Bioshock Infinite, The ?Real Meaning? Behind The Name & A Rant On Themes

[Kael Arawn]

Greetings & Salutations fellow escapists I?ve been a long viewer of this site but I?ve never really felt much of a need to join in on the ?conversation? via the forums as most of the time everything I have to offer thought wise has normally been stated.

In till bioshock infinite came along and I now feel I have something to add to the discussion, what follows is a random collection of thoughts I have on bioshock infinite and the bioshock franchise kind of as a whole as well as a bunch of wish fulfilment so I suppose I should prefix this rant with the note that *SPOILERS BE CONTAINED WITHIN* as while I won?t be doing a blow by blow recount of the ending I do touch on some themes that it brings up.

Now onto the rant!

Firstly I ?got? the ending, not only did I enjoy it the entire game narrative complete blew me away even though quiet a lot of the ?shock secrets? where rather guessable before they happened but what I found most amazing was the setup for a never end series of bioshock games as well as the fact that irrational DIDN?T go the direction I was expecting with the narrative as a whole.

Back when they first started building prehype for infinite one of the biggest sticking points for me was the fact that they were making a world/underlying ideology that dominated said world that was the opposite to that expressed in bioshock 1.

Whereas 1 focused on the ideal that governments only hold back big industry/business and politician?s where looked at as the scum of the earth by ryan and his ilk as well as the entire hatred of organized religions/gods thing that was going on, in infinite I saw a world that had absolute reverence for politician?s to the point where they saw them as gods and the individual man was subservient to the state, add to this the fact that Columbia is a city in the sky and we had the grounds for 2x super city?s born of opposite where life might be similar but the populace/rulers of one would see the other by definition as the enemy based on belief.

So when ryan talks about the life sucking leeches that are politician?s he was talking about the rulers of Columbia and when Comstock etc talk about the filth below they were talking about ryan and his ilk.

I thought irrational where gearing up for an all might war between the 2x civilization?s/ideology?s where both city's existed in the one world, and how wrong I was

During the ending of infinite when seeing Rapture Elizabeth states that rapture is one possibility, she also states during the ?ending stage? that there is always a light house and a man, so what I think the ?true? meaning behind infinite's ending is that the ?bioshock? story is one that can be told ?infinitely? across a multiple timelines all of which have some constants that make them ?bioshock?.

By doing this irrational has setup the ability to infinitely tell the same basic narrative a million times over if they want to without the ?reboot? being seen as retconing the original games.

This is pure utter brilliance on their part as the true narrative of bioshock is one of continuing themes, themes such as racial intolerance/the eternal war between the haves and have nots, the question of the cost of scientific advancement versus social conscientious, the concept of belief and the importance of god, etc.

I also presume that there will always be a lighthouse, a wired and wonderful world, tonics/vigors (or whatever they call them next time), a mysterious hero tied to the narrative through a secret and a ruler and an inventor/business man who dominate the world through supply of product/control of the work force.

So the story of bioshock itself is a constant that focuses on particular themes but the games/character?s themselves can always be fresh and disconnected from what came before AND THEY NEVER HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHY EVER AGAIN

This is pure undiluted genius in my opinion and I commend irrational for being such a smart bunch of cookies as to find a solution to one of the biggest issues facing modern gaming, the need to retcon your IP every few gens to keep it fresh for new players.

It?s also one of the best eternal scifi concepts ever since the original invention of doctor who.

Bioshock infinite is almost a perfect game in my opinion though I did find the fact that I could only carry 2x guns annoying and while I understand that it leads to a much more ?vigor focused? combat experience with all vigors available at all times once collected, with a much more streamlined and at the same time more dynamic combat experience I missed carrying custom plasmids as I enjoyed playing through bioshock 1 with a complete different set as they made the combat experience much more varied.

Also I was annoyed with the fact that I didn?t get to fight Song Bird as the handy men where kind of a letdown in comparison to big daddy?s and I loved fighting them in bioshock 1 because of the sense of trepidation I had before each bout, I felt the same ?fear? from Song Bird and it was meaningless in the end as I never needed to fight him (mean?s the sensation will be lost on replays which is sad).

I didn?t mind the other depth removing elements such as gun mod/hacking ect all being simply a pay to gain thing as it fitted with the world (personal capitalism vs personal endeavor) .

Im also kind of let down by the fact that it seems irrational are done with the entire rapture setting as while I know the story is played out if my theory is right I won?t ever see it again in a meaningful way as all future bioshocks will be based in their own dimension separate to infinite's and 1 / 2?s (and I wanted my Columbia rapture war damn it )

Now onto wish fulfillment:-

The ONLY story element I need fleshed out is WHO IS SONG BIRD (who not what, I understand that he is basically finks version of a super advanced big daddy as he stole the idea from ryan after seeing one through a tear), im hoping that that question is answered in dlc.

