The fuck? Could you calm the offended savior act? I didn't say anything about how this shit isn't normal and thus, is obviously "other." I don't believe that at all. Hell, I'm not even mad at BioWare's writers for including diversity like they do. Mostly I'm just pissed at fans that'll dismiss any character as soon as they learn that they're straight/white/male without even knowing anything about them. .
I didn't mean it that way, I just meant that when it comes to this kind of thing no one questions what is considered the "norm" no one EVER says "well make him a white guy as long as it makes sense" but they sure as hell do when its a female or other character
the thing is these things do not exist in a vacuum, in our world most media is skewed a very certain way, so when we see deviations of coarse people will care more, and if that thing turns out to be good (ones opinion on DA:I non withstanding) then even better!
If you're complaining because Dorian and Sera are gay or something. Grow up, Dorian at least is a great character not defined by his sexuality. I think Sera is a crappy character personally but nothing against her.
Thedas is just a place where sexuality is not an issue mainly except in Tevinter. And that's fine. If you don't want a gay romance in the game don't start a gay romance, it's easy to avoid.
I think its kind of unfortunate that people are complaining more about the fact that the characters that are gay...and less about the fact that the entire game just goes...You murderer! Oh you have this green thing on your hand...you're here to save the world! Save the world our savior! SAVE IT! And, BTW, I also love you very much, whether you are gay or straight...one of us...right here in this hand crafted little group...loves you!
The triteness of the story doesn't develop from its "political correctness" it develops from the fact that the story is trite to begin with. Love interests are meaningless because there is no real development of the character.
Commander Shepard went from Alliance Navy to N7 to savior(destroyer) of the whole goddamn galaxy over the period of three games...Shepard's arc was believable, their relationships were mostly organic...the Inquisitor on the other hand seems like an attempt to create a Dragon Age Shepard (again...cause Hawke didn't work out, so BioWare figured, well if we let people pretend the character is their character then maybe we can have our Dragon Age Shepard this time) in the space of one game. To go from nothing/nobody, to the most important person walking around in Thedas aside from perhaps Flemeth..its patently ludicrous..the story is rushed to the point of being unable to functionally dispel disbelief at times.
Anyways, the issue shouldn't be the "political correctness" of the writing of the characters, but the writing of the entire game as a whole leaves a huge open door for criticism.
Did anyone else find the OP really hard to understand? I don't know what exactly the topic poster is complaining about, he just doesn't like companions? or maybe just the Bioware Companions? or is the complaint about the romance options in Bioware games. This whole topic seems to be very vague.
Bioware has almost always hinged a lot of its writing on its quirky companion ensemble and shallow cheesy romance scenes, even as far back as BG 2 had this kind of writing going on, so what exactly are you asking Bioware to do? Go back to something they've never really done, because companions, companion quests, and corny romance have been Bioware staples for a lot longer than a few years, it sounds more like you are just fed up with Bioware's boilerplate storytelling in general.
Really, the only thing I'm sick of regarding companions in Bioware games is the romance options being really shallow, and never going anywhere beyond first date, early sex territory. Mass Effect is where this was most egregious, with each game in the series hitting the reset button on any relationships, basically making it feel even shallower than RPG video game romances usually do. Bioware's romances aren't necessarily bad, but they try to do too much with too little resource wise, so they come off as corny, they do this with a lot of character development and sidequest plotlines, but the nature of romance makes these tricks stand out and be much more noticeable.
That's one of those ideas that sounds awesome on paper, until you actually try to implement and develop it and find out it's way too complicated to work as presented. It's not just that gamers don't care, but the sheer amount of dialogue a system like that would require would be insane, even if you cut out race and sex selection to narrow it down to a single voice actor.
To use a system like that in a AAA game with voice acting and all the other bells and whistles like combat and character design you would need for the game, you would probably need to boil it down into character archetypes, like selecting the compassionate, snarky, or aggressive responses for Hawke in DA2, except have it as a system where you select the archetype at the beginning, and your character tailors their responses around the archetype selected, creating suibtably similar or different responses to the main storyline within the game. It would require a lot of adaptation, but such a system could probably work, it would be difficult as hell to make the different archetypes feel truly unique in the world though.
Ambient_Malice said:
Myself, I was always bemused by how Mass Effect 2/3 glossed over the fact sex with aliens is kinda... bestiality. AFAIK, there isn't a single human character in the ME universe who points this out. (I never read the novels, though.)
I know this is a little late to respond to this, but screw it. The reason they glossed over this is because sex with aliens is only bestiality if you strip pretty much everything that makes bestiality morally objectionable away from the term. So basically not bestiality at all. Really only bestiality in a literal definition sense, which would be pointless for the game to bring up, because the debate over the morality of interspecies sex between consenting parties is entirely different from the debate surrounding interspecies sex where only one party is capable of giving informed consent.
