Bioshock Infinite: About the criticism of Violence

[Frybird]

(Sorry if there had been a thread already, i used the search function, honest!)

(No spoilers about the ending or something here, just so you know)

Soo, yeah.

A lot of people seem to have a bit of an issue with the extreme violence depicted in Bioshock Infinite.

At the forefront, we have a well written piece from Chris Plante at Polygon that may probably did started the whole thing: http://www.polygon.com/2013/4/2/4174344/opinion-why-my-wife-wont-play-bioshock-infinite

And if you like a broader spectrum of quotes as well as more pretty pictures, we have Kotaku (of course): http://kotaku.com/bioshock-infinite-is-insanely-ridiculously-violent-it-470524003

In my opinion:

Well...it's pretty hard to tell.

On one hand, i am of the opinion that Bioshock Infinite absolutely needs some of it's extreme violence.
Many people who criticise mention the moment the game first becomes an actual First Person Shooter/Action Game, that starts with Booker shoving a policemans Face violently into the spinning hooks of death (to prevent that he does it to him first).

Interestingly enough, it's one of the moments were the violence of the game is most poignant and important.
People tend to forget that:
1) Violence is in itself usually extreme and shocking.
2) Booker is not a nice person. At all. And he obviously resorts to violence since he is not in Columbia to claim any kind of moral superiority.

In a way, it irks me that especially Bioshock Infinite is now made to be the poster boy for "unneccesariy violence" when it does in fact handles it's depiction better than most other games. As said above, the first outburst of violence is horrifying. The first time Elizabeth sees Booker murdering a bunch of people (in self-defense), it's not something that is shrugged off immediately and even though Bookers actions in that scene are somewhat justified, it paints a negative light on him, as it kind of should be. And even when Elizabeth becomes more "mature" and desensitized to violence, she still gasps and shrieks when a kill is especially violent.

---

But at the same time, i can't deny that Bioshock Infinite DOES get over the top with it's violence. While i feel Blood and Brutal Beatdowns are needed, the way heads occasionally explode due to the exposure to electricity or the spinning hooks of death, feels almost embarrassingly comical and the way people get massacred in this game has often nothing to do with realism or even poignancy.
And of course, while Elizabeth does react appropriate to SOME of the violence, she will still open locks and give you money with a cheery tone while she is wading through the burned and mutilated remains of your enemies.


And that is the thing...there is no easy answer to whether or not Bioshock Infinite should be as violent as it is, and i see it as a problem that people already start to form opinions in absolute terms.

We need to stop seeing violence in a game as a whole, but in it's multiple contextual situation, and start judging violence on whether it is important to the narrative (good) or used to pull in a certain kind of gorehound market (bad..in BSI) as well as of course, what the target demographic of a game is (not in terms of age, but in terms of what the customer wants to get out of the game).

There shouldn't be any hiding behind broad statements here. Bioshock Infinite shouldn't be shamed for it's violence, and it shouldn't let be entirely of the hook for it (Except when you have a good reason why heads should pop or why the contextual violence should be toned down).

...It's kinda my problem with ALL the controversies in the gaming biz nowadays.

 

[Bertylicious]

I didn't think it was that violent, but then I'm a bit numb to such things. Saying that though, surely the theme of juxtaposing the "perfect" America in the clouds with the casual inhumanity of racism, elitism, oppression, hypocrisy demands the kind of cartoony violence that was on offer. I mean to say; the whole point was that it was a pretty barbaric place.

So yeah, the violence was in context, I reckon, in the same way as the violence in The Walking Dead.

EDIT: By which I mean I agree with you.

EDIT EDIT: But is being a "gorehound" so bad? Does the artist not have a right to persue a punky project based around spatter? Didn't do no harm to Peter Jackson after all.