Im a big fan of the theory brought up in another escapist thread that he?s Booker from another timeline stuffed in a suit.

I also would have liked to see chens character fleshed out more (the gunsmith) as I found him interesting (chinaman with shop in infinite!) and we never really learn dick all about him, hopefully dlc will fix this as well. I presume all the awesomely wacky guns around the world where designed by him so he was kept around because of he?s too valuable to get rid of.

I would also like to see some dlc focused exclusively from the point of view of a vox member, maybe daisy?s second in command, the black buy who is on the air ship and replaces her as the voice of the vox after her death, if such a thing existed I would like it to focus on this guy?s life and how crappy it is been as a black in the world of infinite, I would call said dlc ?A Man Of Constant Sorrow?.

So that said why do people think of my theory, I posted this here so that I could get some real feedback from like-minded individual?s as most of my social scene are complete boneheads and wouldn?t understand it if I uploaded the concept directly to their minds

 

[Kael Arawn]

I could also surmise if my concept of the ?infinite possibility theory? is indeed being played out by irrational that the ?bioshock? itself is a "singular notion narrative" comprised of the same themes deployed as a whole and that ?bioshock? will always happen in each new world they create attached to this series.

It does mean that the ?actors are less important than the stage? but if the actors are as vibrant and full of character as Elizabeth/the Luteces I won?t mind.

Also where would people want to see the series go next (not dlc next game)? I wouldn?t mind a bioshock set in ancient Egypt myself, as I think the dynamic/themes are already present for the ?bioshock? to be implemented.

I would also like to see the Luteces become a constant in all bioshock games from now on as a ethereal link to infinite or as "re-birthed characters" exploring the same paradigm in a now world.

 

[Innegativeion]

I'm going to not bother with spoiler tags, since this is obviously a spoilery thread.

I like your idea of the luteces as recurring characters, so long as they don't figure too prominently; perhaps a few cameos. Fable tried to do a similar thing with Theresa and she really just... made the whole thing seem a bit plastic.

Anyway, I personally won't rule out Elizabeth (the one you first meet, not Anna) as a potential cameo character in future games, as the sudden disappearance of her necklace in the final scene of the game implies her dimension hopping ability may have saved her from being swallowed by causality.

 

[skywolfblue]

I don't know how well a "War" between Rapture and Columbia would work. They're separated by a lot of ocean (and 50ish years), to the point where they're practically separate worlds, even though they hate each other, they never really run into each other enough to cause problems. I think a war probably wouldn't allow for quite as close of a critical examination of each extreme.

It would be interesting to know who songbird really is/was. It could be Booker, but that strikes me a bit as using the same person for too many things.

One question of mine would be: In the future time, when I was listening to the audio recordings of Elizabeth being broken down, there was often a third voice (in addition to comstock and elizabeth). Who was that?

 

[DrunkenMonkey]

Damn that was long, but it some thought provoking stuff.

Well first off Comstock was not referring to Rapture when he was mentioning politicians "down below" because Columbia secedes from America due ideological differences. The "below" referenced is the "Sodom". The idea for Bioshock infinite does not exist within the confines of the the first Bioshock, simply because Levine and other developers have mentioned that when they were thinking of a sequel to Bioshock they had to brainstorm into what makes the shock games, the setting, world, weapons, characters, etc. So this infinite idea only exists after the current bioshock came out. You can tie the plot between both games all you want, but in the end half of the minor details are just coincidences.

Well the infinite universes, infinite games, all connected is a rather bold idea, but I find it a bit lazy. If irrational keeps pumping "shock" games, Ken Levine is a great writer don't get me wrong, but creating fresh and new settings is finite process. For one the gameplay refinements with each spiritual successor are being watered down into more and more shooting. Also I fear that Levine is playing into M. Shyamalan's corner, where he overuses twists as the main hook of his stories. He's had a lucky break so far with System Shock, Bioshock, and infinite, but once again it's a case of where he relies too much on existing prototypes, rather than coming up with fresh idea. This is all opinion, but I honestly think either Irrational should stop making shock games period so they can, or come out with something new. I highly doubt 2k will just allow the Bioshock franchise to just sleep for a decade or so.

On another note, I agree Songbird feels like a wasted opportunity, but that's life, sometimes stuff just can't fit into a plot if it have no overall bearing.

 

[Kael Arawn]

As I stated in my ridiculously long original post I thought "pre-release" that all the reference's in the pre-hype to "the Sodom below" was Comstock referring to rapture directly as I saw the fact that infinite was so obviously focusing on the "other end of the mental stick" when it came to ideology with such adamant determination that it HAD to be a direct attack to the ideals ryan was pumping in the first game.

But as I also pointed out in my first post that notion was quashed ridiculously quickly by the game itself that it FREAKED ME OUT that they DIDN'T take the obvious path of confrontation between the 2x cities.

