Biden says he does not regret Afghanistan withdrawal as Taliban take over more towns

Terminal Blue

Elite Member
Legacy
Feb 18, 2010
3,923
1,792
118
Country
United Kingdom
Depends who you ask. I've come across people who have argued that every single invasion the Soviets carried out was self-defence, justified because of the threat of Western imperialism. Their failure to comprehend the Soviet Union (and before and after it, Russia) as an imperialist power was something I found somewhat disturbing.
I think to some extent Soviet imperialism was rationalized as self-defence, but I think that's true of a lot of Imperialism. Heck, even in the 19th century British foreign policy was often rationalized as the need to protect the world from the scary Russian octopus (I don't know what octopi did to 19th century British people).

I mean, the Soviet war experience is very different from that of Western countries. For most of Soviet history, the fact that half the country was occupied by genocidal invaders was still within living memory of a lot of people. I think it's entirely understandable that Soviet strategic planning would prioritize creating a "buffer zone" of Soviet-aligned dependent states and/or SSRs surrounding the Soviet Union itself. It's still Imperialism and it still sucks real bad, but it's understandable as a form of defensive planning.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,855
3,560
118
Country
United States of America
I still find it hilarious that you're using this negotiated treaty as a justification for intervening... which immediately included breaking the treaty itself and overthrowing/ assassinating the people who agreed to it. Its one of the shabbiest lines of reasoning I've ever seen.
Was keeping a particular leader in power a treaty stipulation or are you just making that up? The Soviet-Afghan Friendship Treaty was negotiated by an Afghan government that was not entirely under the control of any one person. Taraki and Amin were the most influential at the time; between then and the Soviet intervention, Taraki was assassinated on the orders of Amin.

It was a mess. The Soviets, in reaction to a situation in which leaders were purging and assassinating rivals without apparent shame, chose to get rid of one of those that was doing that to apparent great excess in a situation that they'd been dragged into by treaty obligation. Horror of horrors.

I mean, you're in here defending a kleptocratic puppet government established by the USSR.
The Parcham faction wasn't as radical as the Khalqists, but that hardly makes them kleptocrats like the US-installed regime.

And the government that you're now implying has more moral authority in asking for intervention... is the one that the USSR overthrew.
Subsequent to their intervention.

And sort of but not really. It's like if Canada had agreed to help the United States against some kind of domestic insurgency around February of 2017, and then the Republican Party started murdering a bunch of people, including Democratic Party members of Congress and the Senate and their staff, and then Mike Pence had Donald Trump assassinated and assumed the presidency himself during Canada's escalating deployment at the request of Congress and the President. It's sort of the same government, but if Canada decided, while they were there, to overthrow Mike Pence and let power fall to a Democrat that was Speaker of the House at the beginning of the Republican reign of terror, it would still be the same government in nearly every respect that matters, and party to the same treaties as before even though that series of events is wild as fuck. As regards Afghanistan, we're talking about a government that was barely a year old which was undergoing a series of purges and assassinations that would make Robespierre blush.

And you're also justifying the overthrow. So that moral authority obviously counts for jack shit to you anyway.
The Parcham faction was also involved in the formation of the government that negotiated that treaty, so... no. The reason the Soviets were in the country at all was the treaty. Do you contend that, considering that they were there already, they should have ignored that the government's leadership was chosen by a long series of murders, and that this "death solves all problems; no man no problem" style of leadership had also exacerbated the very same insurgency the Soviets were there to combat? Would that have been better? Would it have satisfied your very principled anti-imperialist soul?
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
12,255
6,460
118
Country
United Kingdom
Was keeping a particular leader in power a treaty stipulation or are you just making that up? The Soviet-Afghan Friendship Treaty was negotiated by an Afghan government that was not entirely under the control of any one person. Taraki and Amin were the most influential at the time; between then and the Soviet intervention, Taraki was assassinated on the orders of Amin.

