Biden claims he will increase Police funding and it is infact Donald Trump who wants to defund the police also won't ban fracking

[crimson5pheonix]

You know, speaking of Mexican cartels and police.

There is a section of Mexico where the cartels have no hold. This very same section of Mexico have a fully defended police organization, as in their police are all, all, elected and receive no pay. Just members of the community. No federales. "Ironically", the part of Mexico that has totally rejected the Mexican federal government has the fewest cartel problems.

 

[Kae]

You know, speaking of Mexican cartels and police.

There is a section of Mexico where the cartels have no hold. This very same section of Mexico have a fully defended police organization, as in their police are all, all, elected and receive no pay. Just members of the community. No federales. "Ironically", the part of Mexico that has totally rejected the Mexican federal government has the fewest cartel problems.

Oh you mean the separatist Anarchist state of the "Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional", yep you're right, while they aren't as far left in the Anarchosocialist state as I would like with some issues, I very much agree that a Socialist Anarchy is the solution to this policing problem.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Oh you mean the separatist Anarchist state of the "Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional", yep you're right, while they aren't as far left in the Anarchosocialist state as I would like with some issues, I very much agree that a Socialist Anarchy is the solution to this policing problem.

(Finds on map) Literally the farthest possible state from US.

 

[Kae]

(Finds on map) Literally the farthest possible state from US.

While I have been to Chiapas once before I was only passing by so I couldn't visit, but I do wish to go there to see how living conditions truly are, but it's pretty neat to see that they've managed to maintain their community for close to 30 years, it's pretty funny this a thing that exists in México yet Capitalism has corrupted our society so far that people think that the clearly right leaning President we currently have is a leftist just because he has a few "Socialist" policies, despite the existence of a true left state in our country, but you know it's not really convenient for capitalism to get the word out on the fact that Anarchosocialist states can work for at least 26 years now, honestly it's laughable whenever I see people on the street celebrating the triumph of socialism because of the ass-clown that we currently have as president.

Anyway my plan was to go to space, since that's the one place that hasn't been corrupted by capitalism but between Elon Musk & The Doctor that plan is now ruined.

 

[dreng3]

Pretty obvious to me who the "cartel" already is in this equation.

Because obviously there can be no middle ground, either we must live in a full-on police state or, as you put it, a "Mad Max cartel" hellscape. Nope, no such a thing as just peacefully minding your own business, defending you and yours.

There is a middle ground, it is called "police catches criminals and don't repeatedly violate civil liberties or take political positions" it is being done in a ton of places and could work in the US.

What you're suggesting would essentially protect the people you're railing against. While most people might be willing to defend themselves against an armed intruder they most likely won't do anything to a car thief, or a corporation defrauding someone, or a white collar criminal. Instead those people, the ones with financial and political power would keep on as they always have, but now it would be without the threat of investigation and incarceration(with the hopes of reformation).

 

[Eacaraxe]

Instead those people, the ones with financial and political power would keep on as they always have, but now it would be without the threat of investigation and incarceration(with the hopes of reformation).

Yeah, I guess you're right, especially compared to the slew of investigations, prosecutions, and convictions that came out of the 2008 financial crisis, S&L crisis, Afghanistan and Panama Papers, Snowden Papers, and coronavirus insider trading and profiteering.

 

[dreng3]

Yeah, I guess you're right, especially compared to the slew of investigations, prosecutions, and convictions that came out of the 2008 financial crisis, S&L crisis, Afghanistan and Panama Papers, Snowden Papers, and coronavirus insider trading and profiteering.

Agreed, there were not enough arrests or investigations but there were still more than zero, and zero is the number there would be without any kind of enforcement. The answer is to improve and change policing institutions, not to get rid of them entirely.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Agreed, there were not enough arrests or investigations but there were still more than zero, and zero is the number there would be without any kind of enforcement. The answer is to improve and change policing institutions, not to get rid of them entirely.

You do realize the literally one guy who was convicted in the US, was convicted because he screwed the banks, not play a material role in the wholesale detonation of the economy. And all he got was an order to pay compensatory damages to banks, a million dollar fine, and thirty months in club fed. Just like Bernie Madoff, that's a case of the CJ system protecting capitol over people.

That's not justice, that's scapegoating and nationally-scaled DARVO. The only enforcement that exists now is in defense of the neoliberal, plutocratic status quo. A formal institution that was planned and purpose built for the sole purpose to protect the economic, political, and social interests of the wealthy against those of the poor, cannot nor ever will be possible to "reform". The very best one can ever hope for is temporary reprieve, until such a time as that system can be co-opted again to once again serve its original intended purpose.

