Bioware and Obsidian

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Soviet Heavy

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As much contention there is in opinions on either company, I feel there are things that both could learn from the other.

PART 1: BIOWARE LEARNING FROM OBSIDIAN
Bioware really needs to look at Obsidian on a number of things, but I'll just list two. Both of them are based on dialogue. Obsidian is far better at making choices that straddle the lines of morality than Bioware is, and oftentimes, they even allow for more options.

For example: In KOTOR 1 (Bioware), you are given the option of either killing two thugs performing a shakedown, or letting them do it, and then fighting the thugs anyways because you are a witness.

In KOTOR 2 (Obsidian), when you see two thugs performing a shakedown, you can either threaten them to leave, mind control them to leave, pay them off, fight them, or Mind Control them to commit suicide by jumping off of a building.

The other thing Bioware could learn from Obsidian is timing. Alpha Protocol made the best addition to the voice protagonist with the addition of timing your answers. This not only put pressure on the player to make a choice in a short amount of time, but it also kept the conversations flowing without any of the awkward pauses when you would choose your response.

PART 2: OBSIDIAN LEARNING FROM BIOWARE
First and foremost, Obsidian needs a better bug testing crew. I realize that this is difficult for them, because they are freelance workers who are hired out by larger companies. This puts a strain on how much time they have to work on a game, and just how much of the game they are allowed to work on before the parent company tells them to launch.

When Bioware is given enough time to work on a project, they do try to fix as much as they can before the release. Just look at the level of polish from KOTOR 1 to KOTOR 2, and you will see what I mean.

Obsidian could also learn a bit about making their stories clearer. Now, I'm not saying simplify the stories, but make them easier to understand. KOTOR 2 has a magnificent story, but the state it was released in made plot points often obscured, or downright confusing. Bioware's approach usually is to have a clear cut end goal that your character is working towards. If Obsidian was to add some clarity to their games, it might help with comprehension for newer players.


IN CONCLUSION
So those are just some of the ways these companies could learn from each other. If you have anything else to add, feel free to do so in the comments.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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eh, i agree on some of it, but personally i like both companies for what they are, i like bioware's straight clean cut options, i don't ALWAYS need to have a zillion morally ambiguous options to choose from, nor do i want to always be on a god damn timer (regardless of how much i loved alpha protocol, it would drive me nuts if more rpg's started doing that.)

and same goes for obsidian, but flip flopped obviously on some of the answers.

i buy from both companies with great excitement because i know what i'm getting from them everytime.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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Anthraxus said:
Bio devs even stated themselves that most ppl don't replay games, so they don't want to create any extra content that never gets seen/played.
jeesh..they really aren't paying attention to me then, i've replayed kotor/jade empire/mass effect 1 + 2/neverwinter nights for a combined total over 100 maybe up to 150 times...
 

ms_sunlight

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gmaverick019 said:
Anthraxus said:
Bio devs even stated themselves that most ppl don't replay games, so they don't want to create any extra content that never gets seen/played.
jeesh..they really aren't paying attention to me then, i've replayed kotor/jade empire/mass effect 1 + 2/neverwinter nights for a combined total over 100 maybe up to 150 times...
Given that you log into their servers when you play their more recent games in order to access DLC, get achievements etc, you should be aware that their game is telling their servers all about your playstyle. They have excellent data about how many people replay their games.

Yes, there are people like you (and me, actually) who replay, replay, replay, but there are bound to be people who play once then move on to the next thing too. They're in the better position to say what percentage of players are like us, and what percentage are like them.
 

Yureina

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May 6, 2010
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Obsidian just needs to take care of its reputation for creating bug-ridden games. If they can solve that problem, I suspect that people will start to forget about Bioware. Obsidian's story and writing abilities outshine Bioware so well that they have the potential to be the greatest of RPG devs out there. :)
 

Soviet Heavy

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Arren Kae.
Now that is something that I fucking loved Chris Avellone for. All the proof is in the game. And yet, when someone asked him about it, this was his response.

"Can't comment on it, but good catch."

Sadly one of the things that will never be expanded on ever again in the Star Wars universe. But perhaps it is better that way.
 

Vivi22

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Anthraxus said:
Bio devs even stated themselves that most ppl don't replay games, so they don't want to create any extra content that never gets seen/played.
The real irony of that statement is not only that I think adding that extra and making meaningful choices possible would make more people replay the games, but I know I'd probably be a lot more interested in what they put out and not simply end up disappointed every time I play one of their games because they feel so empty and meaningless to me.

If nothing I do really matters, then why the hell should I care?
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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Soviet Heavy said:
The other thing Bioware could learn from Obsidian is timing. Alpha Protocol made the best addition to the voice protagonist with the addition of timing your answers. This not only put pressure on the player to make a choice in a short amount of time, but it also kept the conversations flowing without any of the awkward pauses when you would choose your response.
I agree with everything you said apart from this.

Alpha Protocol had, hands down, the worst dialogue system I've ever seen in a game.

You know that problem you occasionally get with Mass Effect where you pick what seems like a good dialogue choice but it turns out you misinterpreted the summary line and Shepard promptly tells your favourite character to go chew on a cactus? Alpha Protocol took that and magnified it. Since the dialogue choices only consisted of a single word, Mr Thorton was liable to do damn near anything. At the very start of the game a support character asks me how I'm going to get out of a locked and guarded room. I chose the option labelled 'Ambush', seemed like a good idea. In response, Thorton pipes up with, "Hey, set off the alarm. That'll let them know I'm here." I was then left facing an armed guy with nothing but my fists and the power of friendship. Hell, even the support character thought it was a stupid idea.

