Bioware...*sigh*

[Super Toast]

I think BioWare is at the top of their game. DA2 did feel a bit rushed, though.

 

[Fozza]

Hmm. I'm kinda getting tired of all the complaints Bioware is recieving at the moment. I'm trying to be as neutral as possible all I actually want to say is that we all have a different point of view, different taste in games. So why does this discussion even exist? I loved all of Bioware's games from Neverwinter Nights to Dragon Age II. I had a hard time playing Baldur's Gate because I BELIEVED it boring and more time-consuming than fun, yet I do not complain because I fully understands those who liked the true RPG-moments of those games. Nuff said.

 

[Kortney]

I judge the changes made in DA2 taking into account the "spiritual successor" claim. You see, for example with ME2, I don't have any problem with them making a shooter, if that's what they set out to do. But Dragon Age was supposed to be back-to-the-roots or not? It's how they marketed the game in the first place.

To be honest, I believe Dragon Age: Origins will be the last "old style" RPG to be made by a mainstream developer in a while. I also believe that after its release, Bioware had every intention of changing it.

They DID decrease the scope of their games.

No they DIDn't. It depends what you mean by "scope". Part of the reason the "scope" has changed is technology. It would take ten years to make a game as intricate as Baldur's Gate with the mechanics of Mass Effect 2. It's easier to write an intricate novel than it is to create an intricate video game. One takes more time than the other. But, in some ways, the "scope" has become larger.

Did Baldur's Gate feature a "carry over" system where the choices you made in the first game effect the world in the sequels, in both subtle and non-subtle ways? Nope.

Did Baldur's Gate offer a completely voiced cast, with a reactive response wheel that makes even conversation extremely exciting? Nope.

Did Baldur's Gate offer reactive, fun and solid combat mechanics? Nope.

Did Baldur's Gate feature as detailed environments and graphics? Nope.

You see where I'm going here... Surely these things count as part of the "scope"?

Look, to most people, Baldur's Gate would be simply unplayable. You can't expect Bioware to cling onto something that you like but most people don't.

Also, the combat systems have been more and more pushed to become more like action games. Compare KotoR's combat system with Jade Empire's, or even DA:O with DA2. The trend is visible. If that's a good thing is matter of opinion, I agree
with you there.

Yep, and most gamers prefer the "action game" combat system.

I happen to prefer the old more tactical style of combat system.

Well then you have dated tastes and shouldn't expect developers to cater to you. It's sad, but it's true.

What I point out is that their games have been losing in complexity.

Define "complexity". These honestly just sound like weasel words to me. Care to give some examples?

I said earlier that I'm not rooting for countless remakes of Baldur's Gate or something. I am for change. But I feel their focus on WHAT to change is not bringing the RPG genre forward.

With all respect to you, and you do seem like a thoughtful and intelligent person, what you think is irrelevant compared to Bioware think. As one Escapist has already said - these guys have been making RPGS since you were 7 (or 8). They do know more about the industry than you do - and they do know more about how to move their genre forward than you do.

My vision for that is also in the discussion. There's a lot more potential to RPGs, and I'm unhappy that Bioware, one of the few real RPG companies isn't striving to push the envelope in that direction. If that's profitable or not, I don't know. Apparently it isn't. Which saddens me.

Can you give some examples of how you think the industry should move forward? You seem to be against making combat faster paced and action orientated. Why? How does this destroy a role playing game? If anything - it makes it more entertaining. But maybe you aren't against that. Give me some examples

 

[fnartilter]

They created a formula that works, for now, and I like it a lot.

 

[Knusper]

I loved KotoR and Baldur's Gate, for some reason they weren't on the list of games by Bioware. Still voted for them, though.

 

[CreepyStalker]

Bioware's awesome. They have made some of my favorite games ever and I don't hesitate to say that I would gladly play almost any Bioware game as they always have amazing storylines, characters and plots, for me I've never played a perfect Bioware game but everyone I've played I've sat up till 3am with just because I want to know what comes next (thats a good game to me).


PS. Dragonage + NWN (1 and 2) are awesome.

 

[joshthor]

i started with bioware games with KotOR, and have played all of thier games since then (except jade empire). bioware makes amazing games. i will continue to support them, because they are the ONLY great RPG developer (in my opinion). sure, bethesda makes good games, cd projekt did good on the witcher, and there are many other rpg developers that i cant list off, but bioware always manages to make something epic, with an incredibly engaging story and brilliant characters. i have not played a game from any other developer who does this as good as bioware.

