Beyond Two Souls; edit: now discussing the game (Spoilers)

[tippy2k2]

This thread is going to be incredibility narrow (I will probably make a broader thread about failed opportunity like this game later) but right now, I have a more focused talking point.

I love the concept of this game and when the story really grips you (like Chapter Homeless), it is amazing. Unfortunately, I have found that chapter and maybe when you go Carrie on the teens earlier the only real great parts with the rest of it being a fight to go through.

So anyone who played (and please no spoilers past Najavo); do I kick the game to the curb or does the potential I see in this game and story FINALLY start to pay off? I seem to be at the half way point so I am curious to see it conclude but my care level is minimal. I love the concept and I loved games like Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain but the game HAS to sink it's claws into your brain for them to work and this one just isn't doing it...

EDIT: I updated it in the thread but I'll put it here too; I finished the game so discuss to your hearts's content without worrying about spoilers

 

[murrow]

The last hours are a cop-out to end all cop-outs. It basically forgets it's supposed to be an interactive drama with "superior" storytelling and recycles the worst of videogame clichés minus the gameplay.

Homeless and Navajo are by far the most solid chapters. There rest is forgetful at best, rage-inducing at worst.

I'm going to say however that there's ONE ending option that really redeems the experience. If you liked the Homeless chapter you're going to love it. I'd say it's worth finishing it just because, but if you give-up do at least try to watch in on youtube. You'll know it when you see it.

 

[tippy2k2]

The last hours are a cop-out to end all cop-outs. It basically forgets it's supposed to be an interactive drama with "superior" storytelling and recycles the worst of videogame clichés minus the gameplay.

Homeless and Navajo are by far the most solid chapters. There rest is forgetful at best, rage-inducing at worst.

I'm going to say however that there's ONE ending option that really redeems the experience. If you liked the Homeless chapter you're going to love it. I'd say it's worth finishing it just because, but if you give-up do at least try to watch in on youtube. You'll know it when you see it.

I don't suppose you'd have a guess for about what I've got left time-wise? I'm about halfway through Najavo and if it's the last of the good ones, I don't know if I would want to keep going...

Such potential wasted on such a dumb mistake. I have a feeling that if this was in chronological order, it would be FAR better. In it's condition, it's a bunch of disjointed events that mean nothing to me without the context of Jodie's experiences Homeless only worked so well because it was long enough to give me some context and meaning to latch onto...

 

[Casual Shinji]

Homeless and Navajo are by far the most solid chapters. There rest is forgetful at best, rage-inducing at worst.

The reason for that being that those are the only chapters that last longer than half 'n hour before it chucks you into some other random moment in time.

It just goes to show how keeping the audience in the moment goes a long way with pulling them along in the story. Just look at Heavy Rain and how much better it is by comparison simply by being chronological. And that game was terrible.

 

[Mister K]

Just watch a LP. Preferably Super Best Friends Play one.

 

[murrow]

I don't suppose you'd have a guess for about what I've got left time-wise? I'm about halfway through Najavo and if it's the last of the good ones, I don't know if I would want to keep going...

Such potential wasted on such a dumb mistake. I have a feeling that if this was in chronological order, it would be FAR better. In it's condition, it's a bunch of disjointed events that mean nothing to me without the context of Jodie's experiences Homeless only worked so well because it was long enough to give me some context and meaning to latch onto...

One thing is certain. David Cage has no idea how to handle non-chronological storytelling. But don't kid yourself. The conclusion is terrible, and no amount of fiddling with narrative order would improve it. I'll drop you a hint: the game turns into Call of Duty.

It's been a while since I've played it, so I don't remember how many hours you've got left. But the wiki places the Navajo chapter at around the halfway mark.

 

[Burgers2013]

I'm not sure whether to tell you yes or no. Finishing the game for the most part won't be pleasant. As others have said, you've been through the best parts already. It has a few other valuable small moments, but that's it. It might be worth playing through so you can see exactly how the potential of this game was wasted. It has a lot of valuable lessons for designers in the genre (e.g. don't create an interesting game mechanic then totally squander/ignore it; might as well have taken it out). It isn't terribly long; I think I finished it in two sittings. It was a while back though, so I can't remember how long it was exactly.

I was really sad about this game (loved Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain). I think it could have been really engaging. Instead it was...Beyond: Two Souls. Finishing it probably won't leave you feeling any different than you do now, but it isn't the worst game I've played either. It's just extremely mediocre.

