which is especially astounding to those who already think they know it all.

I really hope I don't get warned for this post, but I just have to say after reading this, that most of the stereotypes have some grounding in reality. But it's the same for everyone, no matter where you're from. Also, the muslim religion specifically states that followers should convert all non-muslims with refusal meaning death. There's no misinterpretation there, look in the Koran and you can read it for yourself. Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of a religion that wants to kill anyone who isn't a part of it?

Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of ignorance masquerading as informed and unbiased opinion?

Have you even been to those parts of the world in any significant sense?

If I recall correctly, those great by-the-book Muslim empires known as the Caliphates expressly did not try to convert anyone, or stop them practising their religion.

Read the Qu'ran yourself rather than trusting the famously paradigmed religionofpeace.com. That site is a mish-mash of half-truths and uncontextualised talking-points. Not unlike Fox News. The very section you link only mentions the parts advocating it, out of context. It's an epic poem, so pulling verses out is even worse than pulling verses out of the bible.

I mean come on:

"For their part, Western liberals would do well not to sacrifice critical thinking to the god of political correctness, or look for reasons to bring other religion down to the level of Islam merely to avoid the existential truth that this it is both different and dangerous."

You can't possibly trust people who say shit like that.

I don't know a lot about Muslims or the Middle East/North Africa/Arabian Peninsula, but I know a damn site more about them and it than, I'd wager, anyone else who has commented on this article so far.

Once again, I hate myself for reading the comments on an interesting article. The Escapist really needs a paywall.

Oh well, at least I got a new book to read. Perhaps some of you on this thread should read it too.

My thoughts exactly. For such an "open-minded" forum, the religiphobia gets really bad sometimes.

It's a critically thinking echo chambre.

I'll leave you to enjoy the irony. It makes me angry more than anything.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

Time to add some old school social criticisms from the past about religions of ALL stripes (though, admittedly, they bash Christianity the most):




Moral of the story: Religion is bullshit. Especially the fundamentalist versions.

It's fine if you want to believe in it, go right ahead. But I'll tell y'all something here and now: don't think your beliefs will shield you from my criticism or that it's a catch all against any criticisms, and about the time you infringe on someone else's life and freedoms simply because you don't agree with them and their beliefs, your own beliefs become null and fuckin' void.

 

[Xdeser2]

Totally agree with most of this article

But If I can be allowed one nitpick....the Redguard one isn't a good example, in the Elder Scrolls, Redguard culture has been explained like crazy in the lore, its nothing like the stereotypical "Arab" portrayal

 

[Xdeser2]

Time to add some old school social criticisms from the past about religions of ALL stripes (though, admittedly, they bash Christianity the most):




Moral of the story: Religion is bullshit. Especially the fundamentalist versions.

It's fine if you want to believe in it, go right ahead. But I'll tell y'all something here and now: don't think your beliefs will shield you from my criticism or that it's a catch all against any criticisms, and about the time you infringe on someone else's life and freedoms simply because you don't agree with them and their beliefs, your own beliefs become null and fuckin' void.

Dont know why it quoted you and posted this >-<

my bad

 

[AldUK]

Fantastic article.

I've been to North Africa/Arabian Peninsula/Middle-East a few times. I'm about to go again for three months to learn Arabic. While I'm there I'll be reading the Qu'ran because it seems appropriate to understand the place I'm living in.

That alone has been enough for some to brand me a "Muslim-lover!" and a "Muslim in disguise!"

They seem to ignore the fact I'm an atheist and I'm also reading the preliminary readings for my Philosophy+Politics degree. I just think more critically than they do, which is especially astounding to those who already think they know it all.

I really hope I don't get warned for this post, but I just have to say after reading this, that most of the stereotypes have some grounding in reality. But it's the same for everyone, no matter where you're from. Also, the muslim religion specifically states that followers should convert all non-muslims with refusal meaning death. There's no misinterpretation there, look in the Koran and you can read it for yourself. Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of a religion that wants to kill anyone who isn't a part of it?

Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of ignorance masquerading as informed and unbiased opinion?

Have you even been to those parts of the world in any significant sense?

If I recall correctly, those great by-the-book Muslim empires known as the Caliphates expressly did not try to convert anyone, or stop them practising their religion.

Read the Qu'ran yourself rather than trusting the famously paradigmed religionofpeace.com. That site is a mish-mash of half-truths and uncontextualised talking-points. Not unlike Fox News. The very section you link only mentions the parts advocating it, out of context. It's an epic poem, so pulling verses out is even worse than pulling verses out of the bible.

I mean come on:

"For their part, Western liberals would do well not to sacrifice critical thinking to the god of political correctness, or look for reasons to bring other religion down to the level of Islam merely to avoid the existential truth that this it is both different and dangerous."

You can't possibly trust people who say shit like that.

I don't know a lot about Muslims or the Middle East/North Africa/Arabian Peninsula, but I know a damn site more about them and it than, I'd wager, anyone else who has commented on this article so far.

I had made a mental note not to further comment on this thread in order to prevent escalation of emotions resulting in warnings being handed out. But your post actually ticked me off. What you're saying here is that you know more than anyone else on this subject why? Because you've been to a certain part of the world a few times? How about you tell us about your experiences there and provide actual reasoning behind your statement? As to the site I linked, it's the result of a google search, I knew that those passages existed, I simply needed to find a website quoting those passages to provide proof to my statement, something which you haven't done.

My point is, don't simply wade into a discussion to belittle somebody based on a rhetoric which you can't back up with facts and information. If you can, then by all means, post again and tell us all about why I and others here are wrong in feeling uneasy about holding out the peace laurels to a religion which is closely associated with international terrorism.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

Dont know why it quoted you and posted this >-<

my bad

No worries. Besides, I've seen weirder things happen on the forums.

 

[OneCatch]

Fine, here is the deal Muslims stop bombing/shooting/killing us and each other then we can talk.
/Boston

"Fine, here is the deal, [Americans] stop [bombing/invading/drone-striking] us then we can talk."
/Yemen

See what I did there?

-----------

On topic, I broadly agree with the theme of the article, though I think that suggesting the Covenant from Halo are some kind of Islam allegory is probably pushing it.
Similarly, I don't think the Redguard thing is relevant -they, like all other races in TES, culturally derive from a whole range of real historical artistic styles. The nords and imperials are pretty racially clichéd as well - probably more than the redguard.
Most of the buildings in Morrowind are pretty Carthaginian looking too, and that's with a capitalist political system, efficacious paganism, and a population of cat-people, lizards, zombies, and elves!

That aside I agree, and what would be really refreshing would be having a modern-setting game with a Muslim character where their religion was perhaps mentioned once, and was henceforth completely irrelevant. That way you aren't cack-handedly promoting or detracting from Islam, you just treat the character as an actual person.

 

[Lightknight]

I really hope I don't get warned for this post, but I just have to say after reading this, that most of the stereotypes have some grounding in reality. But it's the same for everyone, no matter where you're from. Also, the muslim religion specifically states that followers should convert all non-muslims with refusal meaning death. There's no misinterpretation there, look in the Koran and you can read it for yourself. Should we really, truthfully be tolerant of a religion that wants to kill anyone who isn't a part of it?

