Bioware has changed... kinda.

[honestdiscussioner]

I'll agree and disagree with you.

Certainly Bioware seemed to be moving away from the RPG aspect of gaming, they said so themselves. They did say, however, they might be returning to it, in ME3.

And certainly DA:O was better than DA2. However I'd still say DA2 is a great game . . . or at least it would be a great game if it wasn't called Dragon Age 2. If it wasn't a Dragon Age game, or maybe it was Dragon Age: Side Story, that would have been acceptable too. Unfortunately, it didn't feel like a dragon age game, and there were enough differences in the world to make you acutely aware of that fact. When they discuss the Hero of Ferelden, you almost don't think they are actually talking about your former Warden, that this is a parallel universe.

Hmm . . . hey Bioware . . . I found a way out . . . DA2 was in a parallel universe. That's why the Darkspawn look more like random summoned creatures and not a nearly mindless unending hoarde. That's why the Templar uniform is changed.

I do feel DA2 is a good game, I disagree that the characters were deficient in any way. I think they each brought something to the table . . . except for maybe Anders who they basically just decided to butcher and make nearly everyone hate and relatively beloved character.
**spoiler**

Spoiler

When Anders destroys innocent lives by attacking the Chantry, I killed him. No second guessing, no remorse, nothing. He was a shadow of his former self, and that shadow wasn't very entertaining.

I think I'm going to have to write another post on this.

 

[Zhukov]

Mass Effect 2 has plot holes so large that the Destiny Ascension could slide right through and still have plenty of manouvering space.

I keep seeing people accuse ME2 of having huge plot holes. But whenever I ask them to elaborate, they never respond.

So... care to elaborate? What exactly were these huge plot holes?

I think that Shamus Young dissected the entire storytelling problem with Mass Effect 2 pretty well, so I'll let his excellent posts on the topic be my reply: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004

Ok, some of those are fair enough.

I agree that the final choice (destroy/preserve the collector base) was very poorly done. I also agree that there was a distinct lack of plot progression, although I think that's an inherent part of being in the middle of a trilogy while still trying to deliver some sort of self contained narrative (See: Halo 2, "I'm here to finish the fight").

Also, now that I think about it, the Alliance not doing anything about the abduction was silly and contrived. Same goes for Chakwas and Joker joining Cerberus.

The rest of his points... not so much.

- The "reboot" elements. They weren't necessary and I wish it could have been handled otherwise, but I don't see it as a plot hole.

- I consider the lack of foreshadowing regarding Cerberus and The Illusive man to be a weakness in the first game, not the second. And if turning them into well-intentioned extremists with amoral methods constitutes a retcon, then I say it's a retcon for the better. The Cerberus of ME2 was a great deal more interesting than the organisation from ME1 which consisted of nothing more than, "Evil, lol!"

- Reapers using organics. They did this a ton in ME1. Indoctrination. The Keepers. Corrupting the Rachni. Using Saren. And Vigil mentioned extensive use of indoctrinated Protheans.

- The bug. Mordin grew/built it from the data provided by the Quarian survivor.

- Final boss. We don't know the details of how Reapers are made. If they require organic components (colonist slurpee) then... yeah. What exactly contradicts this? The fact that it has a metal shell? Hardly. As for why they were building it, it's reproduction. Self perpetuation. Isn't that a reason unto itself?

 

[Quellist]

I loved the first ME and DA, the sequels not so much. ME2 was a semi-dissapointment, DA2 an enormous one.

I guess they just went mass-market and hardcore RPG fans are too small a demographic for them to really care about anymore...

 

[LogicNProportion]

I liked Mass Effect 2 a lot.

Haven't played Dragon Age 2, but having watched some friends take turns with it makes me sad because Dragon Age: Origins was one of my favorite games this gen.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

Mass Effect 2 kept enough Mass Effect to keep my interest. I've beaten it a couple of times and can't wait for the third.