It was a mess. The Soviets, in reaction to a situation in which leaders were purging and assassinating rivals without apparent shame, chose to get rid of one of those that was doing that to apparent great excess in a situation that they'd been dragged into by treaty obligation. Horror of horrors.
Oh yes, I'm sure overthrowing the government was exactly what that same government had in mind when they agreed it. Are you actually joking?

I also note that purging and assassinating rivals is being used as justification for someone else purging and assassinating rivals.

The Parcham faction wasn't as radical as the Khalqists, but that hardly makes them kleptocrats like the US-installed regime.
Translated: it's okay when they do it.

Subsequent to their intervention.

And sort of but not really. It's like if Canada had agreed to help the United States against some kind of domestic insurgency around February of 2017, and then the Republican Party started murdering a bunch of people, including Democratic Party members of Congress and the Senate and their staff, and then Mike Pence had Donald Trump assassinated and assumed the presidency himself during Canada's escalating deployment at the request of Congress and the President. It's sort of the same government, but if Canada decided, while they were there, to overthrow Mike Pence and let power fall to a Democrat that was Speaker of the House at the beginning of the Republican reign of terror, it would still be the same government in nearly every respect that matters, and party to the same treaties as before even though that series of events is wild as fuck. As regards Afghanistan, we're talking about a government that was barely a year old which was undergoing a series of purges and assassinations tha1t would make Robespierre blush.
....And then Canada purged the American politicians who had espoused non-alignment, and then occupied the US for 10 years, characterised by the military use of torture, rape, and civilian abduction and massacre.


The Parcham faction was also involved in the formation of the government that negotiated that treaty, so... no. The reason the Soviets were in the country at all was the treaty. Do you contend that, considering that they were there already, they should have ignored that the government's leadership was chosen by a long series of murders, and that this "death solves all problems; no man no problem" style of leadership had also exacerbated the very same insurgency the Soviets were there to combat? Would that have been better? Would it have satisfied your very principled anti-imperialist soul?
I contend that the appropriate response to a repressive foreign government is not to overthrow it, purge the party of ideological opponents, and then occupy the country for 10 years.

The Soviets continued the "death solves all problems; no man, no problem" style of leadership. This is exactly the behaviour you're defending. So don't act for a second as if they acted to put a stop to brutal, unstable governance.

What would satisfy me is just the tiniest bit of consistency in the standards you apply to different world powers.
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

Get the point
Legacy
Aug 1, 2011
2,946
523
118
Cretaceous
Country
USA
Gender
Dinosaur

If things couldn't get worse for Afghanistan, it seems that a drought is happening around the same time that could cause a famine. Add on to the fact that that it has new fanatical leadership, with them inheriting a bunch of institutions only kept afloat by American aid that even then had trouble paying its Army to begin with, ISIS may be planning an attack on Kaul which could cause diplomatic issues, many of the top Minds leaving, the Northern Alliance group still holding out near mining materials which will make it impossible to dig up those resources, protests happening in other areas unhappy with the new leadership, the removal of women's rights which will cause issues, high-tech equipment that needs a bunch of money to be maintained (honestly it would probably be better if they just sold a lot of it keeping stuff like the helicopter is dumb.) and a Large army they promised a bunch of stuff too so a lot of resources will have to go to paying them all or risk them overthrowing the leadership.

...Afghanistan can't catch a break.
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

Get the point
Legacy
Aug 1, 2011
2,946
523
118
Cretaceous
Country
USA
Gender
Dinosaur
Last edited:

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Jun 6, 2008
36,515
3,716
118

looks like after 40 years, the Taliban will have complete control. it's depressing that the Northern Alliance is going to surrender understandable if they sell no other option.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Seanchaidh

bluegate

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2010
2,406
1,015
118

looks like after 40 years, the Taliban will have complete control. it's depressing that the Northern Alliance is going to surrender understandable if they sell no other option.
Now the question remains, will we have a new North Korea in the world in 40 years, or will the Taliban get kicked out through internal revolution or whatever in the upcoming years?
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

Get the point
Legacy
Aug 1, 2011
2,946
523
118
Cretaceous
Country
USA
Gender
Dinosaur
I don't think we should post for propaganda pieces when discussing Afghanistan fall. Afghanistan government was corrupt and incompetent but I feel like the Taliban will be much worse.