We love to be horrified almost as much as we yearn to indulge our sadistic desires to watch an antagonist burst like a blood sausage in a blender. We could lie to ourselves, of course, like the victorians. We could decry such desires as lust and voyeurism and cruelty as fundamentally immorral, drives that must be denied and that exposure to such material has the effect of contaminating our pure selves, but in so doing we would deny only ourselves. Bioshocl Infinite is just one example among many fictional and non-fictional tales that caution us against such action.

 

[Frybird]

EDIT: But is being a "gorehound" so bad? Does the artist not have a right to persue a punky project based around spatter? Didn't do no harm to Peter Jackson after all.

We love to be horrified almost as much as we yearn to indulge our sadistic desires to watch an antagonist burst like a blood sausage in a blender. We could lie to ourselves, of course, like the victorians. We could decry such desires as lust and voyeurism and cruelty as fundamentally immorral, drives that must be denied and that exposure to such material has the effect of contaminating our pure selves, but in so doing we would deny only ourselves. Bioshocl Infinite is just one example among many fictional and non-fictional tales that caution us against such action.

To quote myself:

or used to pull in a certain kind of gorehound market (bad..in BSI) as well as of course, what the target demographic of a game is (not in terms of age, but in terms of what the customer wants to get out of the game).

I'm not saying that being a "gorehound" is bad (although i admit i don't quite get it), but i'm saying i'd be bad when a game like Bioshock Infinite would specifically pander to this crowd, because i do not thing that is thier main demographic and i'd delude the meaning and themes of the game.

In other games, it may be a different case.
Games like...i don't know, Resident Evil or Dead Space (with all it's "Cut of thier limbs" stuff) or Carmageddon...would be equally wrong in toning down the ridiculous gore effects so that Soccer Mom and her kids can play it.

Captcha: "don't waste time"...F**k you Captcha! I ain't gonna reduce my points to simple "TL;DR" sentences just because some people aren't able to read more information than a Twitter Post would provide.

 

[Rickin10]

I really have no idea what you're going on about. You say extreme violence like it's a bad thing!

Violence is always the best policy. That's what I teach my kids when we all sit down together to play some good ol Call of Duty. What we really need to focus on is keeping our children away from the evils of nudity and sex. And possibly thoughtful narratives, which I note developers try to occasionally blind-side us with sometimes. It's the Devil's work. Honestly, if folk shot more and thought less, world'd be a better place you ask me.

 

[Extra-Ordinary]

Wow, this is the first I've heard of complaints about the violence.
Anyway.
I'll admit, I was taken aback a bit when I saw the face-in-the-skyhook part. I was starting to think that this was a pretty violent game for game's usual standards. Then I saw heads coming off and I was like "Yeah, this is WAY more violent that the original Bioshocks."
In any case, I don't see why it's so bad. It really kind of added to Booker's character. Like you said, he's a pretty bad guy, and the way he takes out the worse guys really solidifies that. Not to mention that the game is very aware of exactly how violent it is. Elizabeth really breaks down after watching you get violent for the first time, and you feel BAD about it. It really makes you stop and remember "Wow, I am doing some bad things..."
In any case, I feel like the violence fits. To me, the extreme violence ADDS to the game, doesn't take away. But then again, I'm a little biased, but I'm sure that doesn't mean that my thoughts mean NOTHING.
On top of all that, most of the people you fight are a bunch of racist bigots, just throwing that out there.
I's surprised there wasn't more controversy over THAT, the racism.
I know there is a little, but I mean, MORE.

 

[Frybird]

In any case, I feel like the violence fits. To me, the extreme violence ADDS to the game, doesn't take away. But then again, I'm a little biased, but I'm sure that doesn't mean that my thoughts mean NOTHING.

While i generally agree, i do still have a problem for when the violence does get too cartoony. I just don't see how popping heads off like balloons in every other encounter does add to the game.

That's the parts where the violence, for me, switched from "narratively sound" to "distractingly exploitative"

 

[Ickorus]

I'm guessing few others noticed it but when Elizabeth is nearby when you perform a melee execution she gasps in horror of it, I thought that was a nice touch and I never did it again after that.