 

[Shiftygiant]

You don't need to keep playing, just watch an LP. The game is so railroaded and liner you can literally watch an LP and get an accurate description of what the game is about.

 

[KenAri]

I found the game most interesting -after- playing it, when I looked at a branching choice map and saw what effect my choices and actions actually had. The game didn't do a very good job of making my actions feel important (in the same way that, say, ME2 did). And perhaps that was the point, because life itself is full of what-ifs.

The ending was a bit of a botch-job, but overall I'm personally glad I completed it. It's not that much time to commit, but I remember some boring or annoying sections. It's just nice to have a 'my version of the story' in my head for whenever I see other people's playthroughs.

 

[tippy2k2]

Update Time!

If anyone is wondering...yeah, the game broke me. I went back to it.

In the games defense at least, now that the story is piecing together (and having just finished the Call of Duty section), I find myself caring more and more about what's going on.

It's still not great (although the "Date" section was kind of fun...who knew picking out dresses was so tough! I apologize now to all the ladies who take forever clothing shopping), I do find that I care now enough about Jodie to find out how this ends. I'm thinking I'm very close to the end anyway so we'll see if I am vindicated or if I should have listened to people...

 

[tippy2k2]

The ending was a bit of a botch-job, but overall I'm personally glad I completed it. It's not that much time to commit, but I remember some boring or annoying sections. It's just nice to have a 'my version of the story' in my head for whenever I see other people's playthroughs.

I just finished the game (I figured I was pretty close) and I have to agree with what you just said completely.

Would my life be a hallow shell of an existence had I not finished it? No...it wasn't all that great. It certainly wasn't bad (and kind of as I predicted, I felt it did get much better once the pieces were actually in place long enough for me to care) so I'm happy I punched through it.

As for the ending (Spoilers obviously), that's where I really think the "Chronological order" would have really helped. Nathan (Willem Dafoe) could have had a very slow but well foreshadowed slip into madness; something I now see colored much of the game but I didn't know because we didn't see the beginning of that slip until the end of the game (the family dying). Instead, he goes from loving father figure to crazy McCoo Coo pants in a twenty minute span...

Although now I'm a bit disappointed that there probably won't be a sequel with the "Terminator Judgement Day"-esque ending (or at least that was my ending EDIT: Looks like that's everyone else's ending too assuming they chose life when I went to the Youtubes to see the other endings). If they could just iron out a lot of the problems, this game COULD have been absolutely epic and a model to show people what games can be...instead we get a very flawed half-movie that falls flat.

All well. I don't regret playing it so that's at least something, right?

 

[gandhi the peacemake]

Just watch a LP. Preferably Super Best Friends Play one.

Seconded, especially since you (tippy) have already finished the game. Their LPs of the three David Cage games (pseudo-affectionately referred to as the Sadness Trilogy) do a great job of tearing them apart and revealing them to be overtly sexist, racist, and incoherent; but most importantly, just plain ol' bad games.

 

[TheAmokz]

The ending was a bit of a botch-job, but overall I'm personally glad I completed it. It's not that much time to commit, but I remember some boring or annoying sections. It's just nice to have a 'my version of the story' in my head for whenever I see other people's playthroughs.

I just finished the game (I figured I was pretty close) and I have to agree with what you just said completely.

Would my life be a hallow shell of an existence had I not finished it? No...it wasn't all that great. It certainly wasn't bad (and kind of as I predicted, I felt it did get much better once the pieces were actually in place long enough for me to care) so I'm happy I punched through it.

As for the ending (Spoilers obviously), that's where I really think the "Chronological order" would have really helped. Nathan (Willem Dafoe) could have had a very slow but well foreshadowed slip into madness; something I now see colored much of the game but I didn't know because we didn't see the beginning of that slip until the end of the game (the family dying). Instead, he goes from loving father figure to crazy McCoo Coo pants in a twenty minute span...

Although now I'm a bit disappointed that there probably won't be a sequel with the "Terminator Judgement Day"-esque ending (or at least that was my ending). If they could just iron out a lot of the problems, this game COULD have been absolutely epic and a model to show people what games can be...instead we get a very flawed half-movie that falls flat.

All well. I don't regret playing it so that's at least something, right?

