Bioware let's have a talk about your conversation system.

[OniaPL]

I dislike the dialogue wheel and also slightly Hawke, as I would have enjoyed being me in a fantasy world rather than being in movies watching Hawke... They could have at least added an option "Show what you will say as a pop-up in the corner when you mouse over a choice". Also, I felt the combat was rather easy in the demo. You can outrun your enemies, and the Ogre can be easily defeated by hit-and-run tactics, as when you are not close it will rush or throw a rock; both are easily avoided (And the combat, in general, was a little over-the-top for me). I'm just afraid that Dragon Age 2 won't be the kind of RPG experience I am looking for: Long and hard.

However, I am probably going to buy it, as I loved Origins, it's characters, story and the world.

 

[Critical92]

the way hawke is made, it would have been silly if he hadn't talked, in dragon age 1 it seemed to fit it.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

I prefer the ME dialogue wheel option to DA:O. DA just felt a little too much to me like I was playing a jRPG from the early 00s rather than a modern game. Eventually I suspect there will be a game like others have mentioned where they combine both the voiced options of ME but the greater selection of DA.

I'd also like to draw attention again to Alpha Protocol, which I very much liked as a dialogue system. Three responses, Aggressive, Suave, Professional, you know which button does what, but there's no written lines to make you think you were going to say something else. The system was not without its flaws, for example the numerous times when the three emotions didn't quite sum up the conversation options so they left you having to read and decipher one word responses instead of at least a sentence fragment, but it was more immersive than any other dialogue system I've seen in any other game, when it started flowing and feeling natural.

 

[Trolldor]

I prefer the ME dialogue wheel option to DA:O. DA just felt a little too much to me like I was playing a jRPG from the early 00s rather than a modern game. Eventually I suspect there will be a game like others have mentioned where they combine both the voiced options of ME but the greater selection of DA.

I'd also like to draw attention again to Alpha Protocol, which I very much liked as a dialogue system. Three responses, Aggressive, Suave, Professional, you know which button does what, but there's no written lines to make you think you were going to say something else. The system was not without its flaws, for example the numerous times when the three emotions didn't quite sum up the conversation options so they left you having to read and decipher one word responses instead of at least a sentence fragment, but it was more immersive than any other dialogue system I've seen in any other game, when it started flowing and feeling natural.

DA:O reminded you of linear jRPGs? Really?

 

[Meggiepants]

Except it really isn't you saying those things or even you playing you. A writer came up with six responses you get to choose from. If you really were responding to Alistair, you might have something other to say than the "Smart Ass Response," the "Mean Response," the "Nice Response," or the "I don't really care" response.

Don't get me wrong, I love Dragon Age. But I make no illusions when I choose dialog options. They aren't my choices. I'm choosing the dialog David Gaider wrote that I like the best. I didn't say those things, he did. I don't really see the difference between that and having a character like Shepard or Hawke say those things for me.

Either way, I don't get to say what I really would say if I really had a choice in the matter. And this becomes painfully obvious to me when I am forced down a particular path if I want to say, convince Alistair that killing Loghain for vengeance sake doesn't fit with his character one little bit, considering every step of the way he urges you to show mercy to all kinds of people who have been killing others. But I get no Persuade option, not even if his loyalty is 100, my cunning is 50 and I've picked all the persuasion skills. Because the writer wants the story to go in a contrived direction, so they force me to choose from 4 options which all lead to the same end.

I like more options, it does give a little more nuance, but it is only the illusion of choice you are getting in DA. They might say three or four different words with each choice, but ultimately, regardless of your choice, you are set on a couple of potential paths.

Besides, I hate unvoiced protagonists. It's weird to have everyone voiced but you. It draws me out of a game, not into it.

 

[loremazd]

I dont really get it, to be honest.

The non dialog wheel usually consisted of about 4 responses, as well as some "will you please explain more?" responses.

Now, 3 or 4 options, and some "will you please explain more" responses. The only real difference is you choose intent rather than the precise wording.

 

[Dastardly]

snip

The difference, as I see it, is whether you are playing a character you created, or playing an existing character within the game's story/mythology.