Ok, take it from me, the Islamic faith and some Islamic cultures have some potentially violent and contentious practices but this specific one isn't true. I specialized in the Islamic faith in college and have actually studied the faith. Both its scriptures and its laws. Regarding your statement about a command to compulse people into belief. There are specific verses that say the opposite, that there can be no compulsion with faith. They have historically acted on that. Take the Muslim invasion of Spain by in 711 a.c.e. True, that was within a hundred years of the inception of the faith which does speak to its militant nature, but the Jews and the Christians were only killed if they fought back but generally left alone otherwise. Islam gives special provisions for Jews, Christians, and Sabians, even going so far as to say that they have nothing to fear on the day of judgment (it is said twice, once each in the 2 and 5 Surahs). Nonbelievers are taxed and not permitted to serve in certain functions but death isn't an automatic like people think. Adherents of other faiths or Atheism may be a bit murkier a discussion though. But spreading the religion by the sword is generally referring to conquering other lands and installing Sharia law and encouraging the faith. Not forcing or killing if they don't convert.

What most people don't realize is that Islamic Denominations also have Hadiths (acts/sayings of the Prophet) that are used in combination with the Qur'an to form Sharia Law. Some Hadiths are held at the same level of authority as the Qur`an. The two largest denominations, Sunni and Shi`ite, make up about 90% of the faith. Sunnis have four schools of law that each place a different emphasis on various passages of Hadith and the Shi'te expression has its own school of law with a different set of hadiths they consider legitimate. The next largest group may be something like the Quranists who are Qur`an onlyists. You may have heard of Islamic sufis but you can be a member of the other denominations and be sufi rather than Sufi being a seperate expression/denomination. I mention this to establish that not all Muslims are necessarily the same, but they're a lot more similar to one another than Christian denominations.

What Western culture would probably be the most upset with Islamic teachings on would be things like:

1. Since the Prophet married Aisha when she was six/seven and consummated the marriage when she was 9, this is an inherrently righteous action going forward. There's been a lot of work to apologize this practice. He was likely 40 years old at the time and the vast majority of hadiths agree with these numbers.

2. The Qur`an has a three step response to reprimand your wife for being out of line. Attempt 1: Warn her. Attempt 2: Sleep in a seperate bed. Attempt 3: Beat her. I'm surprised this verse hasn't gotten more public circulation. Modern translations of the Qur`an had tried to lighten the verse by adding the word "lightly" to the third step. Like that makes it cool. This, along with other verses, actively objectify and trivialize women. Women who defend Islam as a religion that's all about love and equality are sadly misguided into defending something that's against them.

3. The Qur'an demands active prejudice against non-Muslims. Some instances do incur death on the individual but other things like basic rights and not being discriminated against are thrown out of the way by order of their God. I'm referring to things like being taxed or being unable to have rights to free speech.

4. Iconoclasm. The Sunni faith abhors physical representation of living beings. This is why Sunni culture has almost no images of people's faces or animals or anything. The controversial side of this is that they very much believe in destroying icons/images due to their schools of law (not Qur`anic verses). If Sharia law ever reached, say, the Louvre, it would be burned to the ground.

So this article fails to account for difference between a realistic evaluation of the faith and a "postive portrayal". It is difficult to distinguish between prejudice and direct portrayal of a group of people when a non-trivial segment of them seek to actively pursue what we believe to be evil. There are many Islamic cultures that believe we are in direct war with them and so to portray them as peace loving people who just want to dance in fields of flowers with Americans in the right context is just as misleading as making them insane and blood thirsty all the time without exception. There are many peaceful Islamic groups, especially in the US. But they have to ignore certain aspects of their faith to fit into Western society.

One thing I will absolutely say is that the Qur'an doesn't encourage the slaughter of innocents. Seperate cultures may, but not the faith. These bombings and other nonsense are not condoned in their faith. Fighting against militant groups = totally legit.

 

[Zombie_Moogle]

Excellent article. These lessons could be applied in a broader sense to game development as a whole.

Gonna skip over the echo chamber. Pointless to debate in this atmosphere

Once again, I hate myself for reading the comments on an interesting article. The Escapist really needs a paywall.

Oh well, at least I got a new book to read. Perhaps some of you on this thread should read it too.

This made me smile. Just felt like sharing that

Or maybe we could you know, play as one?