The idea that interspecies sex is always bestiality pretty much goes flying out the window when you introduce intelligent alien life capable of meaningful communication with humanity. The reason the term is so broad, is because we have yet to run into intelligent alien life, so it remains an adequate expression for all interspecies sex as there is currently no other species capable of consenting in the way we define it.
I think its kind of unfortunate that people are complaining more about the fact that the characters that are gay...and less about the fact that the entire game just goes...You murderer! Oh you have this green thing on your hand...you're here to save the world! Save the world our savior! SAVE IT! And, BTW, I also love you very much, whether you are gay or straight...one of us...right here in this hand crafted little group...loves you!
The triteness of the story doesn't develop from its "political correctness" it develops from the fact that the story is trite to begin with. Love interests are meaningless because there is no real development of the character.
Commander Shepard went from Alliance Navy to N7 to savior(destroyer) of the whole goddamn galaxy over the period of three games...Shepard's arc was believable, their relationships were mostly organic...the Inquisitor on the other hand seems like an attempt to create a Dragon Age Shepard (again...cause Hawke didn't work out, so BioWare figured, well if we let people pretend the character is their character then maybe we can have our Dragon Age Shepard this time) in the space of one game. To go from nothing/nobody, to the most important person walking around in Thedas aside from perhaps Flemeth..its patently ludicrous..the story is rushed to the point of being unable to functionally dispel disbelief at times.
Anyways, the issue shouldn't be the "political correctness" of the writing of the characters, but the writing of the entire game as a whole leaves a huge open door for criticism.
I think they justify it well by saying all the rules have been thrown out. The Divine is dead, there's a leadership vacuum and they need someone as a figurehead to do the job. You're not even first choice. Cassandra said they were looking for Hawke to lead the Inquisition at first.
I think its kind of unfortunate that people are complaining more about the fact that the characters that are gay...and less about the fact that the entire game just goes...You murderer! Oh you have this green thing on your hand...you're here to save the world! Save the world our savior! SAVE IT! And, BTW, I also love you very much, whether you are gay or straight...one of us...right here in this hand crafted little group...loves you!
The triteness of the story doesn't develop from its "political correctness" it develops from the fact that the story is trite to begin with. Love interests are meaningless because there is no real development of the character.
Commander Shepard went from Alliance Navy to N7 to savior(destroyer) of the whole goddamn galaxy over the period of three games...Shepard's arc was believable, their relationships were mostly organic...the Inquisitor on the other hand seems like an attempt to create a Dragon Age Shepard (again...cause Hawke didn't work out, so BioWare figured, well if we let people pretend the character is their character then maybe we can have our Dragon Age Shepard this time) in the space of one game. To go from nothing/nobody, to the most important person walking around in Thedas aside from perhaps Flemeth..its patently ludicrous..the story is rushed to the point of being unable to functionally dispel disbelief at times.
Anyways, the issue shouldn't be the "political correctness" of the writing of the characters, but the writing of the entire game as a whole leaves a huge open door for criticism.
I think they justify it well by saying all the rules have been thrown out. The Divine is dead, there's a leadership vacuum and they need someone as a figurehead to do the job. You're not even first choice. Cassandra said they were looking for Hawke to lead the Inquisition at first.
A bare justification at best. It doesn't really change the narrative direction that thrusts your character down a hero's journey that attempts to develop a level of weight that it can't carry in one game span.
1. Don't do any romances. Bioware suck at making them convincing or fun, so the time and effort can be better spent elsewhere.
2. Less grimdark!
BG2 is generally considered to be Bioware's best work and it's good to remember how it was mostly light-hearted and corny. There's serious bits too, but BG2 is for the most part a fun adventure.
Serious fiction is actually harder to pull off properly than fun and Bioware really failed at grimdark in the Dragon Age series and Mass Effect's writing team did merely an okay job at space opera (with the help of better writers who have left by now), so they should make it easier on themselves and take their plots and characters less serious for better results.
Then there's also a difficult fix and that is tighter, more responsive and harder gameplay. ME seems to be developing in the right direction, but DA is becoming even more diluted with many poorly executed ideas stuck together in one game.
Ironic, considering that line is so dopey I could have mistakingly assumed it was written by Bioware! XD
I can?t understand why people are freaking out over characters? sexuality. I doesn?t affect the gameplay or story of Bioware?s games, so why the heck is everyone getting so worked up about it. Last I checked, when optional things are unpleasant, the best thing to do would be to avoid them or ignore them.
