Bioshock Infinite: I want my Save Function back.

[TehCookie]

Saving anytime is a nice luxury. I don't know crap about programming but it seems much harder to do than save points. What does drink me bonkers is no manual save, like Assassins Creed. What is the purpose of that? Stopping players from having fun because they're not playing the way the developers envisioned it?

 

[MHR]

Savescumming in a survival arena setting completely defeats the purpose of it. Complain all you want but it'll still be true.

Don't even tell me creating and managing your savescum is okay because it in itself requires effort. If you could put forth the same effort to knowing how to play the game you wouldn't need to savescum.

 

[votemarvel]

I like the ability to save any where because I like to replay certain scenes in games. Many times I've fired up Mass Effect 2 just to replay Tali's loyalty mission (my favourite part of the trilogy.)

 

[clippen05]

I can't understand how anyone could ask for a save feature in a "horde-mode" type game. (That's what the Bioshock: Infinite's DLC is right?) The whole point of the mode is to see how long you can survive. Don't checkpoints make that whole objective rather pointless? This is why I always preferred Nazi Zombies over Gears of War horde mode; starting from a wave other than round 1 feels like cheating to me...

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Some people will tell you that saving anywhere in the game will cause people to "save scum" and constantly save all the time, making any kind of difficulty a joke because you'd just be able to reload the game from anywhere. Those people will also tell you that being able to save anywhere would undermine the intent that the developers had when they created the gameplay.

I think the people who will tell you that are douchebags.

Well maybe I'm a douchebag, but yooooou're a dirty casual!

Okay, okay, I admit that in a regular single player story mode you should ideally be able to save whenever you want. But isn't a wave/horde mode entirely about the challenge of it, and how far you can get? Seems to me that being able to save along the way with that defeats the point of it. Maybe the Bioshock Infinite version is different in some way, but I assume that either the waves are infinite (it would be fitting, after all) or beating every one is supposed to be a major achievement, and just letting you pick up where you left off defeats the point of that in my opinion.

It's still all a single player affair though. If some people want to cheat their way through and beat the last wave it doesn't affect anyone but themselves, so who cares? Maybe they don't care about the challenge aspect at all, maybe they just want to see what the end is like, or maybe they just like playing a specific wave over and over again. Are you seriously telling me that you would deny these people the pleasure of playing the single player game the way they want to play it just because it's not the way YOU would do it?

 

[Lord_Gremlin]

Some people will tell you that saving anywhere in the game will cause people to "save scum" and constantly save all the time, making any kind of difficulty a joke because you'd just be able to reload the game from anywhere. Those people will also tell you that being able to save anywhere would undermine the intent that the developers had when they created the gameplay.

I think the people who will tell you that are douchebags.

I agree that you should have the ability to save anywhere you want anytime you want.

You, sir, deserve a cookie.
Sometimes, as I grow older and older, I try a game and realize that I just feel insulted/disrespected by developer. That said Bioshock Infinite itself was reasonable enough, after all it saved after each encounter.

 

[AITH]

Nope. I spoke too soon.

The game just froze on wave 6.

There is no excuse for me not being able to save after wave 5.

Yeah, it should at least save every 5 waves. That way you're not just diving back where you left off but you aren't starting from scratch either. Starting from scratch repeatedly typically makes me lose interest after a while (ie Nazi zombies).

 

[Lyri]

the kids these days and their stupid ass terms for normal game features. go back to your playboxes and x stations !

anyone remember the days when developers you know added cheat codes to games themselves and no one batted an eyelid. now apparently manual saving horrifies people

Achievements killed cheat codes, there was something about that somewhere. Vague I know but yeah, I understand your point/

I'm pretty aware of what "save scumming" is but this is the first time I've heard of saving a lot put into such negative terms and people turning there noses up at practitioners.
How dare people save before a something happens in order to get right back into it or avoid difficulty, it isn't like there there are a few other ways around that anyway.

I just think it is an absurd thing to say.

 

[Terminate421]

My question is how long does it take you all to just do one wave? Trying to get blue ribbon I understand but...are you not that good at the game? Not being offensive, just asking skill level?

I'm often flowing between skyrails and the ground and decimating people with the carbine

It takes about 40 minutes to do 15 waves.