Dragon Age 2 was just so jarringly different from the original that I couldn't even see it through to the end once. It felt more like Mass Effect to me only instead of run-n-gunning you're playing a beat-em-up with magic. I also hated that I had to play as a human. I have to play as a human in the real world...human's aren't all that fun.

 

[TheBritishAreComing]

I liked ME2 for the more fluid game-play, but it never even came close to the dialogue or story of ME1. and we all know how DA2 turned out.

 

[FateOrFatality]

It's EA. They've ruined Bioware. I intend to buy ME3 so I can finish the story I started years ago, and then stay away from Bioware until they fix their shit.

I loved Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age: Origins - they are some of my all time favorite games. ME2 was no where near as good as it's predecessor (although I still enjoyed it), and DA2 was the worst game I've played in a long time. There is definitely worse out there, but I only buy games I think I'll like and I don't like Bioware's games anymore.

 

[LTAshler]

I want my ME1 combat systems back; Alpha strikes with multiple abilities, allies and enemies that actually have reasonable health, and the ability to semi-safely run around a battlefield rather than having to stay behind cover.

Wait, You *Like* having broken, uninteresting combat? Look I'm all for heavy RPG elements but when it comes to gunplay, keep your grimy mitts off my aim.

 

[goldfalsebond]

no, you are not the only one, because no one is the only one with anything. not even the kid who is taking SCUBA lessons with the goal of becoming a Big Daddy is the only one....wait, that might be an exception, but who knows?

 

[Dr. wonderful]

Look, just because their last couple of games (developed by separate teams, no less) have had some subjective missteps (some more vocally addressed than others) does not mean "OMG THEY HAVE CHANGED FOR THE WORSE!" or that they have changed at all. Quit being fickle and give them the benefit of a track record before you start jumping down their throats.

Hey...you took my picture D:

Anywhoo.

Dragon age 2 and Origins are both damn good games. I also laughed whenever someone says they didn't have a choice about the endgame for 2. You have a choice: Fight templars or Fight Mages. That the choice. There is no 3rd option because Anders took that option out.

I've actually begun to wonder if BioWare's fame has gone to their heads.

After playing Dragon Age 2 (waiting until it was on sale for $10 on Impulse), I find myself baffled that they actually thought it would outsell Origins. Not because it was a bad game, it was pretty good.

The problem is that it is clear very little effort went into it.

The story is... well, absent. People keep saying the story is Hawke's "Rise to Power," but that's the problem. The hero's journey from pauper to Hero is an intrinsic part of any Fantasy Story. However, it's supposed to be driven by the main plot, with the main character's arc being a component of that. Origins did this, in fact, they had 6 potential arcs in a single story. Dragon Age 2's story isn't a story, it's a single character arc.

The side characters are also weak. The game does a decent job of fleshing them out eventually, but it comes to slowly. By the time you've learned enough to be interested in them, they've ceased to have any impact. A big thing that bugged me at least is there is no reason for most of them to be following you around. Varric, I understand, at least in the beginning, since he's helping you raise the money to join the expedition. But Merril? Why did she stick around after moving to town? Fenris? He's a fugitive, shouldn't he be laying low, or hunting that mage instead of following a rather well known figure around? Similar with Isabella. And why is the CAPTAIN OF THE GUARD following you?? There is no reason for it, and it makes the characters uninteresting because they're not acting like rational people.

There were things I liked about the game. The combat was actually kind of fun, even if there is way too much of it. The visual style is also much improved over Origins. I just feel that not enough time was spent on the game, and yet BioWare still expected to sell approx 5 million copies.

I honestly think they've fallen in love with their own legend. They've started to think they can do what they want and treat fans how they want and still be a huge deal. The saddest part is they may be right.

They've been one of my favorite developers for a very long time, but it's quickly getting to the point that everything I read about them makes me sad. This whole thing with the Liara statue is just the icing on the cake.

We've had a good run BioWare, but I think maybe it's time we parted ways.