If you're playing an existing character, it makes sense that you have fewer options. You're choosing what flavor of that character you're playing, but it's within an existing framework. So, you get maybe three options, basically boiling down to "good, bad, neutral."

If you are creating your own character, this changes drastically. Far more options need to be available, because the game is effectively putting words in your character's mouth. In an MMO in particular, this can feel extremely forced and limiting if there aren't enough options available--you're paying rent on this character, so you expect far more control.

But I think there's another facet of this that is often ignored: the character's voice. Plenty of MMOs let you choose a voice for your character, but of course limit the dialogue to various battle cries and such. The reason is that when you create a character, it's not just about the looks. It's the sound and style of the character that you want to create.

If a game is fully voice-acted, that means it's far less likely that you're going to have multiple voices to choose from, due to expense. That means all human male protagonists will sound the same. All alien female protagonists will sound the same. For a single-player game, this is (debatably) acceptable, since you won't run into any other protagonists... but for multiplayer, or an MMO? This shouldn't fly.

If you aren't going to provide robust options for voicing and dialogue choice, it's better to have the silent protagonist. Otherwise, you move away from "character creation" and you step toward "character rental."

(ON DIALOGUE: If you want a branching dialogue system without forcing particular phrases into every player's mouth, there's always the option of more abstract dialogue choices. For instance:

NPC: "I don't like your offer, pal. It's insulting. Give me a reason to change my mind."

Player: - [Intelligence] Attempt to convince him of the value of your offer.
- [Persuasion] Attempt to persuade him to see your side.
- [Aggression] Attempt to coerce him into agreement.
- [Etc...]

This way, you're choosing what your character is trying to do, based on what attribute you feel most defines your character... but they're not shoving stock phrases into your character's mouth.)

 

[BeeRye]

This won't be true in five years time. Eventually we will see a dialogue system like DA:O that is fully voiced and it is a win win for everyone.

Which is what The Witcher did way back in 2007. And that game kicked ass.

OT: I'm not too fond of the dialog wheel either. I like knowing exactly what my character is going to say. With Mass Effect, and now Dragon Age, I have to play "guess what he's going to say", and quite a few times the actual dialog didn't match up too well with what the summaries were.

The wheel also kills role-playing. Mass Effect is not a role-playing game. You are Shepard, you play Shepard, and you choose responses he would say, not you. And now DA2 seems to be doing that. People seem to confuse role-playing with stat-building. This is wrong. Role-playing is creating a character, and, well role-playing him/her.

In Mass Effect, you are Shepard. No matter what. In DA2, you are Hawke, no matter what. And you cannot break out of these character molds and shape your own. Your set with what Bioware gives you. And if you try to divert from that, you get railroaded back into being Shepard/Hawke.

Hopefully DA2 offers more role-playing then Mass Effect, but with the wheel I doubt it will be the case.

As I've stated before, I don't see how Hawke having a name and voice limits your options any more than in Origins. There are just inescapable facets of your character. In Origins, you are a Grey Warden, no matter what. You can never just decide to flee and leave Alistair to it. You always fight the blight, and always defeat it by the end of the game. It is very limited. But this is limitation is ok because, hey, you bought a game that sold itself on the experience of being a Grey Warden.

Dragon Age 2 is selling itself on the experience of being "The Champion". Only, unlike DA:O, just what this means is a little ambiguous. People need to stop thinking that Origins gave you any more choice than an RPG with a set character. You got your origin story, which meant almost nothing for the purposes of the rest of the game. You got to defeat the blight by the end. In between you got to make choices. In DA2 you have a backstory. By the end you are the Champion. In between you get to make choices. It's the same thing.

If you want an RPG where you can do anything, and everything you do affects the world around you, you really have no choice but to play a paper/dice rolling rpg with real people. Game developers can't cram every possibility into their games, so all the choices you get are finite and defined before you even play the game. A Game Master can react to everything you do to give you a proper role playing experience.

 

[Dethpixie]

And I really don't buy into the "blank slate" school of video game lead character design--it can work, in certain situations, but not all the time--so I kind of like the way they went with Mass Effect and DA2.

Generally I'd agree with you entirely. When I played Half Life, Bioshock or Halo I wasn't me, I was the guy in Master Chief or Gordon Freeman's head. Dead Space was worst because you'd think through all of that Issac might have had something to say about the horrors he'd encountered.

