Bioware needs to revert years of work

00slash00

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But...Bioware makes RPGs with companions. They always have. It's kind of like saying point and click adventure games shouldn't have puzzles. Having a party that you get to know throughout the game is kind of a staple of Bioware games and since most Bioware games I've played have been good, I'd say the argument that party based RPGs don't work is a bit inaccurate. But if you don't like having a party, and Bioware has always had parties in their games, it stands to reason that you should avoid Bioware games. There are plenty of RPGs where you're just an overpowered death machine with no need for any companions. Just stick to those games
 

The Random Critic

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If you look at the black isle games from a pure combat perspective, yes they are indeed very simple. But that's not really where those game's strength lies. It's not really where a rpg's focus should lie.

As for the topic itself, as much as I enjoy the older Bioware games (BG and Dragon age, to be more specific), I believe letting Bioware find themselves a little will do them some good. (Something like incorporating my first statement)
 

Rayce Archer

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Well since we're obviously talking about the gay thing, I think it's mostly to cater to players. You need a gay dude for players who want to play as gay dudes, a lesbian for players who want to play lesbians, and hetero companions of both genders for players who are vanilla lonelysad. That's really the opposite of being PC, as it just extends the whole "characters who are sexual wish fulfillment for the gamer" into all new directions. I can see how, in that context, it could be a bit offensive to gay gamers to get "hey look, we put a virtual person in our game for you people to jack it to too!"

Of course the exception to this is Sky in Jade Empire, because Sky was a whiny little tool who wouldn't shut up about his dead family and any dude who'd stick with him would pretty much have to be doing it out of love. I think Sky was also a romance option for ladies too; I wouldn't know because I was basically a dick all the time to everyone but Chinese Professor Farnsworth.

Anyhow yeah, I find one of my chief problems with Bioware companions is that they're not usually very three-dimensional, yet their most defining characteristic is usually bitching at you about stuff. I was really sorry when I lost my "generic guard 1 and 2" companions in Dragon Age, because they didn't mouth off like that little sissy Alistair. Why YES, I did have to kill that guy, HE HAD A POTION I WANTED.

I think it's worse because in my experience, the mouthy jerkass companions are meant to compensate for the rather linear, limited-choices nature of bioware RPGs, which is kind of like them saying "sorry you can't just do what you want, here's a dude who will tell you what HE WANTS."

Bethesda can't write characters very well, and when they inflict companions on you it's usually awful, but I'll lone-wolf through an Oblivion or a Skyrim versus getting handheld by rude idiots through a Bioware game any day. If only there was a company that could do both HACK COUGH BLACKISLE COUGH WHEEZE damn I got something in my throat.
 

daibakuha

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It's so strange hearing people complain about companion romances in Bioware games after playing DAI, or complaining that they throw their sexuality in your face.

It's strange because DAI does both of those things right. Dorian and Sera will only make mention of of their sexualities when broached on the subject. You have to initiate it for them to even mention it. Dorian will mention it in his companion quest, but only because it ties directly into the relationship with his father.

On top of this, these romances are actually way better executed this time, instead of a one and done type deal, you actually start a relationship, which means it's not just sex and then the end of the game.

Honestly I've liked Bioware's direction since KOTOR, each game they've made has only gotten more enjoyable for me in terms of story and execution of that story. DAI feels like the first giant leap forward for them since ME1, and I hope the next mass effect is as good as DAI is.
 

Jitters Caffeine

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I guess all I want from the companion romance side quests are for the romance triggers to be a little more obvious. I remember playing DA:O a while back and just trying to be nice to all the companions. Then out of nowhere, Leliana starts congratulating me on my budding relationship with Zevran. It was very... Awkward, even if it was just a game.

I don't care that there are same-sex relationships in the game, but if you make EVERY character romancable by any race/gender, then it leads to some awkward situations when the dialogue triggers are unclear. Personally, I'd prefer characters that are explicitly gay or straight or whatever else.
 