I also totally agree that after what I learned playing infinite that even if they were in the same world that a war would be highly unlikely due to the massive difference it time frame between when 1 and infinite (can we call it 3 or would a bioshock 3 be based in rapture, and if they make a sequel to infinite based in Columbia would that be infinite 2 or bioshock 4?) but pre-release I had NO CLUE about the disparity in time frame.

My general notion of a war brewing in the background was that if both rapture and Columbia existed in the same universe (which they don't) that inevitably one of them would stake claim on the "over/under world" based on the fact that their respective ideology's would lead to a natural need to subjugate those lesser then them or prove the other side wrong through conquest (kind of like a cival war maybe?) , but my overall idea totally got annihilated by irrational when they played the "infinitely infinite card" at the end infinite (that's far too many infinite's).

I also lament the fact that I will probably never know anything fleshed out about song bird as my desire to know more was mentioned under my wishful thinking area but still doesn't make me want to know any less.

And spot on to the notion that 2k won't let a money maker like bioshock just "sit idle" which is why I think Levine and co came up with the entire "infinite" concept so that they can attempt to keep each new game fresh as there overlords force them to pump out a new one very few years.

I also agree that relying on a "template" could lead to it core theme's being mined hollow to the point where its detrimental to the series as a whole but there's nothing wrong with using "standard's" as it gives good writers the ability to "work within a paradigm" and some of my favorite games/films/books etc take standard themes and then use them to establish greater depth because of what we already take for granted or turn them on their head when the need is required, deus ex and "cyberisation" or games of thrones and "fantasy" are perfect examples.
Heck they already did it to me with infinite as it's clearly uses the same "themes & notions" as bioshock 1 & 2 in a completely different way than I was expecting and why couldn't they do that again?

I can think of a never ending (or dare I say infinite again) amount of settings they could apply the "bioshock" to and have it fit.

Ancient Egypt?, What about Medieval England?, or on based in France during the French revolution? Or set in the same timeline as infinite in Russia with both water & sky segment's? Could be an answer to what America was doing at the time.

The main point is that if I can see the ability to see what they have done with infinite has greater contextual meaning for the franchise as whole and im excited by the prospects of how the "bioshock" dynamic can be applied to so many existing moments in human history I'm pretty shore irrational should be to

Also system shock kinda did this as well, in 2 you played a completely differences character to 1 but there was a connecting link in shodan and the fact that it happened in the same world, so this type of "tenuous meta link" as a reason to make another game is something Levine is already used to.

Also sorry for the secondary rant but I couldn't help myself.........

 

[McMindflayer]

I personally had a couple of problems with the ending to this game, not the themes presented, but just niggling problems.

WHY did they kill Booker? She was killing herself or, more accurately, causing herself not to exist. Why would booker want to kill himself? I understand passion of the moment of killing Comstock? but I mean, there are plenty of versions of himself that rescue her. I would say it's better to let her live a full life in some universes than to erase her from the timeline. If he was killing himself to save her that is. It could have been entirely selfish of not wanting to be comstock.

Why does she has the power to open/create tears herself? Why can she manipulate them with her emotions? Never understood, never explained.

Are the lutece's the same person or twins? I remember seeing something about them officially being the same person, but then what was the point of the coin flipping scene? I assumed that was a way of showing that Chance doesn't figure into the inifinite universes. That the entire deciding factor in all the universes was choice.

Why didn't Booker have nosebleeds before they started moving through tears? Like when she asked him why he was here and he told her he was sent here from New York. I mean, the nosebleed symbolized the incongruity of two different memories.

And finally, when they found Chen lin's equipment, why did they open a tear to another universe instead of just getting some of the vox to help them move the equipment? I mean, that mission was doomed to failure from the start if they had no idea how to get them back. It made it seem pointless.


Those are my points of contention with the game. But really, other than those, which aren't really game destroying plot holes, niggling thoughts, This game was amazing and awesome. I loved the Themes and ideas presented and how they were in direct contrast of Bioshock 1.


Oh hey, can anyone else decipher the beginning of the game in Columbia? I'm talking about how you walk up to the preacher and he "almost" drowns you in the pool while baptizing you. Was that a memory? did that actually happen? Besides being really good foreshadowing of the events of the game, what did it mean?


edit: Also, Decoy?! WTF!? Is she summoning me from another dimension... to be shot at and die for no reason besides to save me in this universe?

Also, I love how the cage sets her free from the bird. The bird usually symbolizes freedom. Especially in America where we are all about freedom and a bird is our national animal. But in Infinite, the bird is the thing that deters freedom and the cage is the freedom she sought... How deep do I read into that?

 

[Kael Arawn]

By my understanding of the game the luteces where indeed the same person and give a whole different meaning to the concept of ?loving oneself?, so the brother is the example of what the sister would be if they were born in the parallel but separate dimension.