...yes... im a fan boy. im not a ignorant one though, and i dont fight for them blindly. dragon age 2 was not thier best game. it was as far as i can tell, thier worst game (minus jade empire... but i never gave that much of a chance). but the worst diamond in a jewelry shop is still a diamond. its a pretty darn good game, and it doesnt deserve the shit its getting.

lastly, while i dont agree with what EA and bioware did i have a couple of questions: why the hell would you complain and ***** about thier games on thier forums!? its like going up to a crocodiles lair (they have lairs right?) and yelling at them about how dinosaurs were way cooler than crocodiles.... i lied... i only had one question...

oh well...

 

[Aesir23]

Jesus, you would think Bioware kicked everyone's puppies with the way people are going on about this.

I like them and I have no complaints about them (not that I'm saying that no one is allowed to complain, this is just my opinion). I loved Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Neverwinter Nights 2 and their other older games as well but I also like their new games. The Dragon Age and Mass Effect games are my favourites in my selection of 360 games. I love the controls, gameplay, graphics, etc. Yet, what I love most are the stories and the characters, that's what has me going back to BioWare again and again.

While everyone is perfectly entitled to their opinion, you'd think they made Halo or Modern Warfare 2 with all the bashing that seems to be directed towards them lately on this forum.

 

[Telemachus]

you also have to consider that action sells, and Bioware needs to make money like the rest of us. So they are almost forced to 'actionify' their games more. But i still love bioware games. Still think they're the best developer to date right now.

 

[Gunner 51]

For fuck's sake.

You prefer the game they made twelve years ago? Then go play the game they made twleve years ago and stop bitching about it.

I think that the priorities of Bioware are misplaced and they just fail to focus on what's really important to making good RPGs.

Hey, here's an outlandish idea: Why don't you create a studio and make your own games if you're not happy with theirs? Seriously, Bioware has been making games since you were seven years old. Who do you think you are trying to teach them "what's really important to making good RPGs"?!

Phew... it's good to let the anger out once in a while. Thanks for that, buddy.

Your quote put a smile upon my face. I see a lot of people bitching about Bioware like a bunch of spoilt prima-donnas, yet - they have no reason to do so.

If they bothered to play the demo, they already knew what the game was going to be like. All the superfluous mechanics taken out to improve graphics, frame rate and cram in a touch more characterisation and story.

If the game truly bugged the moaners that much, they have three options open to them

1.) Play a better game. (They all seem to love KOTOR)
2.) Make their own - albeit a pen and paper RPG.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

correcct me if im wrong, but i swear new people that were hired by bioweare were making da2 for the most part, if not then i am wrong but i thought a semi different team was making it, yes they are part of bioware but that doesn't mean they have the same goals or anything, which yes that is semi heartbreaking/gamebreaking hwen teams don't have the same goals, but overall i do enjoy their most recent of games and i do think they are still semi strong, but i wiouldn't put it past the, even as a bioware semi fanboy, as for them to turn more towards the cod crowd more than anything, if i was a business man i would go where the money is, and with being how stingy and whatnot the elitist crowd is, that is nowhere near where the money is. so yeah, i can't really blame most companies that face that direction they are heading for.

 

[seditary]

I had the biggest laugh I've had in years when you mentioned Ultima 7, if that game was made today by Bioware it'd be the most expensive entertainment product development in history and take over a decade to make. Your understanding of the work required to create such products is almost insulting and if they actually did what you wanted they'd be out of business.

It wouldn't be if they just stopped putting all their capacities into making everything cinematic and with super HD graphics. But that wouldn't be profitable would it. There's a trade-off. Would you prefer advanced AI for NPCs so that they have complex underlying social systems, or would you want more shiny graphics? Because making all these graphic assets (models etc) costs a lot of development time, and therefore money.

I laughed even more with all the complaints DA2 has been getting about lackluster graphics. To actually answer your question, I'd prefer they keep doing what they are doing since I like to play games I enjoy, not pine after a potential game that would ruin the company that makes games I enjoy.

Don't despair too much though, graphical fidelity is finally starting to slowly plateau out and development will turn to tools to improve creation and underlying game systems.