maneyan

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Nods Respectfully Towards You said:
maneyan said:
Spoiler for Dragon Age Inquisition below
Krem in Dragon Age Inquisition is a good example. When I saw Krem I could only think "Oh I can't WAIT for the whine-fans beginning to shriek about "waah waah evil PC is tainting our gaaameees! [Transpeople] didn't exist back then!" Let me just say "Mulan". And that's not even the only example: among other there's a story in Sweden about how a woman dressed up as a man to join the army back in the 18th century.
If you want to get technical, those women weren't actually trans and more impersonating men so they could do something that they couldn't do as a woman. In the DA Universe, it seems that there's not a lot of restrictions for most women to serve on the front lines and be warriors and whatnot outside of the Chevaliers at one point but they're exclusionary as fuck outside of that anyways. Krem seems to genuinely identify as a man so it's kind of a different scenario.
Well not even then I would personally say. How do we know that none of the stories of "women dressing as men" were firstly actually real life events and secondly due to the woman in question actually feeling more comfortable as a man? Either way my point remains that the monolitic heterosexuality where transexuals do not exist is a false image of reality, a politically charged myth some people want to shove down others' mouths. The sooner we can accept this the better, because real people are being hurt by the ignorance on this topic. People whine about how evil political correctness is forcing games to change, ignorant of the fact that political conservatism has made actual RL situations, such as the existence of transpeople, taboo. But yes, it's probably not EXACTLY like it, but you can see if someone is a transvestite, a transsexual is a bit harder to spot so there's that.
 

Ladylotus

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Pr0 said:
People get assaulted on a daily basis for the contents of their wallets. I got beat down by a gang of 10 guys in Newport News, Virginia because I was white and they were not and I was dumb enough (at the time) to believe that cutting through a neighborhood would be safer than staying on the main avenue.

Bad shit happens to people all the time for a variety of reasons, being gay can be one of those reasons, but you act as if only gay people are assaulted for "being" something...and you're patently wrong.

Throwing down your special sunflower status by constantly pointing out that some apefaced brute thinks gay people are punching bags its an extreme lack of awareness of the reality of the world we live in outside of your "I'm gay" sphere of perception.
Nobody is saying only gay people are assaulted for being gay. Not one person in this thread has said that. People are assaulted for a variety of reasons, but being gay is a very influential reason for many.

You also ignored Silvanus' part about the number of LGBT teens disowned by religious parents. I AM one of those people. I got lucky, had friends who helped me out while I waited for my first college semester to start, but it still happened.

And there is no 'special sunflower' status being thrown around. A large number of LGBT people can be and often are assaulted or harassed on the basis of their sexual orientation alone. There are also gay people who are beaten up for the color of their skin alone. There are also gay people who are beaten up for their wallets alone. There are straight people who are beaten up for those latter 2 reasons as well. NOBODY is discrediting those who are beaten up for reasons that aren't being gay. We're bringing up the fact that equality has not in fact been reached for LGBT people. This is fact.

Saying 'Us too!' does nothing to help the argument, it only slows down the process of fixing things.
 

daibakuha

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Jitters Caffeine said:
I guess all I want from the companion romance side quests are for the romance triggers to be a little more obvious. I remember playing DA:O a while back and just trying to be nice to all the companions. Then out of nowhere, Leliana starts congratulating me on my budding relationship with Zevran. It was very... Awkward, even if it was just a game.

I don't care that there are same-sex relationships in the game, but if you make EVERY character romancable by any race/gender, then it leads to some awkward situations when the dialogue triggers are unclear. Personally, I'd prefer characters that are explicitly gay or straight or whatever else.
For the most part DAI does romances like this. There are two bisexual characters in the game and the rest are either gay or straight. On top of this you have to initiate the romances first, so they won't ambush you with it later.
 

AVATAR_RAGE

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My only beef with the most recent Bioware games (DA:I, not included because I have not played it), is the increased emphasis on romance while decreasing emphasis on character customisation. I have found this increasingly common in their games over the years, although I think they had a nice balance in DA:O.
 

chinangel

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Duster said:
tippy2k2 said:
...what?

Bioware has always done the companion thing. Them having companions in all their games isn't a new direction; it's the direction they've always been heading in.
Op was fairly clear on that

-Yeah the movement towards companions began long ago and some games, such as kotor 2 and BG2 have companions and are classics.
-but I feel when you make a game from the ground up around companions it doesn't work well, and that seems to be the approach these days.

They stated somewhat recently that their fans are clamoring for deeper companionship and so they oblige themselves, and I don't feel it's panning out well.

bluepotatosack said:
Is them including homosexual relationships the "need to be politically correct"? I'm kind of confused about that one.
Yes, considering politics in the last 5 years.
Oh no, gay characters, and most recently: an FTM transsexual.

It's called 'inclusion', people like to be recognized, and there is a rather large gay market. Pretending they don't exist is a bad idea, and assuming everyone wants to play a straight, white, grim-faced male is also a bad idea.