Dragon Age: Origins is about the only time I liked the "blank slate" model because you were offered enough choice to really make the character your own and actually role-play. That said, I love the Mass Effects and I trust that Bioware is going to do a great job with Dragon Age 2.

 

[twistedheat15]

I dont really get it, to be honest.

The non dialog wheel usually consisted of about 4 responses, as well as some "will you please explain more?" responses.

Now, 3 or 4 options, and some "will you please explain more" responses. The only real difference is you choose intent rather than the precise wording.

Yes, but ppl have to ***** and cry about things being dumb down for every rpg that isn't a slow paced, dice rolling, wall of menu's. I don't mind either, DA:O just laid out a bunch of options and had you pick the one that made ppl happy or mad, but still nothing "you'd" prob want to say. The wheel has you pick a stance where you don't know how ppl are gonna feel about it, so more consideration came into play. I like when you try picking nice/good options on ppl, and they just tell you fck off for it, but picking a asshole/evil response makes them respect you.

A lot of DA:O options was stuff like:
"I really like working with you, how do you feel about me?"
:Of course! I couldn't do any of this w/o you!
:Meh your alright, kinda annoying though.
:Tell me more about yourself.
:I once made a butterfly sandwich.

 

[Legion]

Bioware I have one last thing I need you to hear. For the love Christ stop having Sheppard/Hawke answering on their own!
You remember the first time Sheppard spoke without a prompt from you? Yeah, I still get pissed every time that happens.

This part I definitely agree with, if we are the character then they should say nothing without us choosing to.

Also, Shepard only has one 'p' in it.

I do adore the voice they gave for LadyHawke though, so, so sexy.

 

[Irridium]

As I've stated before, I don't see how Hawke having a name and voice limits your options any more than in Origins. There are just inescapable facets of your character. In Origins, you are a Grey Warden, no matter what. You can never just decide to flee and leave Alistair to it. You always fight the blight, and always defeat it by the end of the game. It is very limited. But this is limitation is ok because, hey, you bought a game that sold itself on the experience of being a Grey Warden.

Dragon Age 2 is selling itself on the experience of being "The Champion". Only, unlike DA:O, just what this means is a little ambiguous. People need to stop thinking that Origins gave you any more choice than an RPG with a set character. You got your origin story, which meant almost nothing for the purposes of the rest of the game. You got to defeat the blight by the end. In between you got to make choices. In DA2 you have a backstory. By the end you are the Champion. In between you get to make choices. It's the same thing.

If you want an RPG where you can do anything, and everything you do affects the world around you, you really have no choice but to play a paper/dice rolling rpg with real people. Game developers can't cram every possibility into their games, so all the choices you get are finite and defined before you even play the game. A Game Master can react to everything you do to give you a proper role playing experience.

True, but in Origins it was my Warden. I controlled who he was, what he said, and his personality. I was able to use my imagination to make the character my own.

In DA2, I can't do that. Its Hawke, and just Hawke. He already has a voice, a personality, everything. Its all done for you, the only way you can make him your own is by just changing his face and by controlling the tone of his answers.

 

[MakazeX]

*snip*

------Sorry Belgian_Waffles, we will change it right away!-------------------I think you're being a bit too angry about all this. Lets talk this over

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (o) -------------Perhaps you need some waffles!

NO! You will not get in the way of our system, DIE FOOL!------------------I think you should back off a bit and calm down!

Okay no, on a serious note. I like the conversational systems, they might be cheesy and they might be changing from full control. It isn't the same as before I agree, but we're not playing as the same character from dragon age. We're playing as Hawke, who is going to probably be another part of the story for the main character, your character. (See it as if you're expanding the world for your character, that's how I'm looking at it at least.)

In the end, the character from Dragon Age: Origins was never us anyways, I still felt like I was his little angel on his shoulder, or devil in some cases. Whispering to him, telling him what to do. It was like some evil twisted fantasy! (The one where you control peoples minds.)

I back Bioware 100% on most choices and I feel the same for this one. In my opinion I believe what ever choices they make, even the bad ones are going towards in the giving us the best game they can. Mass effect 2 for example made some horrible choices, but they worked, and bioware took into note about the bad choices and they're being sorted for number 3.