 

[Ghengis John]

Yet another pretentious snob on the internet. Ho HUM.

I'm sighing at the number of people who are disappointed that the world turns independently of whether they want it to or not. You got BG1, BG2, their expansions, NWN, NWN2, their expansions. Those were all very similar games. You couldn't expect them to keep making the same kind of games forever could you? Even Ford no longer produces the Model T.

 

[jackpipsam]

EA can be blamed for many things... this is not one of them

 

[Trolldor]

Do me a favour..

Go back and play Baldurs Gate, KotOR and the original Neverwinter Nights.

Everyone fantasizes about things they played when they were younger and turns them into monolithic epic things which can never be superceded, but in my experience that's generally because were more easily impressed, not because the games were better.

In fact, go back and play a fighter in the original Baldur's Gate. Note how deep and tactical the combat is, certainly nothing like the action RPGs of today where you have to select abilities and click more than once in an entire fight.

A fighter is the tank class. Go back and play a Druid/Cleric or mage, or maybe a melee rogue built around backstab.

Edit: Fucking oath... priest class... there is no priest class you nonce.

 

[Trolldor]

For fuck's sake.

You prefer the game they made twelve years ago? Then go play the game they made twleve years ago and stop bitching about it.

I think that the priorities of Bioware are misplaced and they just fail to focus on what's really important to making good RPGs.

Hey, here's an outlandish idea: Why don't you create a studio and make your own games if you're not happy with theirs? Seriously, Bioware has been making games since you were seven years old. Who do you think you are trying to teach them "what's really important to making good RPGs"?!

Phew... it's good to let the anger out once in a while. Thanks for that, buddy.

Your quote put a smile upon my face. I see a lot of people bitching about Bioware like a bunch of spoilt prima-donnas, yet - they have no reason to do so.

If they bothered to play the demo, they already knew what the game was going to be like. All the superfluous mechanics taken out to improve graphics, frame rate and cram in a touch more characterisation and story.

If the game truly bugged the moaners that much, they have three options open to them

1.) Play a better game. (They all seem to love KOTOR)
2.) Make their own - albeit a pen and paper RPG.

Less characterisation. Less Story.

 

[ShakyFiend]

Jesus another goddamn nostalgia things-were-so-much-better-in-the-old-days thread, please be sensible DA was a great game (and thats coming from someone who dosent even like it) and as far as I can tell DA:O is only getting so much hate because of the comparisons with the original. As usual in these situations most people admit that, if viewed objectively, it dosent look half as bad.

 

[beniki]

To be fair, a lot of it is just people not wanting to learn new stuff. I remember people complaining about Mass Effect 2 and it's lack of inventory. And then when people tried it, it really worked well.

RPGs are changing. Games as we know them, are changing. As much as we hold the THACO numbers close to our hearts, they were needlessly complicated. I loved the d20 system. I really did. And copying DnD is still one of the best ways to give players a lot of choice in character creation.

But where it falls down is that Bioware can't be everyone's GM. The story can't be tailored to allow for the fact you went rogue instead of paladin. Neverwinter Nights 2 is a great example of this. The third act makes the concept of a combat rogue nearly useless, since most of the mobs are undead, and immune to criticals, and thus back stabs.

I don't consider the new generation of Bioware games to be 'dumbed down' at all. They're trying new things, with lots of clever innovations. And God forbid they make a game that isn't based on paper, pencil and imagination graphics card.

The plain truth is that 'classic' Bioware games are very much still available. Just head down to your book store. And put on your robe and wizard hat...

 

[infinity_turtles]

Gotta say I'm one of those people disappointed with the way Bioware's been doing things for awhile. Sort of expected though. What a lot of the newer fans who like this aren't getting though, is that Bioware has been good at establishing brand loyalty in it's target audience, but they've changed their target audience. That's always going to lead to resentment, and that's even more pronounced here since Bioware was the only AAA developer catering to their previous audience. Older games and indie games are the only things left that properly scratch my gaming itch anymore, since my favorite sorts of games just aren't being made.

I don't hate Bioware for the changes they've made or anything, but I'm certainly not happy when I hear about them.

 

[IceStar100]

I've learned the only RPG's are dead everything a hybred now aday better or worst. I will say I am dispointed in them for putting out a rushed job and giving in to pressure.