Perhaps that was all coincidence though, who knows.

 

[JudgeGame]

I think most people would have to agree the best parts of Bioshock Infinite are the parts with no violence at all. If it were an adventure game it might have been even more enjoyable. I'm not against isolated moments of extreme gore like the raffle scene but spending most of the running time mowing down hordes of identical NPCs was boring, jarring and detracted from the experience. There's an early point where the game informs you sometimes shooting is not the best option, but then it gives you no other option 90% of the time. I think we can do better.

 

[Bug MuIdoon]

Firstly

.

Damn your avatar! I actually blew on my screen to get rid of it twice, ha ha



I didn't really notice it being a particularly violent game other than the aforementioned skyhook scene or the part where you

Spoiler: spoiler

kill Comstock

, but I don't think the latter was as violent as

Spoiler: spoiler

when you beat Andrew Ryan to death with a golf club

in the original Bioshock. Maybe I'm just desensitised to violence though?

I'm not sure why it's being called out on it's violence though. Most of it is in context towards the story and setting. I mean, it's nothing like the 'Original Poster Boy for Violent Video Games', Grand Theft Auto, which, let's face it, is mostly violent for the sake of being violent. I'm not saying I agree with peoples complaints against GTA (I love GTA!) but I can understand their quarrel much more than towards BioShock.

 

[IronMit]

It's a legitimate concern.

From an arty farty perspective:

Imagine you have never read a book before...you can read a good book (provided you can read)..without realising what's a rubbish trope or what's expected from the medium and not find it jarring or not have your immersion broken. I have never read something random and had someone defend it 'well it's a book..it has to have these random immersion breaking moments in it'

Now imagine you have never watched a movie, you can watch (a good movie); bladerunner, the departed, wizard of oz, or judge dredd, terminator etc etc etc. In each movie any violence, or dialogue, action sequences, set pieces come together to be quite consistent. You won't realise what's a silly trope or not...unless the movie is rubbish.

Then you play a game for the first time..you play bioshock. everything telling you the rules of the universe points to a bit of realism in this 'what if' universe. Add a bit of magic. Then all of a sudden you are mowing down hordes of enemies......why? 'because it's a video game'.

Enter justifications that it is ok, because Elizabeth gasps about it..it's still jarring to suddenly be a super soldier after everything leading up to that point

It's like watching an episode of 'friends' or another US sitcom...there's a sad scene ..but then someone makes a random joke and you hear everyone laugh. If you had never seen that before you will be confused. It's good for a pre-defined genre, it will win comedy awards..but from an art perspective it is broken.
Just like bioshock is a reallly really good FPS + story game. It will win awards...but as a piece of art it is broken.

The games that stand out like portal 1,2, ico, shadow of the colossus, zelda, dark souls, etc don't suffer from this randomness. All individual aspects add up to make the game as arty farty as possible.
Even Metal gear solid, Halo etc are consistent to their universe.

Do I make sense? lol. I don't know.

All the pre marketing about bioshock infinite taking massive risks is absolute rubbish. What is risky about putting a good story on a FPS template? It's the default thing to do

 

[Frybird]

It's a legitimate concern.

From an arty farty perspective:

Imagine you have never read a book before...you can read a good book (provided you can read)..without realising what's a rubbish trope or what's expected from the medium and not find it jarring or not have your immersion broken. I have never read something random and had someone defend it 'well it's a book..it has to have these random immersion breaking moments in it'

Now imagine you have never watched a movie, you can watch (a good movie); bladerunner, the departed, wizard of oz, or judge dredd, terminator etc etc etc. In each movie any violence, or dialogue, action sequences, set pieces come together to be quite consistent. You won't realise what's a silly trope or not...unless the movie is rubbish.

Then you play a game for the first time..you play bioshock. everything telling you the rules of the universe points to a bit of realism in this 'what if' universe. Add a bit of magic. Then all of a sudden you are mowing down hordes of enemies......why? 'because it's a video game'.