Think of it as the only perceivable difference between the 2 is in universe A a different sperm made it to the egg and thusly she was female as opposed to male but they would have had exactly the same upbringing, education background etc so there thought processes are almost identical but whereas the brother felt bad about his part in creating Elizabeth the sister never did and that?s ?personal choice?, one of the over laying themes of bioshock (how much choice do we really have and what impact does it really have on our existence and why do we make the choices we make).

Elizabeth kills all books that would eventually become Comstock thusly while destroying herself as ?Elizabeth? would have saved her as anna and thusly end the paradox that made her Elizabeth in the first place, she killed ?Comstock? so that booker and herself could have a ?real future? free of the schism that is the infinite?s narrative as a whole.

The reason Elizabeth can open tears is because she is ?physically? in 2x universes at once (little pinky) and because of which she is a ?quantum anomaly? and for some reason in the bioshcok universe that gives you the ability to manipulate time/space, I personally would have liked it to be because Comstock pumped her full of Adam from when she was a child but meh I just rolled with it.

The reason booker has nose bleeds is because the luteces have screwed with his timeline so much that he has LITERALLY been to Columbia before the time we first play through, there disconnected from the time stream so when they ?pick? our booker and make the deal with him they could have already done it a billon times before hand, basically when they enter a time stream/dimension and pick a ?fresh booker from the possibility?s? they set ?that bookers? path in position to confront Comstock and there?s a never ending myriad of possibility?s for why he?s bleeding in advance, but it easily matches the games narrative and is not out of place.

When they go to get chen lees equipment the area is still heavily controller by the finks men and it?s not till after they dimension shift at the equipment that the vox become powerful enough to have the man power to help them move it and that would be because they now have guns from chen.

The baptism can be perceived as ?the universe? knowing the truth as well as irrational for shadowing the type of man booker is ?this one seems extra dirty brothers and sisters I think he needs another dip? as he never ?washed away his sins? and became Comstock, but generally it?s not that important.

And yes decoys, I admit by the explanation given in the game Elizabeth can ?pull? possibility?s in from other time lines so the decoys where indeed ? possible? bookers from another timeline but we don?t know if what Elizabeth pulls in is a constant in time space or not, meaning that she could be pulling a booker in who has been there already or might be there in the future and when she ?sends? him back it could be before the moment she pulled him in (thusly nullifying the fact she pulled him in) or it could just be hes a reflection of a possibility that could be in which case the double would dissipate the second she stopped focusing on it as a possibility.

But I do agree the decoys are a bit sketchy, the fact that they don?t run around and fight with booker A makes me think there possibility?s and not real, damn it would have been cool to have multiple versions of myself running around in combat though

And McMindFlay awesome thought about the cage really deep stuff, I would rant about it but you seem to have covered the complexity of the concept a lot better than I could in a lot fewer words

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

WHY did they kill Booker? She was killing herself or, more accurately, causing herself not to exist. Why would booker want to kill himself? I understand passion of the moment of killing Comstock? but I mean, there are plenty of versions of himself that rescue her. I would say it's better to let her live a full life in some universes than to erase her from the timeline. If he was killing himself to save her that is. It could have been entirely selfish of not wanting to be comstock.

Well, at one point Elisabeth says that there are constants and variables in the multiverse. She also says that even though Booker killed one Comstock, there are still countless other Comstocks in other universes. Perhaps this implies that so long as Comstocks and Elisabeths exist across the multiverse, things will always end in tragedy. For example, bringing fire down on the Sodom below. And with Elisabeths powers, whatever tragedy occurs can spread to other universes. And so on. The only way to prevent this is to smother Comstock in the crib at the point where the choice is made that leads Booker to become Comstock. The way I see it, it's Comstock that mustn't exist, not Elisabeth, but unfortunately, the only way to do that also prevents Elisabeths existence.

Why does she has the power to open/create tears herself? Why can she manipulate them with her emotions? Never understood, never explained.

Spoiler: Because she exists in two worlds at once

One of the Voxophones in the game has Rosalynd Lutece wondering why Elisabeth has her powers and the theorizes something along these lines. During the ending, at the part where Bookers tries to stop Comstock and the Luteces from moving Anna/Elisabeth to the other universe, the portal closes before Anna/Elisabeth is fully through, snipping off part of her pinky. So now one version of Elisabeth exists in two universes and apparently the multiverse hates that, so powers. It's not a good explanation, but its the closest the game gets to one.

Are the lutece's the same person or twins? I remember seeing something about them officially being the same person, but then what was the point of the coin flipping scene? I assumed that was a way of showing that Chance doesn't figure into the inifinite universes. That the entire deciding factor in all the universes was choice.

They are the same person. Robert is the Lutece from Bookers universe, while Rosalynd is the Lutece from Comstocks universe. They probably call each other brother and sister because they're excentric geniuses. What the coin toss is all about I don't know either. Maybe it's them being all 5-dimensional and testing probabilites or something.