Why not get irate about something meaningful, like the ridiculous healing system. No healing spells and a limited amount of potions at one time? THAT?S something that has to go! They had to put in a dumb L4D revival system because followers die too often. And unable to put points into individual stats? That?s like forcing us to play on Auto-Level up. Baby?s first RPG anyone? Those were some really stupid design choices. Optional gay characters? Whoop-de-doo. Don?t like a follower? Don?t talk recruit to him/her.
Oh, and for the record, I?m gay. (I?m really not, but like the OP, I?m saying so in order to deflect criticism)
Ironic, considering the reason it wasn't included in the first Mass Effect.
In fact, the other side appears to be the "politically correct" side here. We can't have gay characters because it offends them and hurts their feelings or something. Oh noes, optional homosexuality, whatever shall we do!
Where was I? Oh yeah. You're blaming the wrong side for "political correctness" here.
(before anyone tries anything "clever," note the word choices)
I can?t understand why people are freaking out over characters? sexuality. I doesn?t affect the gameplay or story of Bioware?s games, so why the heck is everyone getting so worked up about it. Last I checked, when optional things are unpleasant, the best thing to do would be to avoid them or ignore them.
Your profile says you're American, so surely you must have heard at least one of these sob stories about good, straight American Christian Republicans who are totally straight but were lured down the path of darkness because some hot young piece of ass came along and they just had to tape it but they are TOTALLY NOT GAY because MURRICA and JAYSUS, right?
Optional homosexuality in games is exactly like that. If you put it in, the offended parties HAVE to partake. They can't help themselves!
Oh, and for the record, I'm gay. (I'm really not, but like the OP, I'm saying so in order to deflect criticism)
their presence in any work of fiction does not need justification outside of fitting the stting, it does not need judgment aside from "have they totally fudged this up?" [i/]not from you of all demographics[/i]
[img/]http://i.imgur.com/5LasHJF.gif[/img] [footnote/]disclaimer: the use of the word "*****" in this context is not directed at any particual poster or meant to cause offence, its just the gif was perfect![/footnote]
yes I damn well said it and I'm sorry if it doesn't pander to some peoples self congratulatory "sit around the campfire and sing kumbya" version things but I am sooooo sick of the self appointed committee of what is and is not acceptable kicking a shit fit because they think THEY ONLY REASON PEOPLE WOULD INCLUDE FREAKS LIKE US IN THEIR ART IS BECAUSE SOMONE FORCED THEM
*deep breaths*....ok
[please ignore everything above this point]
Saetha" post="9.866100.21649218 said:
Here is a cookie. In fact have the whole jar. The self-appointed king of cookies, yours truly here, has decided to give you cookies for thy perfect post. Thy diction, Thy anger and Thy entire being shall fall at my feet and join me in the dark side, dispensing cookies to all who deserve it. And together we shall rule the interwebz with our cookies.
I'd go a step further, if one wants to talk about altering the way relationships work and how blank-slate protagonists could be improved... drop the combat mechanic. Don't make the personality traits/perks integral to the combat mechanics, make it an absolute side-tree that only affects how your character interacts with NPCs and more how NPCs view your character.
If we really want a more diverse world, we should also strive to bring the current state of diversity mirrored in a game universe. Maybe a gay or minority character is marginalized or ignored (or worse) because of their orientation, or minority status and it shows in every NPC interaction. Perhaps the character saves a town/city/planet/whatever but depending on what trait one took, the character doesn't get the same recognition.
It would be a way to show how people can be blinded by the most stupid superficial aspect of a person, no matter what the person does and show how frustrating life can be when one is prone to marginalization/bigotry/whatever just because of accident of birth.
I don't think that would be pandering or political correctness at work if done right, rather just a reflection of how even as far as we've come as a society here, we still have a long road ahead.
On the flip-side, maybe being a bigot locks you out of helping a certain race/creed/whatever completely, or at least shows the character grudgingly helping said people but only enough to get what they want then leaves them high and dry, showing that even a hero can be a jackass. Also alter moral choices by characters personality, i.e. Mass Effect's paragon/renegade choices. Have those choices be different according to the character's traits as what a bigot would consider moral/immoral, a different archetype would find opposite (or not even see it as a binary choice).