Please tell me that you chose "Beyond" option at the end. Why? Because fuck Ryan, that's why, i never wanted to be romantically attached to that asshat but since game gave me no choice to tell him to fuck off i chose death just to spite him.

 

[tippy2k2]

Please tell me that you chose "Beyond" option at the end. Why? Because fuck Ryan, that's why, i never wanted to be romantically attached to that asshat but since game gave me no choice to tell him to fuck off i chose death just to spite him.

Well....this is awkward.

Not only did I choose Life, I chose Ryan as my...uh....life option or whatever you'd call that choice

I did hate him for the longest time. When he went in to kiss, I pushed him away. When we met for the mission, I gave him the old "for the sake of the mission, I'll try to make sure Aiden doesn't kill you...but no promises". Even when we were freezing, I told him, No, I didn't love him.

Something about his later actions at the office when he could have ran made me believe he does regret what he did (punching the General sure helped too). Yes, he was a giant tool (and still is kind of a tool) but he showed that he deeply cared for Jodie so I wanted to at least give him a chance.

 

[TP Potato]

Please tell me that you chose "Beyond" option at the end. Why? Because fuck Ryan, that's why, i never wanted to be romantically attached to that asshat but since game gave me no choice to tell him to fuck off i chose death just to spite him.

Well....this is awkward.

Not only did I choose Life, I chose Ryan as my...uh....life option or whatever you'd call that choice

I did hate him for the longest time. When he went in to kiss, I pushed him away. When we met for the mission, I gave him the old "for the sake of the mission, I'll try to make sure Aiden doesn't kill you...but no promises". Even when we were freezing, I told him, No, I didn't love him.

Something about his later actions at the office when he could have ran made me believe he does regret what he did (punching the General sure helped too). Yes, he was a giant tool (and still is kind of a tool) but he showed that he deeply cared for Jodie so I wanted to at least give him a chance.

I think the difficulty many people had with Ryan is due to the way the game jumps around the timeline. The first time you meet Ryan he is as an antagonistic government agent who is unsympathetic and trying to rip you away from the only family you've ever known. This is immediately followed up with a time jump to Jodie and Ryan casually hanging out and having feelings for each other, regardless of player input. Had there been a few bits in between to show these two bonding and getting to know each other it may have gone over better, but all the appearances outside of his arrival/dinner are missions and training montages, so you never really get to see that bonding time the relationship needed to resonate with players.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I don't suppose you'd have a guess for about what I've got left time-wise? I'm about halfway through Najavo and if it's the last of the good ones, I don't know if I would want to keep going...

Such potential wasted on such a dumb mistake. I have a feeling that if this was in chronological order, it would be FAR better. In it's condition, it's a bunch of disjointed events that mean nothing to me without the context of Jodie's experiences Homeless only worked so well because it was long enough to give me some context and meaning to latch onto...

One thing is certain. David Cage has no idea how to handle non-chronological storytelling. But don't kid yourself. The conclusion is terrible, and no amount of fiddling with narrative order would improve it. I'll drop you a hint: the game turns into Call of Duty.

No it doesn't. Call of Duty is less predictable and makes a hell of a lot more sense.

David Cage is a terrible writer. Some people think he's brilliant because he's able to do one thing well, he's able to make you emotionally invest in characters by putting them into vulnerable (and sometimes even interesting) situations but then he has no idea how to create a story that makes any sort of logical sense and falls back on cliches and total bullshit.

There are a total of 3 good scenes in Beyond Two Souls, and the rest is utter crap. Cage doesn't even do anything interesting with Aiden (without spoiling anything for the OP, Aiden turns out to be exactly what you think he is and spent the entire game really hoping he isn't).

But yeah, the absurd stupidity of the whole thing actually makes it worth playing. 4 words: Underwater Chinese Ghost Base.

 

[tippy2k2]

I think the difficulty many people had with Ryan is due to the way the game jumps around the timeline. The first time you meet Ryan he is as an antagonistic government agent who is unsympathetic and trying to rip you away from the only family you've ever known. This is immediately followed up with a time jump to Jodie and Ryan casually hanging out and having feelings for each other, regardless of player input. Had there been a few bits in between to show these two bonding and getting to know each other it may have gone over better, but all the appearances outside of his arrival/dinner are missions and training montages, so you never really get to see that bonding time the relationship needed to resonate with players.

