Bioware...*sigh*

[TikiShades]

You guys think Baulder's Gate was great? Try remembering Pong. Top-notch gameplay, thrilling musical score, immersive story... I mean, the characters felt so real, it was like I knew them personally; like they were sitting right next to me or something.[/nostalgia] ;3

On a less sarcastic note, what's wrong with finding the common denominator? They want as many people to enjoy the game as they can. Sure, chest-high walls and a basic RPG-element system are upsetting, but it's what more people want. Even if there's a lot of people who are more of a simplefolk who don't like to deeply-consider their characters and team on the other side of the argument, catering to us would mean a bigger loss of profit. And while you can say they're money-grubbing pigs, money is actually a necessity to making more of the games. Go figure, right?

Two of my biggest RPG-playing friends are actually more on their side of the argument. They'd continually get annoyed at me when we'd play Tales of Symphonia because I'd obsess on optimizing the party. I'd never have the required character in the party before the boss battle simply because by not doing so, the menu would open so I could change my team with the required character. By opening the menu, however, I could rearrange my equipment and Ex-Gems and stuff. I also did the same thing when we reached a new vendor with equipment; making sure to ration my money.

My friends, however, didn't seem to see the logic in optimizing the party. They just wanted to get back to playing. They didn't feel like going through all of the tactical thinking. And I know that I'm kind of alone on that issue with my friends; I'm the only one who tends to overanalyze.

I've never played Bauldur's Gate, but it sounds like there's a bit of analysis to do. Menu-diving isn't something that people want to do. Anything more than 4 levels of a skill is excessive. Sure, they might be angering their fans, but it's also intimidating to the non-fans who might have been interested if it weren't so complicated. Heck, I haven't touched Civilization since 3, because after seeing the gigantic poster for the sciences in the Civ 4 box, with a whole new list of terms and keywords, I don't feel like learning a whole new system for a game that might not end up appealing me. I would have wasted my time.

Those are my thoughts on the subject.

 

[SageRuffin]

correcct me if im wrong, but i swear new people that were hired by bioweare were making da2 for the most part, if not then i am wrong but i thought a semi different team was making it, yes they are part of bioware but that doesn't mean they have the same goals or anything, which yes that is semi heartbreaking/gamebreaking hwen teams don't have the same goals, but overall i do enjoy their most recent of games and i do think they are still semi strong, but i wiouldn't put it past the, even as a bioware semi fanboy, as for them to turn more towards the cod crowd more than anything, if i was a business man i would go where the money is, and with being how stingy and whatnot the elitist crowd is, that is nowhere near where the money is. so yeah, i can't really blame most companies that face that direction they are heading for.

I'm not 100% on this, but I think the same team who worked on ME2 also did the core development of DA2.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Imagine procedurally generated quests and entire game worlds.

I think Bethesda are going towards this with part of the quest system in Skyrim. There are the proper story quests and side quests but it also literally creates quests for you and checks where you have been before and sends you to a new place if it can result: neverending game lol

I'm kind of tired of the Dragon Age 2 hate its a slighlty above average game I keep feeling that it doesnt really deserve the attention although negative. It feels like a completely different type of game to origins maybe thats just me.

You guys think Baulder's Gate was great? Try remembering Pong. Top-notch gameplay, thrilling musical score, immersive story... I mean, the characters felt so real, it was like I knew them personally; like they were sitting right next to me or something.[/nostalgia] ;3

Baldur's Gate is an awesome game. I would play it over Dragon Age 2 anyday. I still have it on my pc so nostalgia doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

[Shadowfaze]

Bioware do seem to be deviating more to 'action rpg' than the classic style we know and love, but i really enjoyed ME2, and after getting used to fighting changes in DA2 (I replayed DAO to have an importable save, plus to get the platinum trophy) im thoroughly enjoying it so far.

 

[CleverCover]

Everyone knows LucasArts forced them to put out an unfinished game around when Episode Two game out to maximize profit. Obsidian makes buggy games, I don't argue that, but KoTOR2's bugs are more on LucasArts than them. The PC version has a Restoration Patch that includes most of the content that was cut out to meet the time demands.

Personally I enjoyed the game even without it, but I also don't see bugs as deal breakers. If I did I'd miss out on plenty of excellent games, for example the entire Bethesda catalog.

I have no idea what you mean by nine different people in ME2, I assume you're referring to the different squaddies? The characters in Mass Effect don't have half the depth as any of the main characters in KoTOR2, and the story in Mass Effect 2 is largely nonexistent.

I'm not going to get into a huge, nitpicky debate over it though. If it's not your thing, I'm not going to be able to change your mind. For me though, Obsidian are the only major developers still making excellent RPGs without dumbing them down to appeal to the mass market, and it's a damn shame they don't get more recognition.

Well, I meant you could have at least nine different Sheps, since I like to make up new stories for them and base their decisions in game on that. It actually does get confusing with all those people in their making up rules. Like My Spacer WarHero deleted the files on the Alliance Kasumi had while my Colonial Sole Survivor kept it.