Novel concept

I suppose Dark Cloud could count as having Middle Eastern characters/setting, but that could be dismissed as just an art design choice

Liberals, the peace at any price movement, and humanitarians like to try and focus on individuals and put a human face on problems

A) Character writing is quite literally about focusing on an individual. Kinda missing the point here

B) You know, when you needlessly throw in your own political biases, you largely invalidate your own points, which if stated in a more rational (or "moderate" if you prefer. wink) fashion, you'd much more effectively get your point across by not clouding your own argument

 

[Quantum Glass]

The tiny, but important difference is that these parts of the bible have officially been deemed obsolete and irrelevant for todays christians. The Quran however is considered the word of God himself, infailable and always valid. That's the very reason why countries with sharia law still stone women who got raped to death and behead gays and "witches". All in the name of Allah, as directed by the prophet Muhammad.

You haven't been following the news in recent months, have you? In all countries of the "Arab Spring", all non-muslims must fear for their lifes. Foreigners and non-muslims get abducted, tortured, persecuted or outright executed on sight. All in the name of Allah. I could post some videos, but that'd get me insta-banned.

I know what's gonna come now: "that's only a minority, not all muslims are like that". Well, 70% of the egyptian people have voted for the people who promote exactly that. And it's not like the "good" muslims in these places fight to protect and support those who suffer from the wrath of the "bad" muslims. Guess that's saying a lot.

I live near Berlin, Germany, a major city with LOTS of muslim immigrants. I have to deal with them personally more often than I'd like to. And unfortunately, most prejudices turn out to be actually true more often than not. I've also read a good deal of the Quran, it actually DOES tell you to kill infidels because they are "lower than lifestock" and not beliving is worse than death. I can quote that as well if anyone wants me to.

...You do realize that Christians still worship that kind of God, right? Sure he might not advocate stoning rape victims /now/, but there was certainly a period where he was cool with it. Sends children to hell, too. And the Jews still have all of the crazier Hebrew Bible laws still technically canon, but nobody minds, because they don't actually hurt anybody. See, there's this fascinating new concept we just got from the Athenians--it's called the justice system. When somebody does something bad, they're punished for their actions. Conversely, when someone doesn't do something bad, they're not punished. We're still working out the kinks, but if everything goes right, we might be able to hold people accountable for their actions. Wonderful new idea, really. Judging individuals when they do something wrong...I tell ya, those Athenians come up with the wackiest forms of government.

 

[madgaurd1989]

Totally agree with most of this article

But If I can be allowed one nitpick....the Redguard one isn't a good example, in the Elder Scrolls, Redguard culture has been explained like crazy in the lore, its nothing like the stereotypical "Arab" portrayal

Also have to nitpick about the Game of Thrones point. The most "Arab" group are the people of Dorne. A group of ethnically and culturally diverse peoples ruled by a benevolant ruler, Prince Doran Martell. They are one of the safest places in the seven kingdoms, one of the strongest militaries, and is home to some of the most morally just and peaceful Houses in Westeros.

 

[Agayek]

Aaaand the Bible includes a line about stoning gays to death and several about slaves. Should we really, truthfully, be tolerant of a religion that encourages the death penalty for homosexuals and the ownership of slaves?

Most Muslims aren't exactly on board with the idea of murderizing anybody who isn't Muslim, no matter what their holy book says.

Clearly the solution is to just outlaw both. Because obviously, ancient texts with little-to-no relevance in the modern world are just the thing to use as a guideline in said modern world.

/flamebait.

OT: The last item in the article is by far the most important one to achieve IMO. People (including myself, sadly enough) get so caught up in making distinctions between "us" and "them" that they lose sight of the fact that no matter what the group, people are still people. There's good ones, bad ones, and most are somewhere in the middle.

It's human nature to catalog and stereotype, so we may never get past it, but we really need to stop looking at the categories people fall under and pay more attention to the fact that they're people.