 

[Joshimodo]

WHY did they kill Booker? She was killing herself or, more accurately, causing herself not to exist. Why would booker want to kill himself? I understand passion of the moment of killing Comstock? but I mean, there are plenty of versions of himself that rescue her. I would say it's better to let her live a full life in some universes than to erase her from the timeline. If he was killing himself to save her that is. It could have been entirely selfish of not wanting to be comstock.

She was closing "loops", as evidenced by her other iterations vanishing. The one we met however, remained. Whether that implies she is like the Luteces and is "outside" the constraints of the universe is unknown. It can also be suggested that killing THIS Booker allows the memories of this Booker to affect another Booker's mind, as shown in the end credits by that Booker's apparent surprise to hearing the baby.

Why does she has the power to open/create tears herself? Why can she manipulate them with her emotions? Never understood, never explained.

I recall it being mentioned in the Voxophones. In short: The Luteces.

Are the lutece's the same person or twins? I remember seeing something about them officially being the same person, but then what was the point of the coin flipping scene? I assumed that was a way of showing that Chance doesn't figure into the inifinite universes. That the entire deciding factor in all the universes was choice.?

...Really? That is explained in so much of the Voxophones and backstory. They are the same person, but from different realities where in one universe Lutece was a male, one where Lutece was female. They figured out a way of communicating via Morse Code, then a way to move across. This also affected the male Lutece quite badly.

Why didn't Booker have nosebleeds before they started moving through tears? Like when she asked him why he was here and he told her he was sent here from New York. I mean, the nosebleed symbolized the incongruity of two different memories.

He does, after you actually move through the first tear.

If you're talking about why he doesn't have them right at the start, he probably does. It's explained at the end that his mind made a new memory by fusing the two and not wanting to recall his actual memories. As explained, the more that die, the less unique/definable the remaining ones become.

And finally, when they found Chen lin's equipment, why did they open a tear to another universe instead of just getting some of the vox to help them move the equipment? I mean, that mission was doomed to failure from the start if they had no idea how to get them back. It made it seem pointless.

It was quicker to open a tear where the Chen Lin apparently already had the weaponsmithing equipment than moving it, so they hopped. Otherwise yes, they would've had to move it themselves or get the Vox to do so.

Oh hey, can anyone else decipher the beginning of the game in Columbia? I'm talking about how you walk up to the preacher and he "almost" drowns you in the pool while baptizing you. Was that a memory? did that actually happen? Besides being really good foreshadowing of the events of the game, what did it mean?

No, it wasn't a memory. It was likely just symbolic, that since Booker had just begun a "new life" with his false memories, and also makes for a stronger link with the baptism theme in general. Also could have theme links to Songbird.

edit: Also, Decoy?! WTF!? Is she summoning me from another dimension... to be shot at and die for no reason besides to save me in this universe?

Likely a machine, not actually Booker.

 

[Kael Arawn]

They are the same person. Robert is the Lutece from Bookers universe, while Rosalynd is the Lutece from Comstocks universe. They probably call each other brother and sister because they're excentric geniuses. What the coin toss is all about I don't know either. Maybe it's them being all 5-dimensional and testing probabilites or something.

I think the coin toss and chalk marks are the amount of times they have attempted to fix the mistake they made when they helped comstock get anna orginally, so each chalk mark indicates a separate time they have altered a different Bookers timeline and set him on the coarse of confronting comstock/his alternative self.

 

[Bug MuIdoon]

I enjoyed the game and the ending was OK as long as you don't try to think about or bring it out of the game's world, as then it just starts to fall to pieces, trips over itself and looks silly. There's a few other things I didn't like about the game too, including not enough story about Handymen or the Boys of silence and Songbird! Songbird was quite a disappointment in all honesty, all the pre-hype suggested he was going to be this big 'abusive husband' type threat, yet in reality you saw him all of 3/4 times for a few seconds. The really needed to explain him more and should have brought him in to the game way more, making the player actually afraid of him. The bit where he died was also made a little rushed by this. Because I hadn't really seen him throughout the game combined with the last little bit where he's on your(Anna's) side, I had about as much feeling towards him as I did when a Motorised Patriot or Mosquito that was helping me died. A lot of the main parts of the game felt rushed.

As I said, it was fun and worth playing but the rushed story parts combined with an ending you can't really take seriously kinda let my high expectations of the game down.

By doing this irrational has setup the ability to infinitely tell the same basic narrative a million times over if they want to without the ?reboot? being seen as retconing the original games.

This is pure utter brilliance on their part as the true narrative of bioshock is one of continuing themes, themes such as racial intolerance/the eternal war between the haves and have nots, the question of the cost of scientific advancement versus social conscientious, the concept of belief and the importance of god, etc.

I also have to disagree with this a little. I think it eventually just makes things turn in to bad, sloppy writing. "Oh we don't need to explain this, it's just Bioshock. Let's just stick anything in!" It basically just becomes 'The Force' from Star Wars..