Enter justifications that it is ok, because Elizabeth gasps about it..it's still jarring to suddenly be a super soldier after everything leading up to that point

It's like watching an episode of 'friends' or another US sitcom...there's a sad scene ..but then someone makes a random joke and you hear everyone laugh. If you had never seen that before you will be confused. It's good for a pre-defined genre, it will win comedy awards..but from an art perspective it is broken.
Just like bioshock is a reallly really good FPS + story game. It will win awards...but as a piece of art it is broken.

Then again, you tend to ignore that violence is still a part of the story, and a very prominent one at that.

And even though you don't use it for an hour or so, one of the very first things that happens is that the protagonist (a man with a violent past) is handed a gun, and the motivation (from his knowledge at that point at least, not trying to spoil the story here) is to basically kidnap a girl despite expected resistance. A greater section of the game is set within a violent armed conflict...

...Actually...i don't really get what you think "The Art is Broken" is supposed to mean. Going by your "Friends" Example, are you trying to say that "the art is broken" once the atmosphere strays the least bit from what the genre demands. In that case, the "art" is also "broken" in The Departed (for having the slightest bits of comic relief) or The Wizard of Oz (for being a bit scary)

All the pre marketing about bioshock infinite taking massive risks is absolute rubbish. What is risky about putting a good story on a FPS template? It's the default thing to do

I think you overestimate the current market.
Starting off an FPS that has been very much advertised as such (taken from trailers and tv spots) with an hour or so before the actual gameplay starts and having an ending that is...complicated, complex and very meta to say the least seems to me quite risky, and no AAA game could get the backing for stuff like that unless the previous successes make it a safer bet.

(It's actually the same as with movies. I don't think any studio executive would've greenlit Inception if it weren't for Nolan doing so well with the Batman Movies. Even though it's much less complex and does not screw around as much with your head as many make it out to be, it was still a very risky movie to do with a Hollywood Budget)

 

[Parallel Streaks]

Like a lot of people in this thread I've been desensitized to a disturbing point, so the violence wasn't much of a problem for me. I didn't really do a "melee" kind of Booker however, so I may have missed out on some of the worst points. I would say the over the top violence would be a problem if the game's content wasn't so incredibly dark, but it always feels like it fits into that cruel but exaggerated universe.

I'll have more sleepless nights over those poor Handymen than breaking a guy's face, anyhow..

 

[Zhukov]

I thought the violence was a bit over the top.

However, not in the sense of "Oh, that's horrible". Rather, in a, "Yeah, that's pretty silly" kind of way.

The violent bits are fun and I enjoyed them immensely, but I don't deny that when put alongside the other aspects of the game, electrocuting people and making their heads pop is a bit juvenile.

I don't think it can excuse it with the "Oh, it's supposed to be extreme violence because it's a violent story" line either. If that were the case, the violence should be understated and gruesome, not colorful and fun.

The fact is, no matter how ambitious or imaginative a game is, the audience still demands that it provide exploding heads. Y'know, because it's a game. And games are fun. And nothing else. And there is only one kind of fun. And that is the kind with exploding heads that gives me a hard on and makes me feel powerful.

*sigh*

One day. Maybe.

 

[Zeraki]

Huh, the only parts that I really found particularly bad so far are the skyhook(is that what it's called?)executions. Those are really the only thing that make me cringe... and I generally avoid them when Elizabeth is with me because of how she reacts to it.

In comparison, I think Tomb Raider was far, far worse when it came to unnecessary violence honestly. Now that's a game that had me feeling bad for the bad guys because of how brutal Lara was.

 

[Ishal]

Besides the Skyhook stuff and the occasional swearing I don't see TOO much stuff that would even give it an M rating. In terms of just eh general combat, I've seen stuff far more violent.

Games are interactive, so you the player are going to be presented with creative and brutal ways to get the job done, and having that skyhook around is going to help in that regard.