 

[dreng3]

You do realize the literally one guy who was convicted in the US, was convicted because he screwed the banks, not play a material role in the wholesale detonation of the economy. And all he got was an order to pay compensatory damages to banks, a million dollar fine, and thirty months in club fed. Just like Bernie Madoff, that's a case of the CJ system protecting capitol over people.

That's not justice, that's scapegoating and nationally-scaled DARVO. The only enforcement that exists now is in defense of the neoliberal, plutocratic status quo. A formal institution that was planned and purpose built for the sole purpose to protect the economic, political, and social interests of the wealthy against those of the poor, cannot nor ever will be possible to "reform". The very best one can ever hope for is temporary reprieve, until such a time as that system can be co-opted again to once again serve its original intended purpose.

I have, several times, agreed that the system is bad that even though it is, by large, functioning as intended, that is not acceptable. But the solution is not to demolish everything, it is to fix the flaws.
I agree with you that it will only be temporary solution, someone will eventually manage to twist a reformed system back into a corrupt shape. It is the very nature of systems that govern behaviour that some of those governed will try to break the system. Hence it is important to be not only vigilant in protecting the functioning systems but also to address any new flaws or signs of corruption. And if the system is broken or corrupted efforts should be made to fix or cleanse it once again.

Despite all his flaws Jefferson had the right of it when he said that the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants. We have reached a point where the tree should be refreshed, and the tyrants are those corrupting the institutions meant to preserve liberty.

 

[lil devils x]

character limit

You have to keep in mind that I am NOT just talking about Mexico here when discussing the cartels. Zetas were trained by US special forces, and many of their leaders and members were either US citizens or raised in the US. Miguel Trevino Morales Grew up in my cousins neighborhood here in Texas. His family still lives here and he considers that " home". The gang wars he participated in and experienced here in the US prior to joining the Zetas is what actually prepared him to become leader of one of the worst cartels to ever exist, he just continued to use what he already learned here. Zetas had already taken over more states than any other cartel when they were finally reduced by US interference If it were not for the US interfering with their activity, they were set to take whatever they wanted. You have this imaginary scenario in your head of people being able to defend their homes and mind their own business. The worst of the worst cartels and militias will never allow that to happen. They will be your overlords you either join or pay protection to instead with no accountability.

What do you think happens when you dissolve the police? The police form their OWN gang. Hell we already have gangs in US police and Military, this would just give them more power since they no longer have anyone to answer to for their actions. As police, they at least sometimes have to be accountable due to public spotlight, all that would be gone since they no longer work for us. They work for themselves and those that pay protection money. It just then becomes a war zone for everyone due to rival gangs, militias and cartels all fighting for power and control. Those " self governed regions" you speak of ONLY exist because people like the Zetas decided they didn't want them yet. The second they change their mind and want the region, their peaceful little hidey hole ceases to exist.

Before they went to take over states in mexico, they STARTED here:

Notorious Zetas leader launched criminal career in Dallas area

Miguel Trevino Morales is the leader of the Zetas, world's most violent gang, accused of ordering or personally carrying out some 2,000 murders. He was arrested Monday by Mexican marines in Ciudad Juarez, just across the border from Texas.

www.wfaa.com

US-trained cartel terrorises Mexico
Founders of the Zetas drug gang learned special forces techniques at Ft. Bragg before waging a campaign of carnage.

Drug gang’s US roots

Founders of the Zetas drug gang learned special forces techniques at Ft. Bragg before waging a campaign of carnage.

www.aljazeera.com

Treviño Morales frequented Dallas, Texas with his family.[7] In 1993, he was apprehended in Dallas County and charged with avoiding police arrest, after he had tried to lose the cops in a police car chase that ended in a street dead end. He paid a $672-dollar fine and was subsequently released from the county prison. Few details are known of Treviño Morales's life in Dallas;[8] the U.S. authorities believe he learned about "power, money, weapons and the vast consumer market for illegal drugs" while living in Texas.[6] They also believe that he perceived an anti-Mexican bias among Americans, and especially towards Mexican immigrants like him. However, Treviño Morales considered Dallas his home because of his large family network that lives in the surrounding areas.[6] According to U.S. investigators, he was last seen in the Dallas area in 2005 after entering the United States illegally, where visited his family and was said to have been at a strip club.[5]