 

[Easton Dark]

Okay, okay, I admit that in a regular single player story mode you should ideally be able to save whenever you want. But isn't a wave/horde mode entirely about the challenge of it, and how far you can get? Seems to me that being able to save along the way with that defeats the point of it. Maybe the Bioshock Infinite version is different in some way, but I assume that either the waves are infinite (it would be fitting, after all) or beating every one is supposed to be a major achievement, and just letting you pick up where you left off defeats the point of that in my opinion.

What's the point though? The player has already proven that they can get through waves 1-whatever no problem. Why make them do it all again if it's been proven they can do it?

It's like those bullshit difficulty achievements for beating the game. If you do it on the hardest difficulty, all of them should unlock, because if you've done it on the hardest, of course you can beat the game on easy.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

I haven't played the wave mode you are speaking of but isn't the whole idea of wave battles to see how far you can get in one go? To see how good you are compared to other people on a fair basis(one life, one chance)?

As for checkpoints over free saves, checkpoints make games more challenging. Yes, it's annoying as fuck having to go pick up items everytime you die but that isn't the checkpoint systems fault, it's shitty coding by the developers. The checkpoint system forces you to get better at a game before you can finish it thats all...and the more you play a game before it's end, the more likely you are to buy the next installment. It works on every level as far as i can see but then again, i don't need free saves to finish games...i don't feel hampered by checkpoints...i don't feel challenged by games.

Care to take a challenge? Explain how, say, Fallout New Vegas would be improved by doing away with a free save system.

It wouldn't be improved...thats the thing with free roaming games as opposed to more linear titles. Linear titles allow developers to set the challenge perfectly...free roaming you can be any level with any weapon so the set pieces fall apart. I'll use this moment to mention that i generally play fallout 3 on the autosave and if i die before i make it to another save point i replay the area again. I save every few hours or when i'm going somewhere i know might get annoying. The steel ingot collection area was particularly annoying on the Pitt but playing it through 3 or 4 times gave me a great working knowledge of the level, far better than if i had just saved after finding each batch.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

the kids these days and their stupid ass terms for normal game features. go back to your playboxes and x stations !

anyone remember the days when developers you know added cheat codes to games themselves and no one batted an eyelid. now apparently manual saving horrifies people

Achievements killed cheat codes, there was something about that somewhere. Vague I know but yeah, I understand your point/

I'm pretty aware of what "save scumming" is but this is the first time I've heard of saving a lot put into such negative terms and people turning there noses up at practitioners.
How dare people save before a something happens in order to get right back into it or avoid difficulty, it isn't like there there are a few other ways around that anyway.

I just think it is an absurd thing to say.

I think the problem is that people think they are entitled to finish any game they play without putting any effort into it. That wasn't always the case and people who find games too easy now want to go back to the era when most games were difficult and they can still find a challenge. I don't think much of save scumming to be honest...barely even heard the term before.

I am a hardcore gamer but i don't do it to compete with low skill players...(save scummers are a part of that)...i'm competing with the best. I think some hardcore gamers assume that everybody should play like them but where is the fun in that? I can take the piss all day long under our current system and feel completely justified...because people are using methods to vaguely cheat at games that require no effort on my part. I will continue to mock (motivate) people until they no longer feel they are poor players and can survive without using dodgy tactics.

 

[krazykidd]

In the new Bioshock Infinite DLC, which I was rather getting into, I found that I could not save. It was disappointing, but not nearly as much as when I tried to restart wave 9 only to find out after I selected the option that going back to the last checkpoint meant restarting from wave 1.

So, here's my question: Is there a reason that perfectly simple and readily available technology, that would improve my experience in the game I bought, is being withheld from me? I'm seriously asking. Why would such basic technology, that was in the original Bioshock and improved it, not be in the sequel?

Because the developpers decided that today they are going to decide to piss you off personally .

Seriously , the developpers make their game , you play by their rules . If they decide they don't want to put saves , that's their design choice . They are in no way form or shape required to please you . They decided to make their game ( in this case , DLC ) like that , and you paid money for that . Weather or not you think it's a good design choice is irrelevant , THEY thought it was a good design choice , and that's all that matters ( as long that the game isn't broken ).

[small]OR you know , you could whine about it and make a petition for the ability to save .[/small]

 

[Lyri]

I think the problem is that people think they are entitled to finish any game they play without putting any effort into it.

You are.

That wasn't always the case

People didn't have difficulty selection or numerous save points as, those things are fairly recent.

People who find games too easy now want to go back to the era when most games were difficult and they can still find a challenge.

You can, if you want.