In all my bioware experiences, when the option presented itself i'd always make my gal gay (I always play as a girl, and non-human when i have the option)

To that end my Hero of Fereldan was a lesbian elf with a thing for redheads.
My Champion of Kirkwall was a female rogue who had a thing for elves and took Meril.
My inquisitor...well I like Iron Bull. But i'm pretty sure that my second one will also take the gay route.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with including gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered characters. It adds this thing called 'diversity', and I imagine it's only going to continue.

OH! and Commander Shepard loved Asari. She'd have her own Asari harem if the option presented itself.
 

EternallyBored

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Antigonius said:
Gundam GP01 said:
Fuck yeah it's positive. He's a gay protagonist of an adventure story. That like NEVER happens.
Well, I can agree (althou when I say "adventure story", I usually mean stuff like Mario or Indiana Jones - those guys are pretty much asexual).
But from the other PoV - If a writer wants to write a straight protagonist that's because they know how they work. They know clichés about piracy, they studied about pirate culture, know the prices of headhunting, etc. Maybe he doesn't know how to write gay people because he doesn't know any gay (for example - in my country homosexuality are compared to mental trauma and is usually shunned and they don't have any decent work) or they only gay he knows is from porn. What is the point to a such writer to write a gay person and will it be a good one? Doubt it.

From my experience if you push a writer to make certain stuff, the end result is rarely of any value
Are we talking about books now?

Because this is not how video game writing works, there is almost never a single writer on anything other than indie games, they don't generally come up with characters by themselves and you've got the order of the conversation reversed anyway. In a big budget game like a Bioware title, the plot and characters are hashed out in group meetings, and if a character is gay or straight it will be decided long before the writers are even hired on to hammer out the actual details of the character, in order for a group of writers to work well together, they generally already have a framework (decided by both the lead developers and publishers, before they start on the details).

Your example doesn't work because that is not how a writer and publisher generally interact in projects, in which I mean that the publisher and a general writer likely aren't going to talk to each other directly at all, if they do it will be with the development and project heads, not the writers, the publisher only talks directly to the writer when it comes to books, in video games, it's much closer to:

developer: "you've been hired on to write dialogue for some of the characters and side quests in the game, we've already got the story boards from the director and lead writer based on our pitch proposals, the character you are writing for is a bisexual pirate capable of being romanced by the player character, here's the briefs decided on by the creative teams, we'll bring you any changes and details as necessary, the first draft will be expected in the next 2 months".

In a large project, the story is often decided by the leads and publisher before a single writer ever puts pen to paper, and even then, they will make hundreds of changes anyway just within the writing team, or with the art department as situations change over the course of development, oftentimes the writer is commissioned merely to fill in the holes in a story that's already been decided.

That, and if a writer falls apart because one demand is being made of them, then they are in the wrong industry, video game writers are not hired to make shit up and have it critiqued by publishers. They are hired to work in a team and be flexible about their writing, a prima donna who throws a creative hissy fit anytime someone questions their work is better suited to writing books where they can maintain sole creative control, rather than a project like a major video game where they are working with 5-10 other writers, and are generally working from a framework that's been group written long before they ever even started.

A video game writer will likely have had their writing torn apart and reassembled dozens of times before they even make it out of the rough draft phase, this is how collaborative projects work, trying to frame it like the publisher actually comes in to make terrible demands as if that's somehow not a part of the normal creative group process shows a profound misunderstanding of the role most writers play in large projects like video games.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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I think it says more about the person when they assume a gay character was forced in against the writers' will based on no evidence than it does about the game.

I mean why do you assume it was forced? Are you searching for a reason to complaining about gay characters?
 

Duster

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I have the same bad habit as others by replying to some of the more controversial and silly posts and I can't touch on every post. I read some really good ones earlier, interesting discussion in general, thank you lot for you contributions.

Steve Waltz said:
Absolutely true. Romance in these games are 100% optional so why complain?
It costs the developers time and money that could be spent on other things.

Secondhand Revenant said:
I think it says more about the person when they assume a gay character was forced in against the writers' will based on no evidence than it does about the game.

I mean why do you assume it was forced? Are you searching for a reason to complaining about gay characters?
A single guy doesn't write the story. I'd assume you get your devs and marketers together to see what recent trends the company has the best ability to capitalize on, then they tell the writers to make a story about it.
 

daibakuha

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Duster said:
It costs the developers time and money that could be spent on other things.
This is nonsense. Romance options don't hurt the Bioware games on any front. There's still plenty of great story to go around without even touching the romance options.


Duster said:
A single guy doesn't write the story. I'd assume you get your devs and marketers together to see what recent trends the company has the best ability to capitalize on, then they tell the writers to make a story about it.
How would marketers capitalize on trends years before the games even come out? Dragon Age Inquisition was written years ago.