Bioware...*sigh*
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Planescape is excellent. Somewhat lacking in the gameplay department, but still not terrible, and the best story I've ever seen in a game, by a long shot. I suggest you try that first (or last, if you don't want the plot of the rest to pale in comparison).Sober Thal said:
IWD is pure hack and slash. Sometimes it pretends to have a plot, which just makes it sadder. Still, if you like hack and slash, it fits the bill quite well.
NWN is newer, and 3rd edition. The original has a fairly terrible campaign, or at least, mediocre. One expansion is okay, and another, Hordes of the Underdark, is really quite good. NWN2 follows the same pattern - terrible OC, mediocre expansion (Storm of Zehir) and excellent expansion (mask of the betrayer). NWN2 has some classic Obsidian bugginess added, mind.
Anyway, I hope that helped.
I wouldn't worry, you're not alone..Togs said:
My point is not that the accent isn't lovely, more that it kind of feels like a stereotype for Welsh people to be bumbling, inoffensive, self-conscious and naive. Kind of like making black characters incredibly physical, direct and aggressive.. it's not quite racism, it's just a little uncomfortable.
She still strikes me as the best female romance option though, simply because Isabella's attitude to sex makes no sense. I meet sexually liberated 'promiscuous' women quite frequently, both through my course and poly/bisexual circles. Isabella acts more like a nominally female version of Zevran than anything else.. except I liked Zevran.
That said, I really like what they did with Anders (lets face it, he was just a bad comedy character in Awakening), Fenris has good moments (though his accent turns me right off) and the siblings have been great so far. Sebastian Vael also seems cool, although I've only just got him to join the party. So I guess the guys are winning my favour at the moment, go team meat!
I guess when they got a partnership with EA, they stopped specifically making games for yo and started making them for themselves or some other kid. They're sorry you don't enjoy their games anymore, they didn't realize you didn't want those changes but it's too late to change what's already out, so they said they'd dedicate the next Dragon Age to you.
OP, I agree that Bioware pissed away their chance at making Dragon Age 2 truly epic. It's a shame because people are only pissed and disillusioned because they hold them to such high standards. Oh well, even the greats must fall at some point.
On the positive side we have Skyrim, Witcher 2 and Kingdoms of Amalur to look forward to. Also Dungeon Siege 3, Diablo 3 and others. I'm sure that at least one of them will be more epic, delivering a world that is solid.
I know for a fact that Witcher 2 does not let enemies scale to your level. THANK YOU CD PROJEKT! Probably won't see waves of them either. Nor will loot become useless as you level up. Ah yes, good times ahead.
On the positive side we have Skyrim, Witcher 2 and Kingdoms of Amalur to look forward to. Also Dungeon Siege 3, Diablo 3 and others. I'm sure that at least one of them will be more epic, delivering a world that is solid.
I know for a fact that Witcher 2 does not let enemies scale to your level. THANK YOU CD PROJEKT! Probably won't see waves of them either. Nor will loot become useless as you level up. Ah yes, good times ahead.
Aside from putting Dragon Age over Oblivion (at least you didn't say Morrowind, then I'd have to punch you through the internet) I agree with everything you say.Silent Biohazard Solid said:
I can't believe that people haven't noticed Bioware doing this since Jade Empire. And I'm just going to put out there that that game is probably my favourite Bioware title.
I have a place in my heart for KotOR, sure, and it's pretty much their magnum opus. And while I did love Origins, do we really need another Diablo clone? I personally find Blizzard games unplayable, so I don't want one of my favourite devs heading in that direction.
And besides, Bioware have developed their own unique feel now. I love it to bits.
Well, when I say I liked Dragon Age Origins better than Oblivion, I don't mean in terms of sheer combat mechanics. No, I mean the storyline, the characters, the graphics. Even though the graphics of Dragon Age Origins were nothing to brag about, at least the faces on the people didn't look outright ugly. That was one of my big problems with Oblivion. But that's a different discussion entirely. Yeah, as fat as sheer combat goes, I'll take a 3rd person hack and slash action RPG (like Oblivion, assuming you're playing in 3rd person) over a point and click Diablo clone.Lord Krunk said:
Pah! You never play Bethesda games for the main questSilent Biohazard Solid said:
But seriously, I agree that I loved the world's lore and plot a lot better in Ferelden than I did Tamriel, but vice-versa in terms of exploration and discovery. Speaking of exploration, I can't wait for Skyrim.
I do agree that the faces are a lot better in Dragon Age though, even if some of the voice acting seems... off.
Don't get me wrong, I love Dragon Age: Origins. But if I had to choose between it and Oblivion I'd probably choose the latter.
If you make the game old-school, new people get pissed. If you make it new, old-school people get pissed.
I think I just got the excuse to opt out of night time reading.
OT: Well, the first RPG I played from them was Mass Effect, and I rather enjoyed that game. Ever since then, it fell straight down hill. But in terms of how good a company is, they are still one of the top dogs.
OT: Well, the first RPG I played from them was Mass Effect, and I rather enjoyed that game. Ever since then, it fell straight down hill. But in terms of how good a company is, they are still one of the top dogs.
But I still play it for the character interactions. Heck, more often than not, in a Bethesda game, I try to beat as much of it as I can through speech checks and diplomacy, rather than by plowing through all the enemies like a tank. Unless it's just a random dungeon, then yes, there will be blood.Lord Krunk said:Pah! You never play Bethesda games for the main quest
So point is, overall, I enjoyed DAO better in terms of character interaction and decision making.
What I did like in Oblivion was... Well, oblivion. A hellish alternate dimension... Something I love very much.