Miguel Treviño Morales - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Los Zetas (pronounced [los ˈsetas], Spanish for "The Zs") is a Mexican criminal syndicate,[13][14][15] regarded as one of the most dangerous of Mexico's drug cartels.
The Zetas' membership ranges from corrupt federal, state, and local police officers, and former U.S. Army personnel,[50][51][52][53] to ex-Kaibiles, the special forces of the Guatemalan military.[54] Over time, many of the Zetas' original thirty-one members have been killed or arrested; a number of younger men have filled the vacuum, but the group as currently extant remains far from the efficiency of their paramilitary origins.[55]

Los Zetas was partially responsible for a qualitative increase in violence during the Drug Wars. Because the cartel was quite new, it competed with more established cartels by using extreme brutality. This strategy proved effective and helped Los Zetas become one of the most powerful cartels in Mexico. However, other cartels began to copy the Zetas' brutal methods to ensure they could survive. This resulted in the violence in Mexico escalating qualitatively to much more brutal levels.[56]

Los Zetas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You have to understand THIS is the new cartels. THIS will be your police. They make our current police look like teletubbies by comparison. The unemployed police will just join these guys too. If the US government had not gone after them and stopped them, they would have just kept going. Without police and government inference, this new organized crime model will be the " new normal".

The only option we do have is to reform police, and hole them accountable , not just have a free for all making everything worse and impossible to fix.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Despite all his flaws Jefferson had the right of it when he said that the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants. We have reached a point where the tree should be refreshed, and the tyrants are those corrupting the institutions meant to preserve liberty.

And James Madison said on 26 June, 1787, during the Philadelphia Convention according to Robert Yates' notes,

"...In England, at this day, if elections were open to all classes of people, the property of the landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place. If these observations be just, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority..."

Speaking to the necessity and role of the Senate though he was, Madison's own commentary speaks to the level of class consciousness present among the Framers at the point of the Constitution's debate and drafting. Remember the circumstances behind the Convention's call to order, specifically Shay's Rebellion. Likewise mirrored in Federalist no. 10,

"... But the most common and durable source of factions has been the various and unequal distribution of property. Those who hold and those who are without property have ever formed distinct interests in society. Those who are creditors, and those who are debtors, fall under a like discrimination. A landed interest, a manufacturing interest, a mercantile interest, a moneyed interest, with many lesser interests, grow up of necessity in civilized nations, and divide them into different classes, actuated by different sentiments and views. The regulation of these various and interfering interests forms the principal task of modern legislation, and involves the spirit of party and faction in the necessary and ordinary operations of the government."

Now I have my own thoughts and opinions on Madison's preoccupation with class conflict between landed aristocracy versus the emerging merchant and petit-bourgeoisie in post-Revolutionary America, which aren't relevant to the thread so I'll spare them. But, what this does is establish that class consciousness has been present among the ruling class in America since the federal government's inception, and that the federal government itself has been purpose-built by, of, and for the ruling class to preserve and safeguard its vested financial, political, and social interest above and beyond that of the American proletariat.

Which is precisely why Jefferson's agrarian proto-socialism was existentially threatening to the country's northern mercantile class, as exemplified by neoliberals' favorite philandering founding father and perpetual sufferer of imposter syndrome, Alexander Hamilton. It is no small cause for wonder how much better off this country might be today had Aaron Burr's bullet found its target twenty-five years sooner.

 

[Gergar12]

Cool, now let's all go down the Delaware, and frack the living f out of it. What's that Biden doesn't agree, well too bad he says fracking is great. Let's frack in Delaware.

I will agree with fracking when democratic, and republican politicos agree to frack their own homes.

 

[lil devils x]

Cool, now let's all go down the Delaware, and frack the living f out of it. What's that Biden doesn't agree, well too bad he says fracking is great. Let's frack in Delaware.

I will agree with fracking when democratic, and republican politicos agree to frack their own homes.

To be clear, I am 100% against fracking. HOWEVER, it isn't a priority right now because oil companies aren't expanding it.

Sinking oil demand, drop in prices put U.S. fracking activity on track for a record monthly decline: report

Signs of a further drop in U.S. crude-oil production are everywhere, from a slowdown in fracking activity and sharp weekly declines in the active oil-rig...

www.marketwatch.com

It is declining on it's own already, so rendering it a non issue.
It is safe bet to claim you are not against fracking when they are already cutting it back in order to get support from those who work in that field and their employers, because it is already in record decline. He can safely say that and get support from those workers while not actually having to approve anymore fracking to begin with. He needs support in regions that work in this industry to feed their families in order to flip some GOP regions, so it looks like he is pining for their votes too.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Cool, now let's all go down the Delaware, and frack the living f out of it. What's that Biden doesn't agree, well too bad he says fracking is great. Let's frack in Delaware.