I don't think much of save scumming to be honest...barely even heard the term before.

I am a hardcore gamer but i don't do it to compete with low skill players...(save scummers are a part of that)...i'm competing with the best. I think some hardcore gamers assume that everybody should play like them but where is the fun in that? I can take the piss all day long under our current system and feel completely justified...because people are using methods to vaguely cheat at games that require no effort on my part. I will continue to mock (motivate) people until they no longer feel they are poor players and can survive without using dodgy tactics.

What does any of that have to do with people playing single player offline games where they save before a fight so they can reload?
You're not motivating them, you're just being a dick about it.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

I think the problem is that people think they are entitled to finish any game they play without putting any effort into it.

You are.

That wasn't always the case

People didn't have difficulty selection or numerous save points as, those things are fairly recent.

People who find games too easy now want to go back to the era when most games were difficult and they can still find a challenge.

You can, if you want.

I don't think much of save scumming to be honest...barely even heard the term before.

I am a hardcore gamer but i don't do it to compete with low skill players...(save scummers are a part of that)...i'm competing with the best. I think some hardcore gamers assume that everybody should play like them but where is the fun in that? I can take the piss all day long under our current system and feel completely justified...because people are using methods to vaguely cheat at games that require no effort on my part. I will continue to mock (motivate) people until they no longer feel they are poor players and can survive without using dodgy tactics.

What does any of that have to do with people playing single player offline games where they save before a fight so they can reload?
You're not motivating them, you're just being a dick about it.

...and if that pisses them off they can either get good enough to compete or fuck off trying to talk to me about something they have cheated to get past rather than beat.

It's all about difficulty and i see the differing save systems as adding or removing difficulty. As i've said before, checkpoints are generally harder to complete than free saves and i find almost every modern game a cakewalk, of course i'm going to back the system i think is the hardest.

One other thing, old style games had lives and that system forces perfection...not just good or acceptable.

 

[Eduku]

I think the problem is that people think they are entitled to finish any game they play without putting any effort into it.

Wait, I don't have the right to play any game I own the way I want? Crap, I better delete my steam library and all my other games, I'm clearly doing it wrong and don't deserve to play games.

I am a hardcore gamer but i don't do it to compete with low skill players...(save scummers are a part of that)...i'm competing with the best. I think some hardcore gamers assume that everybody should play like them but where is the fun in that? I can take the piss all day long under our current system and feel completely justified...because people are using methods to vaguely cheat at games that require no effort on my part. I will continue to mock (motivate) people until they no longer feel they are poor players and can survive without using dodgy tactics.

Well that's it then. Games aren't to be played for fun anymore, but instead as a measure of one's e-peen. I guess I'll have to start practising everyday so I can also become one of the revered 'hardcore gamers'. Then I can finally gain the right to mock others and look down upon them to make me feel better about myself, under the guise of 'motivating' them.

My eyes have truly been opened.

 

[PayNSprayBandit]

I haven't played the wave mode you are speaking of but isn't the whole idea of wave battles to see how far you can get in one go? To see how good you are compared to other people on a fair basis(one life, one chance)?

As for checkpoints over free saves, checkpoints make games more challenging. Yes, it's annoying as fuck having to go pick up items everytime you die but that isn't the checkpoint systems fault, it's shitty coding by the developers. The checkpoint system forces you to get better at a game before you can finish it thats all...and the more you play a game before it's end, the more likely you are to buy the next installment. It works on every level as far as i can see but then again, i don't need free saves to finish games...i don't feel hampered by checkpoints...i don't feel challenged by games.

One thing I like about manual saves, is that it allows me to circumvent poor coding by developers.

I don't think I asked my video games to force me to do anything and for my money, you lost the argument at, "Yes, it's annoying..."

Okay, okay, I admit that in a regular single player story mode you should ideally be able to save whenever you want. But isn't a wave/horde mode entirely about the challenge of it, and how far you can get? Seems to me that being able to save along the way with that defeats the point of it. Maybe the Bioshock Infinite version is different in some way, but I assume that either the waves are infinite (it would be fitting, after all) or beating every one is supposed to be a major achievement, and just letting you pick up where you left off defeats the point of that in my opinion.

Maybe I am missing something, but... you do realize the new DLC is an arena, right?

You play it to see how far you can get, like a survivor mode in fighting games, or a horde mode in gears of war. There is no point to a save function because there is no point to playing the later half of a match and, if you complete all the waves, you get nothing but a pat on the back. If you die, you get the money and try again... being able to "save scum" beats the propose of the mode.