Now the question remains, will we have a new North Korea in the world in 40 years, or will the Taliban get kicked out through internal revolution or whatever in the upcoming years?
At best they will be another Iran but since they shot down any talk of democracy I'm betting more Saudi Arabia but poor.
 

Revnak

We must imagine Sisyphus horny
Legacy
May 25, 2020
2,944
3,099
118
Country
USA
I don't think we should post for propaganda pieces when discussing Afghanistan fall. Afghanistan government was corrupt and incompetent but I feel like the Taliban will be much worse.
You’re literally doing the logic that got the US in Afghanistan in the first place, dismissing criticism of who the US allies with because their opposition has already been framed as unacceptable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: crimson5pheonix

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Jun 6, 2008
36,515
3,716
118
I don't think we should post for propaganda pieces when discussing Afghanistan fall. Afghanistan government was corrupt and incompetent but I feel like the Taliban will be much worse.
A new Northern Alliance, dominated then, as it is now, by the fundamentalist Jamiat-e Islami party, isn’t likely to be much better for women than the Taliban is. In the early 1990s, its various warlords — including Dostum and Massoud’s father — created a “human rights catastrophe” for women in the country, in the words of a 1995 Amnesty International report, restricting a variety of fundamental rights for women — including mandating full-body veils — on the basis that they were un-Islamic.


They did much the same when they took back power in the 2000s, setting up conditions that by some accounts were worse than under the Taliban. One aid worker told Amnesty about life in Northern Alliance–controlled territories: “During the Taliban era, if a woman went to market and showed an inch of flesh she would have been flogged; now she’s raped.” Though Western press has tended to give the impression the Taliban are singularly and uniquely hostile to women’s rights in the country, they are sadly one outgrowth of Afghanistan’s wider sociopolitical context, which kept those rights severely restricted all the years of the US occupation.
No.
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

Get the point
Legacy
Aug 1, 2011
2,946
523
118
Cretaceous
Country
USA
Gender
Dinosaur
You’re literally doing the logic that got the US in Afghanistan in the first place, dismissing criticism of who the US allies with because their opposition has already been framed as unacceptable.
It's not a news article, it's an opinion piece, I will admit it not right to dismiss it and it raises good points about the corruption in the Afghanistan government. the people of Panjshir are a group of people who have always fought against the Taliban before and do not want to be ruled by them and are terrified with the Taliban will do to them. This is more than just the corrupt government trying to get power back.

Also, I am not chilling for America, America since day one fucked up when it comes to Afghanistan, bombings, not understanding of the people, gross incompetence in building the Afghanistan government to straight-up going to war in the first place and of course our exit. It is a truly fucked-up situation.

I will also add that pulling out was the right decision because at that point there was nothing we could do

Despite all of that I don't think the Taliban is going to make things better for people, So many people are leaving for a reason, and it is not just because some of them are collaborators. I don't think I need to explain all the stuff the Taliban has done although I could be lazy and just show you the Wikipedia page.


Also as I mentioned earlier Afghanistan in a lot of ways is fucked

recape

If things couldn't get worse for Afghanistan, it seems that a drought is happening around the same time that could cause a famine. Add on to the fact that that it has new fanatical leadership, with them inheriting a bunch of institutions only kept afloat by American aid that even then had trouble paying its Army to begin with, ISIS may be planning an attack on Kaul which could cause diplomatic issues, many of the top Minds leaving, the Northern Alliance group still holding out near mining materials which will make it impossible to dig up those resources, protests happening in other areas unhappy with the new leadership, the removal of women's rights which will cause issues, high-tech equipment that needs a bunch of money to be maintained (honestly it would probably be better if they just sold a lot of it keeping stuff like the helicopter is dumb.) and a Large army they promised a bunch of stuff too so a lot of resources will have to go to paying them all or risk them overthrowing the leadership.
I don't see a good future for Afghanistan, and I don't buy their bullshit that they "changed." and everyone thinking that is my opinion naive.
 