Well, here's to being able to agree to disagree. I will swear up and down ME's characters were more interesting than KotOR2's until the cows come home, but I'm too lazy and I don't think either of us will care two days from now.

I do wonder about the OP's thoughts on the constant "do this and you get this in game" thing Bioware was pulling though....maybe that's where this distrust truly started.

 

[Togs]

The only thing wrong with DA2 was how rushed it was- in places its like what ME2 would of been if more of the RPG element had been kept (i.e. close to the best game ever) but most of time it falls flat on its face- that ending feels like it was cobbled together in less then a week.

Also I was genuinely shocked by how bad the writing is in places, especially with the character of Merrill who has such a critical lack of verisimillitude.

 

[Marowit]

Everything was better when everything was worse.

*adjusts coke-bottle glasses*

That's all I read when I hear people complaining about games being worse now. Nostalgia does wonders fogging our points of view - this is the precise reason I don't go back and replay games I loved back in the day. I did that once when I stumbled across my N64, I was a saad panda.

So, while I certainly have some gripes with the new BioWare games, I am sure that if I were playing them side-by-side with their older RPGs as a 14-17 year old I'd love 'em just as much as I did the others.

 

[Warachia]

In another thread I read that people bitched about DA:O's old school combat approach, so logically they had to make the combat more action oriented. And people still *****, even more so. It's not that gamers are whiny primadonnas that can't be pleased. No, this is Bioware's fault 100%. To me, this is another sign that Bioware is losing its edge. Since when is Bioware so headless and submissive to just simply throw in features that players call for without taking a step back to see if the changes work for the game, and contribute to reaching the vision for it?
Because that's, you know, the JOB of a game designer.

I want to clarify something, they changed the combat because they didn't want to remake the same game with a different story. That used to be called innovation, now it's submission? Should we ***** at ultima 7 for doing the same thing?

I know you made an edit but you ignored this issue.

 

[Nallemon]

I really have hard time understanding players who just keep complaining that Bioware sucks because they do what the majority likes... seriously. They don't make these games for the few that want every game to be Baldurs Gate of Planescape, they make these a) for money. It is business after all. b)For the loud majority who want these games to be like these. A company that actually listens to it's fans is quite rare.

 

[Weofparadigm]

It is an rpg, but stripped down to the barest elements. It's certainly not a deep RPG, its much more of an action game

 

[Silent Biohazard Solid]

Five years is a long time in the gaming world. That's about a standard console's lifespan, unless the new model of 30 years takes over.

I also never said game franchises don't have their apologists, but SQUENIX has been taking crap for years, and its overall popularity has been on a steady decline. Even the FF series itse;f has seen a drop since 9 or 10 or so. I'd personally like to think 9, since that title was so godawful it still ranks among five or so PS2 titles I bought and never finished, but that's personal preference.

Final Fantasy will probably still have some of the most rabid defenders on earth even ten years after the series is dead and buried. But it's still not quite sacred. Nto anymore, and not for a long time now. Dirge of Cerebrus (also five years old), as you also mention, caught a lot of crap. Still had its defenders, but that's not the same as being held up in borderline idolatry. Even "user" reviews put the game in a pretty poor position.

First of all, some of that is wrong. FF9 was on PS1. So... I'm gonna assume you meant FF10? The one with Tidus?

Second, I still don't see what your point is. Are you saying it's a GOOD thing that Bioware is "sacred"? Or are you saying that people should stop giving it special treatment?

I mean, I can't agree or disagree with you, because I don't know what you're trying to say.

 

[Fappy]

I can't fathom why people are still freaking out over this. Like people, game developers change over time. Bioware's games have a certain formula to them but no single game (even in the same franchise) is exactly like its predecessor. While I agree DA2 was rushed and suffered from some debilitating problems, its completely asinine to damn the developer for screwing up. They have proven their abilities in the past and they were bound to make a mistake eventually. No developer is perfect.

 

[Misho-]

I just want to add... Gamers ARE prima Donnas... You can never please anyone completely/all of the time... Even less so to a whole community. Not saying that the gamer's expectations are wrong... Just unreal...

Also people tend to flame companies en masse based on just small information or rumours... I see that you edited your post. But you yourself admitted not researching the story properly... So It's ok I guess...

People wanted old school RPGs ala Baldur, hence Dragon Age Origins (since no D&D license) and the fact that Bioware isn't coworking with Atari anymore and Atari are the current holders of the D&D license...

Nice new IP (I know about the previous novels) but people wanted "better" combat (never had an issue with the DA:O combat myself, played it on both PC and PS3) hence Dragon Age 2 combat.

Now people are unhappy... But the thing is... They will be forever unhappy... Impossible to please one person completely/all of the time... Same goes tenfold for thousands of consumers...

 

[Legion]

Do me a favour..

Go back and play Baldurs Gate, KotOR and the original Neverwinter Nights.

Everyone fantasizes about things they played when they were younger and turns them into monolithic epic things which can never be superceded, but in my experience that's generally because were more easily impressed, not because the games were better.