That stuff certainly didn't help either. I know when it came to "The Dinner", I went at it with the mindset to ruin the dinner because my last experience with him was him being a complete asshat and Aiden knew he was a jerk. Turns out I probably am "supposed" to ruin the dinner but not because I think Ryan is a giant toolbox but because Aiden has a childish jealousy about her being in a relationship.

Not to keep harping on the same point but again, this feels like something that would have been better had the game been in chronological order instead of bouncing all over the place. It makes my decisions cold and calculating as a player rather than using my empathy to decide "What would Jodie/Aiden do?".

Hell, the more I thought about it, the more I realized the perfect example of this; how this was botched in "Not like other girls" (Where Jodie almost gets raped at the bar) versus Season 1 of Telltale's The Walking Dead (I will have a spoiler for Walking Dead here FYI)

Spoiler

In The Walking Dead, you have finally escaped a farmhouse where these guys are cannibals. You get into fistacuffs with one of the men and you have the option to unleash the killing blow when he's down or leave it be. In the heat of the moment, I killed that sum'*****.

Two Souls on the other hand, I'm not in the moment at all because all I see is a bratty teen throwing a giant fit. While that obviously does not mean she deserves to be raped, when it came time to exact my vigilante justice and gun down the bad guys, I was the cold and calculating tippy2k2 rather than uber pissed Aiden. "This is going to cause a mess that the agency is going to have to figure out how to fix" was my thought when it SHOULD have been "Those motherfuckers just tried to rape me...I will make sure they'll never do that again and dead men can't rape"

 

[tippy2k2]

No it doesn't. Call of Duty is less predictable and makes a hell of a lot more sense.

David Cage is a terrible writer. Some people think he's brilliant because he's able to do one thing well, he's able to make you emotionally invest in characters by putting them into vulnerable (and sometimes even interesting) situations but then he has no idea how to create a story that makes any sort of logical sense and falls back on cliches and total bullshit.

There are a total of 3 good scenes in Beyond Two Souls, and the rest is utter crap. Cage doesn't even do anything interesting with Aiden (without spoiling anything for the OP, Aiden turns out to be exactly what you think he is and spent the entire game really hoping he isn't).

But yeah, the absurd stupidity of the whole thing actually makes it worth playing. 4 words: Underwater Chinese Ghost Base.

The Chinese Ghost Base was a pretty interesting level (although I did feel kind of bad making Ryan lose his eye like that....sorry Ryan! I still didn't like you all that much at the time and I figured you and the American government would be really mad at me if I squealed).

As for Aiden, maybe everyone else is smarter then I am because I sure didn't see that coming...

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

No it doesn't. Call of Duty is less predictable and makes a hell of a lot more sense.

David Cage is a terrible writer. Some people think he's brilliant because he's able to do one thing well, he's able to make you emotionally invest in characters by putting them into vulnerable (and sometimes even interesting) situations but then he has no idea how to create a story that makes any sort of logical sense and falls back on cliches and total bullshit.

There are a total of 3 good scenes in Beyond Two Souls, and the rest is utter crap. Cage doesn't even do anything interesting with Aiden (without spoiling anything for the OP, Aiden turns out to be exactly what you think he is and spent the entire game really hoping he isn't).

But yeah, the absurd stupidity of the whole thing actually makes it worth playing. 4 words: Underwater Chinese Ghost Base.

The Chinese Ghost Base was a pretty interesting level (although I did feel kind of bad making Ryan lose his eye like that....sorry Ryan! I still didn't like you all that much at the time and I figured you and the American government would be really mad at me if I squealed).

As for Aiden, maybe everyone else is smarter then I am because I sure didn't see that coming...

The first thing I thought when I found out that Jodie had ghost powers was "wow, I hope they never explain this, I hope Aiden is just some weird benevolent being that haunts Jodie for no reason. I hope it doesn't turn out that Aiden is like her dead brother or something."

 

[Casual Shinji]

There are a total of 3 good scenes in Beyond Two Souls, and the rest is utter crap. Cage doesn't even do anything interesting with Aiden (without spoiling anything for the OP, Aiden turns out to be exactly what you think he is and spent the entire game really hoping he isn't).

Wait, which three are those? The only one I can think of is at the start of the Hobo arc where you can choose to jump to your death, which the game then doesn't even allow you to do.