The time limit just made it worse. Trying to parse out exactly what each poorly telegraphed dialogue choice was going to result in and making a choice in just a few seconds? Not fun.
 

RatRace123

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To be fair to Obsidian, at least for KotOR 2, the rush Lucasarts put them under caused the story to suffer near the end and accounts for some of the polish, but yeah Obsidian needs to bug test way better.

I also agree about the Alpha Protocol conversation system, especially in how fluidly each conversation went.

Another thing I think Bioware should learn from Obsidian, is choices have more ramifications. Take Alpha Protocol once more; you have a huge impact on the storyline, characters can die early on, leaving out any important plot elements that they may contribute later on, impacting the story in a big way.
Bioware, to me seems to like having a status quo, which I don't mind, but it'd still be interesting to see them take more risks in the story like that.

I do like Bioware's characters better though, they have a knack for writing memorable characters, and they're usually better with their voice casting choices.

What I want to see is the two developers actually collaborate on one game, mixing the best of what they both have to offer. Could've been a possibility in the past, but with Bioware owned by EA and Obsidian... not, probably less likely now.
 

The_Lost_King

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RatRace123 said:
To be fair to Obsidian, at least for KotOR 2, the rush Lucasarts put them under caused the story to suffer near the end and accounts for some of the polish, but yeah Obsidian needs to bug test way better.
Dude the development cycle was cut buy 1 year that's more than a little polish
 

RatRace123

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The_Lost_King said:
RatRace123 said:
To be fair to Obsidian, at least for KotOR 2, the rush Lucasarts put them under caused the story to suffer near the end and accounts for some of the polish, but yeah Obsidian needs to bug test way better.
Dude the development cycle was cut buy 1 year that's more than a little polish
Well, it is still Obsidian. There would still be bugs and glitches.
 

Diablo2000

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It's just me who think Bioware only bring deception in this past two years?

At first they start to teasing us with that Jade Empire sequel that never came out, then there was Mass Effect 2 and his ridiculous plot(Writing still good though, help a bit) and Mass Effect 3 seem to go to the same way and finally that MMO thing that single existency makes so sad that I don't even want to think about.

EDIT: Dragon Age 2... how could I forget?

Now Obsidian, that's grown a lot... Their game's plot and writing are amazing. They still need to improve a bit in the gameplay and bugs\gliches area, but I really like their games nevertheless
 

Hal10k

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Obsidian are better at plot structure & story arcs; Bioware are better at characterization & dialogue. Bioware are screwed over considerably less often in their development cycles, so their games actually run. Obsidian have a cooler name. Those are the key differences I can come up with.
 

Monkeyman O'Brien

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I will agree that Mass Effects dialog options do feel extremely worthless. Especially when they add in the fights in ME2 so if you do not have enough Paragon/Renegade points you are fucked which cuts down your playstyle even more just making you farm points.
However I disagree with the Alpha Protocol thing. Some of us have lives and shit going on so forcing me to have timed responses is just a pain in the ass if someone comes in or the phone rings. All it does is mean I miss a lot of the story or have to go back and replay it.
 

The_Lost_King

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RatRace123 said:
The_Lost_King said:
RatRace123 said:
To be fair to Obsidian, at least for KotOR 2, the rush Lucasarts put them under caused the story to suffer near the end and accounts for some of the polish, but yeah Obsidian needs to bug test way better.
Dude the development cycle was cut buy 1 year that's more than a little polish
Well, it is still Obsidian. There would still be bugs and glitches.
well if it wasn't for Lucas the game would be 2x less buggy and 2x as great. and i never had any problems with alpha protocol.
 

Hal10k

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Meshakhad said:
The solution, I think, is to fuse BioWare and Obsidian into a single company.
How literally are we prepared to take that suggestion? I've got some contacts in genetics research and absolutely no sense of ethics.
 

neonsword13-ops

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Meshakhad said:
The solution, I think, is to fuse BioWare and Obsidian into a single company.
[HEADING=1]Bi-sidian: Future of RPGS![/HEADING] It's brilliant!

Anyway, having never played KOTOR, I can't really bare my opinions here.

Although, a bit off of the subject, I have mixed feelings on how Obsidian handled New Vegas. The wasteland felt too barren compared to F3, but the writing was great. The story was compelling (until you killed Benny) and the characters were interesting and fit within the universe.
 

Amakaze

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A partnership would be interesting.

I admit, Obsidian games don't have as much appeal to me as they seem to most gamers (Mostly because I don't seem to be as motivated by wanderlust, I guess). I've always like the story from a top down distant perspective, but up close it breaks down. You can usually practically see the scripting of a character in an obsidian game. They offer you more freedom, but that freedom comes implicitly with more ways to break the immersion. Obsidian characters are exactly that...computer programs, and they don't make you believe otherwise. Their stories are often great, but on the other hand the most enduring ones tend to be those you make for yourself, which is less credit to the writers and more to the sandbox toolkit.

Bioware games often have the opposite. They tend to delve deeper into a smaller number of characters, trying to present the impression that they have their own agendas, opinions, and motivations. Of course, like any AI, you'll never confuse them for alive, but its usually easier to imagine how Captain Anderson (Mass Effect) would react to something, as opposed to say Lucas Simms (Fallout 3). One feels like a person, the other is an NPC object.

Now, have Obsidian write a story and have Bioware tell it? I'd be intrigued. Give the former free reign to play with neat concepts while Bioware presents it in a compelling way and we've got a winner.

Edit: Choose an example from the wrong Fallout game, since it was made by Bethesda and not Obsidian. I'll stand by overall points however.