In fact, go back and play a fighter in the original Baldur's Gate. Note how deep and tactical the combat is, certainly nothing like the action RPGs of today where you have to select abilities and click more than once in an entire fight.

Indeed. I loved KOTOR when I played it but I bet if I tried going back now and playing it again it'd annoy the hell out of me.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Also I was genuinely shocked by how bad the writing is in places, especially with the character of Merrill who has such a critical lack of verisimillitude.

She's an interesting case. I haven't got too far into the game yet, but while her story is intriguing, sometimes it just feels like they found a voice actor with a (fairly soft) Welsh accent and let that accent write the character. She seems to spend a lot of time just being a naive, soft-hearted comedy Welsh girl stereotype, which might be a new and lovable thing for North Americans but for me feels slightly on the tail end of good taste.

Also, most of Isabella's lines make me feel like I need a shower.[footnote]Along with the nagging and slightly immersion breaking realization that she clearly didn't dress herself. Seriously, if you want to show off your female characters' tits while remaining convincing, throw in an opportunity for them to naturally wear less or be naked at some point in the story, don't try and pretend someone with a glamour model physique would honestly enjoy wearing clothes which look like they were tailored by someone who normally works in PVC. Meh, it's a pet peeve..[/footnote]

Even here though, I can't help but blame my expectations. Maybe I only notice because some of the dialogue is really good.. there's a bit in the first act where Carver says 'have we ever met a Templar who isn't a colossal prick?' which made me burst out laughing. Sure, not exactly Shakespearian but it felt like natural dialogue, it's the kind of thing I would come out with in the context.

Spoiler

He's also the only 'major' male character I'm ever aware of seeing in a video game who has a fairly convincing reaction to the realization that he's going to die. i.e. shocked regret as opposed to noble posturing or detached gallows humour.

Also, because I just did it recently, the quest with the Saarebas is golden writing. It's not even a moral choice as such, and yet I thought more about the dialogue in that 10 minute side quest than I did about the Geth decision in ME2 which everyone always goes on about. For me, it was a very poignant little story..

Spoiler

..and the fact that despite the illusion of choice you couldn't effect the outcome, that the Saarebas would kill himself regardless of what you said, only made it more so. It's good to be reminded that even as the protagonist your ability to change the world around you is limited.

 

[Togs]

snip

Yeah it can get vey disconcerting- most of the time the writing is normal bioware standard (i.e. off the charts) but there are times when its so bad its jarring, I wont spoil it but Merrills companion quests are terrible- she acts in a manner no sentient being would, which is strange as the rest of them act ways so believable its uncanny.

[sub] Oh and you dont have to be American to find Merrill (for the most part) adorable, but then I guess I have a weakness for accents....[/sub]

 

[Digitaldreamer7]

I think the combat in DA2 is terrible, clunky, and poorly executed. I didn't care really care for the first Dragon Age.

 

[Manji187]

Don't worry about Bioware...they won't be around forever. In time they will be replaced with fresh blood. But by that time there's a chance you won't be into gaming anymore.

 

[Continuity]

Bioware is moving RPGs forward, just not in the direction I and many others like. You could say they're getting mainstream, it's no news actually. But it really sucks for their old audience who were looking forward to a future that didn't arrive.

Well this sums up the situation, Bioware et al have taken RPG into the mainstream but to do that they've butchered their previous design ethic and replaced that with action. To some people this is a revelation, to others its a travesty, but either way there is no point railing against change.. change in the games industry is driven by one thing: $$$ and so long as the majority want simplified action/RPG that is exactly what we will be served up.

Do I regret the future that didn't arrive? yeah damn straight, but you know what? there are other games companies. Bioware has gone from being one of my favourites to one of the companies that I think twice and three times about buying a game they've produced because I know i'll be disappointed. roll on the indie devs.

Don't worry about Bioware...they won't be around forever. In time they will be replaced with fresh blood. But by that time there's a chance you won't be into gaming anymore.

There will come such a time, but at that time I wont have a pulse. Remember kids: Gaming is for life, not just for childhood ^^

 

[Continuity]

When does Baldur's Gate get so great anyways? I'm a few hours in (I had this game when it came out, didn't get past the first 30 minutes) and sure an Inn Keeper said his place was cleaner than an Elfs ass, and I chuckled.... but when does this great stuff happen?

I believe with the Tutu mod it's 150 hours or so, does it drastically change at some point?

Its great from the very first second you load up the game... Just throw away your preconceptions and expectations and have patience, enjoy the journey and don't worry about the destination, become immersed in the story and gameplay... Roleplay your character if you will.

(if you want an easy ride I strongly suggest you either go with a fighter or thief for BG1, especially the premade thief character who has better than normal starting stats. Also a big tip is this: its absolutely vital to get good stats to start with and to allocate the points the the right things for your character type, otherwise you could be shooting your character in the knees before you even start)

Plus of course it really really helps if you're an AD&D fan to start with, otherwise you're going to find it triple-bastard hard.

And once again I say have patience, you can't judge a book by the first page of the introduction... just read the fucking book.