 

[RJ 17]

Interesting read, and since no one else is using spoilers then I guess I won't either.

Personally I think pretty much the opposite...I think that now that the cat's out of the bag, there's really no point in playing another Bioshock, is there? We already know the story, all the themes, and the true secrets behind the series. In another topic I bring up a fact that you touched on: BS:I is basically BS2 with a fresh coat of paint. As you say, the actors are different, the location is different, but the core elements of the story are all exactly the same.

Personally I don't think I'd want to play another Bioshock after this one. For one it'll be very difficult for them to top BS:I, but beyond that it'd be pointless. New city, a new girl to save, still everything born from the mind of a madman. Indeed there are infinite possibilities for different cities, but as Elizabeth makes it clear, the story will always be the same. This means it'll essentially become Mario with guns and vigors rather than stars and fire-flowers.

As for your notion of a Bioshock in ancient Egypt...well, we're all free to dream our dreams, but one theme of Bioshock is a steampunk setting. That allows for high tech stuff using low tech equipment...but I don't think you oculd do steam punk in ancient Egypt seeing as how all they had to work with was rocks and wood.

 

[Kael Arawn]

Its bioshock they can implement the theme almost anywhere with decent writing, a steam punk egypt would be awesome!, star gate has done sci-fi Egyptian themes and proven they can work and i cant help but envision giant Anubis statue big daddy's and Pharaohs who can shoot fire out there hands/literally control the sun because of freaky genetic powers

But it was simply me "playing" with the idea that BS:I has pretty much set up the ability for irrational to keep pumping them out Ad-nausea and if they?re not going to stick with the ?Americana? atmosphere then they will obviously start tunneling other cultures that match the ?core? aspects of their narrative as they progress and Ancient Egypt offers those in spade?s (slaves, culture obsessed with advancement and worship etc).

And I clearly was dreaming as I said it was WISH FULFILLMENT

I also agree that crappy writing will totally destroy the series IF they have crappy writing but now they have established that the games will basically be the same narrative retold they can ?tip it on its head? when they want to and play with the conventions even more, which in itself could lead to interesting writing (?so its bioshock 5 let?s see how they play out the themes this time, WTF completely new themes OMG!!!)

And it will never be the ?force? as the ?force? isn?t a theme in star wars it?s a tool used by the jedi, a mystical and all engrossing one at that but still a tool, (and the JEDI and there order/place in the universe is a theme) like plasmids and we already have those.

And even if they keep pumping out the same basic narrative it will be infinitely more entertaining than the usual slock the industry produces and I buy each new COD as it comes out each year simply to play it and forget about it so why can?t I start doing that with bioshock (even though I would prefer it every 3 to 4 years with bioshock). So they are guaranteed a portion of my disposable income every time they bring a new one out even if it consecutively get worse with each installment (which the bioshock series hasn?t so far and where 3 games in).

Generally you can?t really fault the notion that the infinite in the games name is really about the fact that they can keep ?infinitely? pumping them out because of the set-up of BS:I and that?s what I?ve generally been trying to drive home in ALL my ranting?s

 

[AgentNein]

I enjoyed the game and the ending was OK as long as you don't try to think about or bring it out of the game's world, as then it just starts to fall to pieces, trips over itself and looks silly.

I agree with some of what you said, I really do wish songbird and the boys of silence got a bit more explanation. Well, songbird anyway. The boys of silence I chalk up to a world where Elizabeth has completely torn reality a new one and they're just weird Elizabeth nightmare fuel.

As for the ending though, how do you mean "as long as you don't try to bring it out of the game's world"? I mean, is that really fair? Infinite created its own internal logic that it's world works on, as is the right of a piece of fiction. For my money it sticks to it's own set up logic admirably. And really, how much SF, be it cinematic or literary can hold to the scrutiny of real world logic? They gave us a conceit early on of how their world works (throughout the multiverse, variables and constants) and it's our job to accept it on good faith. Just like the Force and every alien in Star Trek looking suspiciously like regular people with junk on their heads...

 

[Innegativeion]

They are the same person. Robert is the Lutece from Bookers universe, while Rosalynd is the Lutece from Comstocks universe. They probably call each other brother and sister because they're excentric geniuses. What the coin toss is all about I don't know either. Maybe it's them being all 5-dimensional and testing probabilites or something.

I think the coin toss and chalk marks are the amount of times they have attempted to fix the mistake they made when they helped comstock get anna orginally, so each chalk mark indicates a separate time they have altered a different Bookers timeline and set him on the coarse of confronting comstock/his alternative self.

I believe it is more for the player, to illustrate that pure chance doesn't change from universe to universe. Similar thing happens with the lottery.