their presence in any work of fiction does not need justification outside of fitting the stting, it does not need judgment aside from "have they totally fudged this up?" [i/]not from you of all demographics[/i]
[img/]http://i.imgur.com/5LasHJF.gif[/img] [footnote/]disclaimer: the use of the word "*****" in this context is not directed at any particual poster or meant to cause offence, its just the gif was perfect![/footnote]
yes I damn well said it and I'm sorry if it doesn't pander to some peoples self congratulatory "sit around the campfire and sing kumbya" version things but I am sooooo sick of the self appointed committee of what is and is not acceptable kicking a shit fit because they think THEY ONLY REASON PEOPLE WOULD INCLUDE FREAKS LIKE US IN THEIR ART IS BECAUSE SOMONE FORCED THEM
*deep breaths*....ok
[please ignore everything above this point]
Saetha said:
Here is a cookie. In fact have the whole jar. The self-appointed king of cookies, yours truly here, has decided to give you cookies for thy perfect post. Thy diction, Thy anger and Thy entire being shall fall at my feet and join me in the dark side, dispensing cookies to all who deserve it. And together we shall rule the interwebz with our cookies.
Yanno you're not the default of humanity either, you're not even the default of gay humanity, your post screams self loathing more than it screams at anyone else. Or you're just really thin skinned and super easily baited about your gender preference.
No self respecting gay man or woman has this much energy for fighting an argument they've already won. Most of us normal, respectful, intelligent individuals have been well past the whole "gay" thing for years. I had gay friends in high school and I'm 40 years old now...so its been almost 30 years since then.
Get down off the cross, we need the wood to burn the next social martyr. And seriously, get cool with yourself because this kind of reactivity communicates a serious lack of security with your life choices...and thats not me being mean, or a troll, or even trying to be hurtful...its a genuine statement of concern, this kind of pent up angst can lead to serious psychological problems...if you're not already dealing with them.
I love Dorian and I am a straight male. I think hes a fantastic character and well represented as a confident, self aware, intelligent, charming and funny gay man. Any straight man that can't say the same...probably isn't sure hes straight yet.
And whoever you are, person that I quoted, you may not be sure you're alright with being gay yet. Please get some help with that, cause who you are is just fine.
their presence in any work of fiction does not need justification outside of fitting the stting, it does not need judgment aside from "have they totally fudged this up?" [i/]not from you of all demographics[/i]
[img/]http://i.imgur.com/5LasHJF.gif[/img] [footnote/]disclaimer: the use of the word "*****" in this context is not directed at any particual poster or meant to cause offence, its just the gif was perfect![/footnote]
yes I damn well said it and I'm sorry if it doesn't pander to some peoples self congratulatory "sit around the campfire and sing kumbya" version things but I am sooooo sick of the self appointed committee of what is and is not acceptable kicking a shit fit because they think THEY ONLY REASON PEOPLE WOULD INCLUDE FREAKS LIKE US IN THEIR ART IS BECAUSE SOMONE FORCED THEM
*deep breaths*....ok
[please ignore everything above this point]
Saetha said:
Here is a cookie. In fact have the whole jar. The self-appointed king of cookies, yours truly here, has decided to give you cookies for thy perfect post. Thy diction, Thy anger and Thy entire being shall fall at my feet and join me in the dark side, dispensing cookies to all who deserve it. And together we shall rule the interwebz with our cookies.
Yanno you're not the default of humanity either, you're not even the default of gay humanity, your post screams self loathing more than it screams at anyone else. Or you're just really thin skinned and super easily baited about your gender preference.
No self respecting gay man or woman has this much energy for fighting an argument they've already won. Most of us normal, respectful, intelligent individuals have been well past the whole "gay" thing for years. I had gay friends in high school and I'm 40 years old now...so its been almost 30 years since then.
Get down off the cross, we need the wood to burn the next social martyr. And seriously, get cool with yourself because this kind of reactivity communicates a serious lack of security with your life choices...and thats not me being mean, or a troll, or even trying to be hurtful...its a genuine statement of concern, this kind of pent up angst can lead to serious psychological problems...if you're not already dealing with them.
I love Dorian and I am a straight male. I think hes a fantastic character and well represented as a confident, self aware, intelligent, charming and funny gay man. Any straight man that can't say the same...probably isn't sure hes straight yet.
And whoever you are, person that I quoted, you may not be sure you're alright with being gay yet. Please get some help with that, cause who you are is just fine.
Oh lol, I think you might have made pressed the wrong quote my young Jedi. If thou will not join me, than you shall be left without cookies. I demand that thou give me cookies, the King of Cookies and master of the darkside demands that thee pay him a tribute of 10 cookie jars and a candy bar. Preferably tomorrow. Or else I shall rain down the wrath of the interwebz upon thee.
Captcha: know your paradoxes. HMMM, seems captcha is a fun of Epica. Oh thee magnificent knave
Well I agree that the game should be more focused on the overall story and less on the token relationship mini-game you can pursue with your companions, if that's what you mean.
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