I don't think it's that they've gotten drunk on fame and fandom...it's just that they've been bought by EA.

Un-huh.

So EA never ever had anything to do with Origins?

 

[tmande2nd]

Oh dear sweet Cthulhu why most this be brought up EVERY day?

Having played every bioware game from Baulder's gate through to Dragon Age 2, yes they have changed.
But then again so has gaming in general.

Go on, go back and try to play Baulder's gate.
Its a terrible looking, poorly explained thingy. The only reason I beat it so long ago was because I knew D and D very well from playing that with friends.

While I openly mock DA2 and ME2 for their stories, plot holes, and their genral linerairty. I do not think that they are going in a bad direction.

If they never changed we would still be playing emotionless mute androids that telepathically sent their thoughts to other people. While we stared at the back of their heads.

Also I expect to be flamed for having just said that from cRPG players who still like that.

 

[krazykidd]

Am I the only one that was disappointed with Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age II?

Every time you utter the phrase "am I the only one..." all the other people that are/doing/feeling/whatever, what you are about to desribe have their life spans shortened, and that a lot of people, this is the internet, not trying to be rude but if you think you are the only person with a given opinion you are incredibly wrong and you just might have an inflated opinion of yourself.

Again, I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, I'm just laying down some truth, you dig?

Not necessarily , if i say , am i the only one that liked deus ex : invisible war more than the original and HR , i would probably get laughed at , then stoned , then hanged then laughed at some more . And the 5 other people in the world that believes will abstain from agreeing with me .( this is an example i in no way, forme , or manner believe invisible war is better than any game )

OT : i liked ME2 more than ME1 , it was more fun to play and i am a big fan or rpgs and i hate 3rd person cover based shooter :/ . I did prefer dragon age origins to dragon age 2 , but i did find DA 2 fun to play even though the story was terrible ( non-existant even )

 

[putowtin]

Look, just because their last couple of games (developed by separate teams, no less) have had some subjective missteps (some more vocally addressed than others) does not mean "OMG THEY HAVE CHANGED FOR THE WORSE!" or that they have changed at all. Quit being fickle and give them the benefit of a track record before you start jumping down their throats.

Bravo my good man, bravo!

(I really like ME2 and DAII so there we go)

 

[GeorgW]

What worries me is that their co-founder said that RPGs are irrelevant, plus the EA factor. Still, I'd like to see how TOR is gonna turn out, they have spent most of their time and effort on it...

 

[SpaceBat]

Honestly, I felt Bioware really went downhill after KOTOR (Yes, Jade Empire was good, but it wasn't great and didn't compare in the slightest to their previous efforts. And Mass Effect had so many flaws, it makes Deadly Premonition look polished in comparison).

Really?
Because Kotor didn't have broken gameplay (so unbelievably unbalanced, it's ridiculous. Anyone with a brain can break their character very soon and very easily), doesn't entirely rely on a plot twist since the main story is bland and handled in a black-and-white manner and HK-47 isn't basically the only great character that came out of that game?

All of their games are flawed, including Kotor. So IMO, they started going downhill before Kotor, because KotoR is a good, but ridiculously overrated game.

 

[Smertnik]

ME2 is my favourite BW game by far. DA2 was quite mediocre but I still liked it more than DA:O. So yeah, to each his own.

 

[Ashbax]

Im gonna wait and see how the new Star Wars MMO turns out before accepting their death. However I already fear the end because they choose to join the cash cow of trying to make and mmo from one of the best single person series ever.

It doesn't look like a cash cow at all, get your facts straight, if you research it, it's basically KOTOR 3 in an MMO setting, and you can play it pretty much by yourself, with NPC companions, all the way until the only thing left to do is endgame, and even then you can make an alt if endgame and PvP etc offends you so much.

 

[Alade]

I love Mass Effect 1 and 2 equally, they are both my favorite games, the Mass Effect 2 gameplay is amazing, but only if you play it on insanity, it's much better than ME1 gameplay.