As evidenced by a few voxophones and their banter, Rosalind Lutece is more fatalistic than Robert is. I think the coin toss is Robert trying in vain to prove to Rosalind that the tragedy of Columbia can be averted. I'd be willing to bet it was Robert that sends Booker the telegram. In fact Robert is the mover and shaker of most of the Lutece's plan. On the initial boat ride Rosa explains how she's against "the whole thought experiment", and a voxaphone confirms that the memory-scrambling that the Lutece plot hinges upon was theorized by Robert.

Finally, a fun fact; the number of tallies on Robert's chalk board (122) is the same as the code to activate the Columbia vessel on the lighthouse.

 

[Weatherking]

Well the infinite universes, infinite games, all connected is a rather bold idea, but I find it a bit lazy. If irrational keeps pumping "shock" games, Ken Levine is a great writer don't get me wrong, but creating fresh and new settings is finite process. For one the gameplay refinements with each spiritual successor are being watered down into more and more shooting. Also I fear that Levine is playing into M. Shyamalan's corner, where he overuses twists as the main hook of his stories. He's had a lucky break so far with System Shock, Bioshock, and infinite, but once again it's a case of where he relies too much on existing prototypes, rather than coming up with fresh idea. This is all opinion, but I honestly think either Irrational should stop making shock games period so they can, or come out with something new. I highly doubt 2k will just allow the Bioshock franchise to just sleep for a decade or so.

Have you ever studied narrative methods? Maybe this is a gross oversimplification, but basically if you can recognize the patterns in narrative structure and themes, just about everything is a permutation of several different methods of storytelling. I don't know if I really want to go so far as to say that BS:I is a meta commentary on narrative innovation in that there's a base structure that you can add endless different details making an infinite number of different experiences from a set of definite methods. I can see someone who is willing to read maybe a bit much into stuff making that argument... Not me though, I wouldn't do that, no way.
Anyway I might be stretching it, but that's what so interesting to me about this game, it's very open to interpretation.

 

[Sight Unseen]

I personally had a couple of problems with the ending to this game, not the themes presented, but just niggling problems.

WHY did they kill Booker? She was killing herself or, more accurately, causing herself not to exist. Why would booker want to kill himself? I understand passion of the moment of killing Comstock? but I mean, there are plenty of versions of himself that rescue her. I would say it's better to let her live a full life in some universes than to erase her from the timeline. If he was killing himself to save her that is. It could have been entirely selfish of not wanting to be comstock.

Let's go through your post point by point.

She kills Booker in all of the timelines where he accepts the baptism, meaning that Comstock is never "born". This would, in a way, kill Elizabeth, however she would still exist as Anna in all of the universes where Booker did not accept the baptism. This way, Comstock never existed, and Booker never sells his daughter to repay his debts.

Why does she has the power to open/create tears herself? Why can she manipulate them with her emotions? Never understood, never explained.

Since her pinky got cut off by the portal when they brought her through, Elizabeth/Anna exists simultaneously in two universes, which causes instability in the multiverse, and gives her the ability to see and open tears between universes, since she is also technically split between universes. This requires a bit of pseudo science and suspension of disbelief, but within the universe and rules they created, it is consistent.

Are the lutece's the same person or twins? I remember seeing something about them officially being the same person, but then what was the point of the coin flipping scene? I assumed that was a way of showing that Chance doesn't figure into the inifinite universes. That the entire deciding factor in all the universes was choice.

The Lutece's are the same person from different universes. The male Lutece is the Lutece from Booker's universe,and the female is the Lutece from Comstock's universe. There is a scene near the end of the game that confirms this, when they pull Booker from his room to the rainy dock, and he passes out. When Booker starts babbling about the girl and the debt, the male Lutece says something along the lines of "the mind will try to create memories where none exist. Trust me, I've lived it." This implies that he has also experienced the shock of changing universes.

The significance of the coin toss was twofold. First of all, it was a running tally of all the universes where the Lutece's already tried to overthrow Comstock and failed (122 Bookers failed before you.) Secondly, it was a demonstration of the concept of "constants and variables." Within the multiverse, the outcome of that coin toss was a constant. No matter how many universes you tried it in, it will always, always give heads. It is a universal constant. Booker's prediction of the coin toss, however, is a variable. In some people's games he will call heads, in others he will call tails ( the player doesn't choose, the game arbitrarily gives an answer)

Also chance plays a huge role in the universe. The Luteces tell Comstock that when he looked into tears and tried to foresee the future (hence his "prophetic" powers) He wasn't actually seeing the future, he was seeing different universes where a certain thing happened, and they were merely possibilities, dictated by chance and probability, and not certainties. Comstock took them as absolute truth. He saw that Booker branded his hand with AD, and used it to warn the public of the coming of the False Shepherd. This was a universal constant in all of the universes where he gave up Anna. Comstock also saw Elizabeth burning New York, and used it to form the prophecy "the seed of the prophet shall sit the throne, and drown in flame the mountains of man" This one was not a constant though, just one potential outcome.