I will agree with fracking when democratic, and republican politicos agree to frack their own homes.

Oh that happens way away from where they live, they don't have to care. But in the spirit of energy independence their homes should be moved to survey the land for oil, just in case. You never know.

 

[lil devils x]

Oh that happens way away from where they live, they don't have to care. But in the spirit of energy independence their homes should be moved to survey the land for oil, just in case. You never know.

Yea, they can use eminent domain and take the property regardless that way there is no one there to complain.
Oklahoma is now like one of the most active seismic zones in the US due to fracking.

Parts of Oklahoma now have the same earthquake risk as California — and a new study found a scarily direct link to fracking

In a new paper, researchers show strong connections between the size of earthquakes in Oklahoma the depth of hydraulic fracturing drill sites.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Eacaraxe]

He can safely say that and get support from those workers while not actually having to approve anymore fracking to begin with. He needs support in regions that work in this industry to feed their families in order to flip some GOP regions, so it looks like he is pining for their votes too.

I am literally going to have to post this in every thread until Nov. 3rd, aren't I.



That was tried once, it didn't work, it's how we got Trump in the first place. Try another strategy that doesn't depend on imaginary voters, for the love of Christ. I swear, the anti-Biden people are taking this fuckin' election more seriously than the pro-Biden people. Because god damn even after 2016 I didn't think I'd ever try to see a group of people try so hard to lose an election, and justify losing it before the fact.

Literally all Biden would have to do to win Appalachia -- not just the coal belt swing states, all of it -- is promise a day-one executive order ordering federal LEO to no longer enforce marijuana prohibition, a day-one executive order vacating non-violent marijuana possession and trafficking offenses nationwide, and seek legislation for national legalization. Fuck this fracking ish. There's your environmental, jobs, economy, and criminal justice policy all in one fell swoop.

 

[lil devils x]

I am literally going to have to post this in every thread until Nov. 3rd, aren't I.

View attachment 849

That was tried once, it didn't work, it's how we got Trump in the first place. Try another strategy that doesn't depend on imaginary voters, for the love of Christ. I swear, the anti-Biden people are taking this fuckin' election more seriously than the pro-Biden people. Because god damn even after 2016 I didn't think I'd ever try to see a group of people try so hard to lose an election, and justify losing it before the fact.

Literally all Biden would have to do to win Appalachia -- not just the coal belt swing states, all of it -- is promise a day-one executive order ordering federal LEO to no longer enforce marijuana prohibition, a day-one executive order vacating non-violent marijuana possession and trafficking offenses nationwide, and seek legislation for national legalization. Fuck this fracking ish. There's your environmental, jobs, economy, and criminal justice policy all in one fell swoop.

How do you flip ALABAMA?Georgia? Without getting conservative votes? look at WHO they are voting for and listen to what the voters in those regions are telling us they believe. That is part of Appalachia as well .I have to listen to people who would otherwise be liberals telling me they have to vote for whoever is pro oil because otherwise they can't support their families. Sometimes that is more important to them than any other issue due to needing it to survive. That is all they hear about while working, about how they will be out of work if they vote against oil.

 

[Eacaraxe]

How do you flip ALABAMA?Georgia?

I've already tried talking to you about this several times. I've made my points beyond clear, repeatedly, over multiple threads across multiple different forums now. If you haven't listened at literally any point before now, you're not going to listen now. You're asking that in bad faith, because you're not interested in a conversation about that and this is a waste of my time.

 

[lil devils x]

I've already tried talking to you about this several times. I've made my points beyond clear, repeatedly, over multiple threads across multiple different forums now. If you haven't listened at literally any point before now, you're not going to listen now. You're asking that in bad faith, because you're not interested in a conversation about that and this is a waste of my time.

That is just it, I have listened to everything you have stated. You said we don't need conservatives to win, but it isn't true. You have to look at the details of all the districts needed to flip those regions and listen to what the voters there are telling us. You said that we would be better off if we disbanded the police, that isn't true. Disagreeing isn't arguing in bad faith. I just do not think you are being realistic is all. You have to look at all the angles and the cause and effect. I'm sorry if that upsets you. You don't have to respond

 

[Eacaraxe]

That is just it, I have listened to everything you have stated.

Really, if you have why do I keep bringing up marijuana legalization as an environmental justice policy and a jobs policy uniquely suited to post-fossil fuels Appalachian economic development? Chop chop, not a rhetorical question, I'm waiting. It's only been the centerpiece of most posts I've written about this specific topic.