 

[kurupt87]

(Side note: did you guys notice that Wynne is voice by god damned Susan Boyle?)

Heh, no it wasn't. It was voiced by Susan Boyd Joyce, unfortunately not Susan Boyle; as epic as that would have been.

Here's the problem though you're not playing yourself, you're playing Sheppard.
Let's jump to Dragon Age: Origins for a second.
In DA:O I wasn't anybody, I was just myself.

And that's where your argument falls down; in DA2 you are playing Hawke, not a faceless and nameless hero.

The only real trouble, for me, with the wheel is that you can't see the entire line of dialogue; that can break immersion. The little hint doesn't give a decent enough precursor of what the line is or, as happened to me several times in ME2, that line turns out to be opposite or radically different in tone to what you interpreted the hint to mean.

Edit: As the poster above also points out, that misinterpretation of tone within a written line of dialogue can still happen even if you know exactly what is being said. You read something and assume it's sarcastic and you're responded to as if it were sincere, the opposite also occurs. However, we play the story we are given, anything else is the realm of mods. Game mechanics have to improve to the point that there are no misunderstandings between game and player, not make them more rife.

Final point, a somewhat blunt but truthful quote from David Gaidar on BSN, thread link here [http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/6192420];

And, yes, I know you like to imagine your own delivery, and resign any failure of the world to heed that as their misunderstanding, as if they are incapable of understanding communication. So, yes, we no longer allow you to play a character with Asperger's.

 

[Jamboxdotcom]

i'm firmly in favor of much greater variety of dialogue options, even (or maybe especially) if it means they remain unvoiced. but then, i was raised on old school isometric WRPGs like Fallout 1&2 and Baldur's Gate. it wasn't unusual to have 6-8 dialogue options. and it. was. awesome.

 

[Cheesepower5]

We have been playing RPG's with pre-made characters since the NES. Opinions will vary but most people understand that you don't need a character creator to be an RPG. In ME you are Shepard, you are stepping into his shoes. You are playing a role and making decisions that affect the game.

It always seemed to me like I was just hijacking Shepherd's mind instead of being my own character whenever I played Mass Effect, but that's just me.

Like the little angel and devil standing on each shoulder...LOL

This needs to be a Bioware RPG RIGHT NOW.

The character you play is preset like Hawke and Shepard, but instead of a dialogue wheel you can choose to do what the angel wants, what the character wants or what the devil wants. You could be some Schizophrenic guy in a modern setting, or something to that effect.

 

[DVS Storm]

In Dragon Age 2 demo, the game gave the gamer a hint about what they were going to say in the middle of the dialoque wheel(as in colors and some symbols). And the neutral option seems to have changed to sarcasm/joke option at least in some points of the game.

(And I personally could'nt find the most fitting(or what I would've said) thing to say in the old system either)

I think that dialoque wheel is superior to the old system. The fact that you chacracter has a voice too is awesome. But this, of course, is a personal preference.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

This won't be true in five years time. Eventually we will see a dialogue system like DA:O that is fully voiced and it is a win win for everyone.

Which is what The Witcher did way back in 2007. And that game kicked ass.

OT: I'm not too fond of the dialog wheel either. I like knowing exactly what my character is going to say. With Mass Effect, and now Dragon Age, I have to play "guess what he's going to say", and quite a few times the actual dialog didn't match up too well with what the summaries were.

The wheel also kills role-playing. Mass Effect is not a role-playing game. You are Shepard, you play Shepard, and you choose responses he would say, not you. And now DA2 seems to be doing that. People seem to confuse role-playing with stat-building. This is wrong. Role-playing is creating a character, and, well role-playing him/her.

In Mass Effect, you are Shepard. No matter what. In DA2, you are Hawke, no matter what. And you cannot break out of these character molds and shape your own. Your set with what Bioware gives you. And if you try to divert from that, you get railroaded back into being Shepard/Hawke.

Hopefully DA2 offers more role-playing then Mass Effect, but with the wheel I doubt it will be the case.

This. Having to guess what your character will say is infuriating. In DA2, Bioware is adding context to the choices, but it still isn't the same. And yes, The Witcher was ahead of its time.