I view this game as an Indiana Jones type scenario. Booker is more adept at Violence than Indy, sure... but his reason for going to Columbia isn't strictly violence. Just the same way Indy's reasons aren't that. In so many of Indiana Jones movies we see "gruesome" violence. In the first movie we see a nazi get chewed up by a plane propeller and the scene with the ark at the end. In the Last Crusade he's on a tank and shoots a bullet through 3 nazi soldiers killing them. Know what we call that in videogames? A triple kill. And those scenes in movies are there to amuse the audience, only difference is the audience is passive there. In Columbia its all YOU the player. You don't even need to perform executions with the skyhook.

Some of the violence is cartoonish like the shock jockey, yes. But eh... I can't be arsed to care. It didn't detract from my experience any since I barely used it.

In the grand scheme of things, If there is violence in games its going to be perceived as more violent because its interactive. Ultimately I don't believe it to be any worse than other media, the only difference being more enemies are put in front of you since its a challenge and, once again, interactive.

...

Also, I noticed when you do kill someone with a skyhook or shoot them point black with the China broom, a jarring sound can be heard. Its someone slamming on the keys of a piano. I think that was pretty brilliant. It was so jarring that knocked me out my passive attitude where I was just cruising along getting rid of enemies. Everytime you do that and here that "DING" sound its there to grab your attention for a reason. I'm sure other people will interpret it differently though.

 

[Single Shot]

It's a legitimate concern.

From an arty farty perspective:

Imagine you have never read a book before...you can read a good book (provided you can read)..without realising what's a rubbish trope or what's expected from the medium and not find it jarring or not have your immersion broken. I have never read something random and had someone defend it 'well it's a book..it has to have these random immersion breaking moments in it'

Now imagine you have never watched a movie, you can watch (a good movie); bladerunner, the departed, wizard of oz, or judge dredd, terminator etc etc etc. In each movie any violence, or dialogue, action sequences, set pieces come together to be quite consistent. You won't realise what's a silly trope or not...unless the movie is rubbish.

Then you play a game for the first time..you play bioshock. everything telling you the rules of the universe points to a bit of realism in this 'what if' universe. Add a bit of magic. Then all of a sudden you are mowing down hordes of enemies......why? 'because it's a video game'.

Enter justifications that it is ok, because Elizabeth gasps about it..it's still jarring to suddenly be a super soldier after everything leading up to that point

It's like watching an episode of 'friends' or another US sitcom...there's a sad scene ..but then someone makes a random joke and you hear everyone laugh. If you had never seen that before you will be confused. It's good for a pre-defined genre, it will win comedy awards..but from an art perspective it is broken.
Just like bioshock is a reallly really good FPS + story game. It will win awards...but as a piece of art it is broken.

The games that stand out like portal 1,2, ico, shadow of the colossus, zelda, dark souls, etc don't suffer from this randomness. All individual aspects add up to make the game as arty farty as possible.
Even Metal gear solid, Halo etc are consistent to their universe.

Do I make sense? lol. I don't know.

All the pre marketing about bioshock infinite taking massive risks is absolute rubbish. What is risky about putting a good story on a FPS template? It's the default thing to do

Okay, so when did MSG become consistent? I mean the games go from fart and diarrhoea jokes to deep conspiracies and emotional scenes in moments. MSG games, and Kojima in general, are known for that randomness and loved partly because of them. MSG games also have the great storyline and gameplay combination of Bioshock Infinite, both show an almost disturbing amount of possibly (hopefully) ironic sexism, both have more than average amounts of melee violence, and both are awesome games.


I would also like to point out that the mass slaughter of hundreds can't be treated as if it is the player acting since Bioshock has a names and verbally active protagonist with his own character. Just because we wouldn't want to slaughter those people like that doesn't mean Booker isn't too numb to the violence to care, ironically in the same situation as the more squeamish players, but isn't that just the same as watching a war film like 'the thin red line' where the main characters slaughter hundreds of people in often very bloody ways.
If you accept that then cartoony nature of the violence in Bioshock becomes the 'artsy' crap you seem to want in that it shows Bookers desensitised vision of the action even though we still see horrific gore in an otherwise superficially pretty world, similar to how pulp fiction used over the top gore to show how normal it was to the characters involved.