Savescumming in a survival arena setting completely defeats the purpose of it. Complain all you want but it'll still be true.

Don't even tell me creating and managing your savescum is okay because it in itself requires effort. If you could put forth the same effort to knowing how to play the game you wouldn't need to savescum.

I can't understand how anyone could ask for a save feature in a "horde-mode" type game. (That's what the Bioshock: Infinite's DLC is right?) The whole point of the mode is to see how long you can survive. Don't checkpoints make that whole objective rather pointless? This is why I always preferred Nazi Zombies over Gears of War horde mode; starting from a wave other than round 1 feels like cheating to me...

My question is how long does it take you all to just do one wave? Trying to get blue ribbon I understand but...are you not that good at the game? Not being offensive, just asking skill level?

I'm often flowing between skyrails and the ground and decimating people with the carbine

It takes about 40 minutes to do 15 waves.

The first BSI DLC, the only one that's out, is Horde style. There are four maps with 15 waves each. But, instead of each map having a bunch of regular waves followed by a boss wave, every wave is carefully crafted with a wave/map specific challenge. They're called the Blue Ribbon Challenges. So the fifth wave of map A is unique from all other waves, but is the same every time you play Map A, Wave 5. I like some Blue Ribbon Challenges more than others. It's not just about seeing how long I can survive. It's also not about getting the ribbons. I got all the ribbons on the first map in two runs. I still enjoy the challenges.

If I'm in the mood to play a specific challenge repeatedly, the game doesn't really offer that option.

In the new Bioshock Infinite DLC, which I was rather getting into, I found that I could not save. It was disappointing, but not nearly as much as when I tried to restart wave 9 only to find out after I selected the option that going back to the last checkpoint meant restarting from wave 1.

So, here's my question: Is there a reason that perfectly simple and readily available technology, that would improve my experience in the game I bought, is being withheld from me? I'm seriously asking. Why would such basic technology, that was in the original Bioshock and improved it, not be in the sequel?

Because the developpers decided that today they are going to decide to piss you off personally .

Seriously , the developpers make their game , you play by their rules . If they decide they don't want to put saves , that's their design choice . They are in no way form or shape required to please you . They decided to make their game ( in this case , DLC ) like that , and you paid money for that . Weather or not you think it's a good design choice is irrelevant , THEY thought it was a good design choice , and that's all that matters ( as long that the game isn't broken ).

[small]OR you know , you could whine about it and make a petition for the ability to save .[/small]

I didn't start a petition about save functions. That would be silly. I didn't start a protest. I asked for an explanation about the disappearance of a function I liked, from a franchise I've been enjoying. I created this thread because I genuinely wanted to know why there is a feature that, it seems to me, would obviously improve a video game I bought, but that was left out of it.

I was just interested in an answer. But since you brought it up, whether or not I think it's a good design choice could not possibly be more relevant. I am the consumer. Without the consumer there is no game and the developers have no jobs. Publishers don't give me their games for free. I pay for my entertainment. Their whole job is to please me. No developer is required by law or morality to make a game that I will enjoy. However, if they're hoping for my business, they had better make what I want or they aren't going to get it.

I like to have as much control as possible over how and when I save in a video game, because it allows me to shape my experience to be what I will most enjoy. Since the pursuit of enjoyment is my motivation for playing video games, I have every reason to make the inclusion of a good save function a part of the criteria by which I purchase a game; and, effectively, demand that it be put into games.

This is capitalism. The consumer has the power. So long as I vote with my wallet and buy only the games that have the features I like, I encourage the creation of games I will enjoy. Before I decide to actively avoid games that have no proper save function, as I do games that have Quick Time Events, I wanted to hear if anyone had any thoughts on why I may have misjudged the situation. Basically, I was looking for a justification; a reason why I should be interested in buying a game despite its lack of this functionality.

So far I haven't heard anything convincing.

I think Shamus did an article about this, explaining why it's actually a lot harder to do any-time saving than you would believe.

Here it is

Difficulty isn't a completely unreasonable argument, but the game doesn't even have an auto-save when it teleports you back to the weapons room between waves in case of a mishap/emergency. On top of which, this mechanic is important enough to my experience that I don't think I'm being unreasonable by demanding it, particularly from a production as big as Bioshock Infinite.