On the other hand I have to agree when it comes to dragon age, Dragon age 1 was a great game filled with flaws, the 2nd part was simply a bad game, a lot of bad things weren't changed, and a lot of the changes were bad.

I could care less about so called "RPG elements", for me an RPG is a game where you are the character, and your choices matter, not a game that requires math to play (not that I mind number crunching and min maxing, but it isn't what makes an RPG).

 

[Sjakie]

But therein lies my question for my fellow Escapists.

Am I the only one that was disappointed with Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age II?

With both sequels in their two current main franchises, I felt largely disconnected from the experience in terms of gameplay. I found that some of it was due to the removal of so many RPG mechanics and elements and streamlining of certain things. I also had trouble, especially in Dragon Age II, connecting with the story and characters. The whole experience just felt disjointed and cluttered to me.

As it stands, I greatly prefer the first Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins over their successors. I felt they were better written and played closer to something I was more accustomed to from them. The paranoid side of me thinks EA have dug their claws in too deep and have had an influence on Bioware's work.

With that, I'd like to hear some honest impressions, especially from those of you that have played Bioware's games since Baldur's Gate.

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EDIT: Here's the thing, today I watched my friend beat Dragon Age II for the third time overall. Neither of us had touched it since around when it came out, I beat it once and I felt like I was done. He went ahead and beat it with each class. So I'm half-watching him, half-playing another game, and it started to all come back to me... how unimpressed I was with it the first time. Just so many things about it are awful. Looking at the bigger picture though, Bioware isn't the only developer out there doing this. You can't please everyone all of the time but the people that brought you to the dance should be priority, namely those of us that have supported them and bought their games in the past. We don't all react the same way for drastic changes to the tried and true Bioware formula.

I'm with you for the most part. Can't really say i was let down by ME2 but certainly by DA2, i hate that game and think it's just a cashcow considering the lack of work they put in there. The characters where well written but just not very interesting, stereotypes really.
The combat was shit on harder difficulties: they just pasted on another wave of enemies everytime and just not viable on lower level. The scrapped inventory management in DA2 made me crinch as well.
ME2 was lackluster in gameplay mechanics: take cover and shoot, rinse, repeat x1000.
The way Bioware is giving all their characters sidemissions for loyalty is lacking:
If you did not do that side-mission for char X, then char X dies/leaves...you can see that coming from a mile away, it feels like slapped on longevity.
Also the characters don't really contribute to the whole story whetever you did or did not do the mission, some more then others maybe. DA2 tries to work that in their endgame which is a plus though, but in ME2 the characters dont have anything more to say to you after you did the side-missions unless you want to bump uglies.

Everybody (well, almost) disliked the Mako in ME1, but considering we got planetscanning for it in ME2: i prefer the open world, riding around and discovering stuff in the paths less traveled like those 2 ancient temples. Yes, they sold us the hovertank later on as DLC which is just stripped content to nikkel and dime us.

EA likes to sell us half games so they can squeeze us for the rest afterwards!
Frankly if their upcomming MMO did not have the Star Wars brand, i don't think many would be interested. It's gameplay really looks uninteresting unless you play a jedi/sith at least then you get to chop off limbs...o, wait.
EA will be selling us extra zones/planets for overpriced DLC/expansions for that game, i won't be touching it.

I just wish Bioware made a move and went over to Bethesda/Zenimax. Imagine their open worlds combined with Bioware's original writing: that's a game i would pre-order without looking at any trailers

 

[scorptatious]

As for what I think, I found Mass Effect 2 to be a great game. Sure I do think Mass Effect 1 did a few things better. (like having a better antagonist) But overall, I found each of them to be a very enjoyable experience that warranted multiple playthroughs. Also, I anticipate the arrival of Mass Effect 3.

As for the Dragon Age games, I haven't played any of them so I can't say anything about them.