Jarrito3002

Elite Member
Jun 28, 2016
582
483
68
Country
United States
I am not going to go hard in about who is worse here but can we all agree that the US trying to make bank and money under the guise of "promoting democracy", the Taliban being well the Taliban and ANA not being worth a squirrel shit this whole situation was one big race to the bottom and tryin to say who was the worst out of it when really all parties don't exist or function with out the other is missing the forest for the trees.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,855
3,560
118
Country
United States of America
Oh yes, I'm sure overthrowing the government was exactly what that same government had in mind when they agreed it. Are you actually joking?
Pretty sure what they had in mind was the presence of Soviet troops, which is what they got.

I also note that purging and assassinating rivals is being used as justification for someone else purging and assassinating rivals.
One rival. Who did that to great excess.

Translated: it's okay when they do it.
You haven't referred to a single thing that would indicate that the Parcham faction in general or Karmal in particular were kleptocratic. You've just called them that because clearly they have to be as bad in every way as the US puppet regime.

....And then Canada purged the American politicians who had espoused non-alignment,
Karmal would be Nancy Pelosi in this scenario (truly the darkest timeline), not Canada. Also, it's weird that you keep mentioning "espousing non-alignment" as the reason for purges when Karmal's faction had been terrorized and murdered by the people they were purging.

and then occupied the US for 10 years, characterised by the military use of torture, rape, and civilian abduction and massacre
Not exactly an exceptional description of a military presence which, I'll remind, was requested by the Afghan government. Unlike the US military presence, which had soldiers randomly shooting people for no reason among other things.

I contend that the appropriate response to a repressive foreign government is not to overthrow it, purge the party of ideological opponents, and then occupy the country for 10 years.
Karmal is not the Soviet Union.

The Soviets continued the "death solves all problems; no man, no problem" style of leadership. This is exactly the behaviour you're defending. So don't act for a second as if they acted to put a stop to brutal, unstable governance.
When he came to power, Karmal promised an end to executions; when his government set up revolutionary troikas to do the opposite of that, the Soviets protested. And then what happened? They didn't kill him. Imagine that.

What would satisfy me is just the tiniest bit of consistency in the standards you apply to different world powers.
The fact that you can't seem to recognize clear differences in character between what the Soviets did in Afghanistan and what the USA did in Afghanistan suggests that you have no standards whatsoever beyond cynicism toward every target of western imperial ire. The Soviets were invited by the government of Afghanistan into a messy situation in which they ended up getting their hands very dirty. That situation was made a lot more challenging because of the meddling of the CIA. The USA, on the other hand, invaded a country that wanted nothing whatsoever to do with them. They then ignored a peace offer that would have delivered the supposed target of the war, Osama Bin-Laden, and occupied the country for twenty years profiting from the opium trade (itself a result of CIA meddling during the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan) and transferring fortunes to military contractors and weapons companies (their own ruling class). The Soviets suffered for their intervention in Afghanistan, were reluctant to go in the first place; the USA made any excuse to stay, lied to its people about the situation on the ground, and its ruling class suffered apparently so little that two decades later their media arms are still enthusiastically making the case for war. For feminism! Oh, and rare minerals!
 

Gergar12

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
4,029
887
118
Country
United States
I hope we bring as many Afgan translators in as possible. I mean many in the US complain immigrants don't know English, well these people do. the excuse on the right basically amounts to because they are Muslim there is a non-zero chance they will commit a terrorist act. Meanwhile, we have compounds of people with guns in the US that are the real-nonzero threat of terrorism.