So to answer your question, no, you don't make sense.

 

[Boogie Knight]

Brutal violence has always been part of Bioshock, the elaborate animations for Skyhook kills are a tad sociopathic, but as the music trills(?) with each kill I get the vibe that our protagonist is more like the monster in the movies than Captain Awesome who can do no wrong. I also enjoyed the suspense of sections in the game where you can casually walk around among the civilians and past guards who don't know you by sight yet. Trying to not give yourself away made things more interesting that the simple massacres.

One thing I think worth pointing out is the differences in trophy lists. The previous games had trophies for research and irony on top of the usual combat and collectible related stuff. This time it's all killing enemies with a certain kind of weapon or method. Combat has always been part of the games, but in this case they put more emphasis on that. I found it odd that the game removed the map, like exploration isn't as important as it used to be.

I best remember some of the optional actions involving tears and music far better than any of the battles. Violence is par for the course, but I think that pandering to the CoD crowd shifted the gameplay focus to the part that is not Bioshock Infinite's strongest feature.

 

[Auron]

art should not be changed for people who want a pony version. It's the same idea that Tarantino has, it uses somewhat extreme violence to make a point and does it artfully and very well. Some people dislike it, and it's their choice but no one can say it's wrong. That Booker's an extremely violent man that stands out in a violent time is important part of the narrative by the way.

Furthermore, violence is just fun and it's a game indeed. What the hell do we fondly remember Doom and wolfenstein for anyway? Over the top violence perhaps?

Funnily enough it's not even close to the cartoony levels of violence in doom or even something more modern like Team Fortress.

I miss a time when gamers didn't mind gore and violence in games and it was actually harmless fun instead of all this whining.

This degree of violence is new to the BioShock universe

Did this guy really play the other 2?

 

[SSJBlastoise]

Then you play a game for the first time..you play bioshock. everything telling you the rules of the universe points to a bit of realism in this 'what if' universe. Add a bit of magic. Then all of a sudden you are mowing down hordes of enemies......why? 'because it's a video game'.

Enter justifications that it is ok, because Elizabeth gasps about it..it's still jarring to suddenly be a super soldier after everything leading up to that point

All the pre marketing about bioshock infinite taking massive risks is absolute rubbish. What is risky about putting a good story on a FPS template? It's the default thing to do

I'm not quite sure if you played the game or else the first two points I have quoted would kind of make sense. Considering Elizabeth is Comstock's prized possession it make sense for him to send everything he has to get her back, hence the killing hundreds of people. Plus the fact Comstock has pretty much brainwashed the citizens of Columbia into believing the False Shepard is someone that must be killed before they can spread their lies.

The second point was made reference to during the battle with Slate and how he did so much at the battle of Wounded Knee so he didn't just all of a sudden become an expert at killing, he had past experiences.

Spoiler: Addressing marketing but potential spoilers of the ending.

The reason it was a risk is because most stories in games are fairly straight forward and wrap up everything for you compared to not being sure what happens to the Bookers that didn't choose to get baptised. After the credits it shows a scene that can be interpreted differently from one person to another. It wasn't a straight forward ending and this site alone has shown how much discussion it has created, I don't see many other games getting this level of discussion.

 

[scorptatious]

I was actually surprised at how violent this game was. In a good way though. Between the whole sky hook thing and the various death animations caused by various weapons and vigors, there is a lot of detail in this game's violence. Hell, they even change the character models depending on what you use on them, for example, when you use crows on them, their bodies actually look like they were pecked all over.

I'm not sure if this is the same kind of detail used in the previous Bioshock games, as I haven't played them in a long time, but I just felt it was really cool how they did it in Infinite.