Why didn't Booker have nosebleeds before they started moving through tears? Like when she asked him why he was here and he told her he was sent here from New York. I mean, the nosebleed symbolized the incongruity of two different memories.

He did actually get a nosebleed at least one time before even meeting Elizabeth. It happened at the part where all of Comstock's soldiers stand down, and Comstock talks to you over the black and white screen. You can see this video at 1:35 for reference if you like

Also it wasn't an incongruity to him at that point. The mind will try desperately to fill in memories where none exist. He had no real memory of why he was in this universe, so he filled it in with the whole story to "bring us the girl, and wipe away the debt" and the Lutece's re-enforced this memory for him.

And finally, when they found Chen lin's equipment, why did they open a tear to another universe instead of just getting some of the vox to help them move the equipment? I mean, that mission was doomed to failure from the start if they had no idea how to get them back. It made it seem pointless.


Those are my points of contention with the game. But really, other than those, which aren't really game destroying plot holes, niggling thoughts, This game was amazing and awesome. I loved the Themes and ideas presented and how they were in direct contrast of Bioshock 1.

I'm not sure about this point, but maybe she was trying to open the tear back to the original universe, but I'm really not sure.

Oh hey, can anyone else decipher the beginning of the game in Columbia? I'm talking about how you walk up to the preacher and he "almost" drowns you in the pool while baptizing you. Was that a memory? did that actually happen? Besides being really good foreshadowing of the events of the game, what did it mean?

I think this is both foreshadowing as well as Booker still being a little disoriented from having changed universes. He fills in things he doesnt understand with fake memories. I don't think it's a co-incidence that it was the same preacher as Wounded Knee, and I'm not convinced he was "really" there. I'm more inclined to believe that it was a false memory/experience.

I hope this helped.

 

[DrunkenMonkey]

Well the infinite universes, infinite games, all connected is a rather bold idea, but I find it a bit lazy. If irrational keeps pumping "shock" games, Ken Levine is a great writer don't get me wrong, but creating fresh and new settings is finite process. For one the gameplay refinements with each spiritual successor are being watered down into more and more shooting. Also I fear that Levine is playing into M. Shyamalan's corner, where he overuses twists as the main hook of his stories. He's had a lucky break so far with System Shock, Bioshock, and infinite, but once again it's a case of where he relies too much on existing prototypes, rather than coming up with fresh idea. This is all opinion, but I honestly think either Irrational should stop making shock games period so they can, or come out with something new. I highly doubt 2k will just allow the Bioshock franchise to just sleep for a decade or so.

Have you ever studied narrative methods? Maybe this is a gross oversimplification, but basically if you can recognize the patterns in narrative structure and themes, just about everything is a permutation of several different methods of storytelling. I don't know if I really want to go so far as to say that BS:I is a meta commentary on narrative innovation in that there's a base structure that you can add endless different details making an infinite number of different experiences from a set of definite methods. I can see someone who is willing to read maybe a bit much into stuff making that argument... Not me though, I wouldn't do that, no way.
Anyway I might be stretching it, but that's what so interesting to me about this game, it's very open to interpretation.

I'm not talking about the general narrative types, I'm talking about what the specific narrative type that levine might fall into. Like every bioshock game becoming " a man, a lighthouse, a city". It's going to become like rehashes.

 

[Sight Unseen]

Well the infinite universes, infinite games, all connected is a rather bold idea, but I find it a bit lazy. If irrational keeps pumping "shock" games, Ken Levine is a great writer don't get me wrong, but creating fresh and new settings is finite process. For one the gameplay refinements with each spiritual successor are being watered down into more and more shooting. Also I fear that Levine is playing into M. Shyamalan's corner, where he overuses twists as the main hook of his stories. He's had a lucky break so far with System Shock, Bioshock, and infinite, but once again it's a case of where he relies too much on existing prototypes, rather than coming up with fresh idea. This is all opinion, but I honestly think either Irrational should stop making shock games period so they can, or come out with something new. I highly doubt 2k will just allow the Bioshock franchise to just sleep for a decade or so.

Have you ever studied narrative methods? Maybe this is a gross oversimplification, but basically if you can recognize the patterns in narrative structure and themes, just about everything is a permutation of several different methods of storytelling. I don't know if I really want to go so far as to say that BS:I is a meta commentary on narrative innovation in that there's a base structure that you can add endless different details making an infinite number of different experiences from a set of definite methods. I can see someone who is willing to read maybe a bit much into stuff making that argument... Not me though, I wouldn't do that, no way.
Anyway I might be stretching it, but that's what so interesting to me about this game, it's very open to interpretation.

I'm not talking about the general narrative types, I'm talking about what the specific narrative type that levine might fall into. Like every bioshock game becoming " a man, a lighthouse, a city". It's going to become like rehashes.

Everything is pretty much a rehash of something else in some way or another...

There are no truly unique stories anymore, some variant will have been done, it's practically guaranteed.