 

[BeeRye]

True, but in Origins it was my Warden. I controlled who he was, what he said, and his personality. I was able to use my imagination to make the character my own.

In DA2, I can't do that. Its Hawke, and just Hawke. He already has a voice, a personality, everything. Its all done for you, the only way you can make him your own is by just changing his face and by controlling the tone of his answers.

I don't know what to make of your stance though. You control your Warden's personality by selecting from predefined answers. They're just not voiced. The moment in the game where I want to do something and the game does not allow me (Say killing Alistair, Anora and Loghain in the Landsmeet and declaring yourself king) he ceases to be my warden, and instead becomes a version of my warden imposed on me by the developer. I don't think this is an absolute gamebreaker and it doesn't bother me, but I see absolutely no difference between Origins and DA2. Your choices are still restricted, they're just not voiced. If DA2 showed you the exact sentence Hawke would utter before you chose it, it would be identical to Origins in that respect.

And it isn't any more ambiguous either. Its only that way because we don't know quite what he did TO become the champion, while you DO KNOW what the Warden did to become the "Hero of Fereldan". Now if you ask me, there is 0 difference there.

How is that less ambiguous than Origins? "What you did to become the Champion" is the actual game itself. The result of what you did is not the game. Killing the Archdemon is what you do in Origins, and it was obvious from the very start. What do you do in DA2? I don't know for sure. Before it was released, Origins basically told you both what you will be doing in the game and what its result will be (Kill Archdemon-stop blight). DA2 basically tells you what you the result of what you do will be (become the Champion) without telling you exactly what you will do. I certainly find that more ambiguous than Origins.

But Origins did give you more choice. Its going to be obvious that Hawke survives throughout the whole game. At least in Origins you could control if your character died or not, or if Morrigan has the super-baby, and your character will be doing afterwords.

Maybe the dwarf is telling the story after Hawke is dead. There was nothing that suggested to me he had to be alive at the time the story is being recounted, although I do find it likely. As for the Morrigan super baby thing, yes the game gave you a choice. What makes you think that DA2 will not give you such choices? Just because Hawke has a voice you no longer are confronted by choices? Who says there will be no moment towards the end of the game where you will be given the option to sacrafice yourself? Who says Anders/Vengence will not go bat-shit crazy and you have the choice to kill him or save him? Giving you choices is what Dragon Age did. It's absurd to think that the sequel won't do the same. In fact, Bioware seem very pleased with themselves that they have made choices you make in the early game show their consequences later on.

 

[Irridium]

True, but in Origins it was my Warden. I controlled who he was, what he said, and his personality. I was able to use my imagination to make the character my own.

In DA2, I can't do that. Its Hawke, and just Hawke. He already has a voice, a personality, everything. Its all done for you, the only way you can make him your own is by just changing his face and by controlling the tone of his answers.

I don't know what to make of your stance though. You control your Warden's personality by selecting from predefined answers. They're just not voiced. The moment in the game where I want to do something and the game does not allow me (Say killing Alistair, Anora and Loghain in the Landsmeet and declaring yourself king) he ceases to be my warden, and instead becomes a version of my warden imposed on me by the developer. I don't think this is an absolute gamebreaker and it doesn't bother me, but I see absolutely no difference between Origins and DA2. Your choices are still restricted, they're just not voiced. If DA2 showed you the exact sentence Hawke would utter before you chose it, it would be identical to Origins in that respect.

For me, its the fact that I knew exactly what my Warden would say in origins is what I liked most. I like knowing what my character is going to say. With DA2, and Mass Effect, I have to guess at what he's going to say. Multiple times I've had Shepard say something that was not related to the little summary. Mainly when I try saying that he's not working for Cerberus(he then says that he is working for Cerberus). This didn't happen much, but it happened enough for it to really get annoying. There's also the issue of not knowing the tone of what you'll say. Femshep's dialog with Jacob is a prime example of this(she'll start flirting with Jacob out of the blue). Granted this is minimized in DA2 now that we can see the tone of the words, but there's still the issue of not knowing what he'll really say.

In short, I liked Origin's dialog system better because I can pick exactly what my character was going to say, rather then pick a summary and hope the actual dialog matches.