I think Bioware hasn't lost its edge. Just because they are moving on to more gameplay ideas doesn't mean they're evil or something. I enjoy both Mass Effect and Dragon Age. I beat all the games in both series and thoroughly enjoyed them for what they were. I also enjoyed the KOTOR series, Jade Empire, and the older games like Neverwinter Nights. I'm just finding it hard to see the problem here.
Dragon Age 2 is severely underrated in my opinion, because I felt like they expanded upon the story a lot better than Origins. Origins had an epic storyline, but it wasn't delivered very well. Dragon Age 2 started out very strong, and had some incredibly likable characters that felt very real and avoided the usual stereotypes Bioware uses.
But yeah, as I've read in this thread, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so we shouldn't be bickering with ourselves over Bioware's products. Bioware is moving away from their old school roots, and that's up to their fans to like or not. I seriously don't mind it, as I like seeing new things. Dragon Age 2 may have freaked everyone out for how different it was compared to their other games, but I feel Bioware will grow from it, whether it be a mistake or not, and continue to release better and enjoyable games like always.
I have faith in Bioware still. I don't think they deserve the flak.
Dragon Age 2 is severely underrated in my opinion, because I felt like they expanded upon the story a lot better than Origins. Origins had an epic storyline, but it wasn't delivered very well. Dragon Age 2 started out very strong, and had some incredibly likable characters that felt very real and avoided the usual stereotypes Bioware uses.
But yeah, as I've read in this thread, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so we shouldn't be bickering with ourselves over Bioware's products. Bioware is moving away from their old school roots, and that's up to their fans to like or not. I seriously don't mind it, as I like seeing new things. Dragon Age 2 may have freaked everyone out for how different it was compared to their other games, but I feel Bioware will grow from it, whether it be a mistake or not, and continue to release better and enjoyable games like always.
I have faith in Bioware still. I don't think they deserve the flak.
They all have their good parts. NWN is 3rd edition, at least one expansion is actually good, and probably strikes the best balance of the lot.Sober Thal said:
IWD is pure hack and slash, as is the sequel. I think it's also the best of the three for combat, but I really don't know, kinda dropped the game. I like it least, for what it's worth.
Planescape has somewhat iffy combat (but honestly, it's never great for these games) and a few issues. For instance, you want maxed wisdom and a class change to mage ASAP. Seriously, that's not a suggestion, it's a way to avoid missing out on half the plot.
That said, it has the best plot/characters ever. Or possibly the bestest, I'm not entirely sure.
Basically, it's a matter of what you want emphasis on. Plot? Planescape. Gameplay? IWD. A balance? NWN, ideally the later games (but play them in order for a better idea of what's going on).
Planescape does get a slight boost in the gameplay department, mind, in that there is a dialogue-based solution to almost everything in the game, final boss included. In fact, it's often the best solution of them all.
Anyway, rambling over. Hope that helped a little. Any further discussion might be best kept to PMs, though.
Edit: A possible downside to Planescape is that it'll spoil you. Even decent stories might pale in comparison, at least for a little while, if you play it first. Also, lots of text. Apparently some people hate that.
Personally I found it funny how the ending of DA2 presented perfectly where Bioware came short with the game.
For me the greatest let down in DA2 was... the combat. I'm perfectly aware that the game was aimed primarily at the consoles which demands certain simplifications and I can live with that. In fact I don't mind at all the fast paced combat but the speed is one thing and the difficulty is the other.
During the load screens you are constantly reminded that you can pause the game to adjust your party tactics and that you should always place your party members "tactically", warriors at choke points at what not. The whole time I played my only question was "sure, but why?". I usually play a rogue which may be a part of the problem (overpowered and what will you) but still I couldn't find one fight through out the whole game that would require something more than just "rush 'em and slash 'em" approach. Though I will admit that towards the end of the game I did "have to" switch from daggers to a bow for the "Dragon Slayer" fight, mainly because my rogue had no Str so the bloody dragon kept tossing him around...
After that fight though I thought that maybe at least the final boss fight will be something of a challenge, there was a potential for it to be such at least. Now was I surprised when I finally got to said fight and it turned out to be one of the easiest fights in the whole game... partial blame goes to me, I suppose, for actually preparing for that fight (I got all the top notch equipment for me and the team all adorned with the best runes I could buy and order). At this point it is worth commending Bioware for excellent atmosphere of gloom and doom created by Orsino and all the team members prior to the actual fighting which made me, for a brief second but still, regret killing Anders earlier, him being the only healer I had.
There also was a slight continuity problem with Orsino's transformation. When I saw him transform I was all like "Oh my God! It's Amgarrak all over again!". For one, it was somewhat suggested in the DLC that it was a painful and long process to create such a golem and yet Orsino just cuts himself, mutters few words and he is all ready for action! The other thing, my warden, level 35 rogue, four specializations, top notch equipment, backed up but two dwarves and a golem (!) had a bloody hard time taking that thing down (I used a boatload of potions just to keep everyone alive)... and yet here comes Hawke, level 25 rogue, and takes the thing down almost single-handedly without going below 75% of health... [1] Ok, so it may not exactly be a continuity problem and it could be blamed on the fact that Orsino created that thing fast while the one in DA:O spent decades in Deep Roads powering up but still...
Aside from combat [2] though, DA2 is a pretty solid game. I played almost all Bioware games, starting with BG1, and am an all time fan of Fallout 1&2 but I'd still say that DA2 can hold it's own, it's not the same as the old games but it's a still very good cRPG.
If anything I would say that the fact that Bioware was/is trying to reconnect with it's roots is what prevents DA2/DA:O from being truly epic. Some people for example hate the whole dialog wheel thingie and say it prevents it from being a true RPG game. I won't entirely disagree but only because Bioware didn't push it quite far enough to exploit it's full potential. The idea behind it being to make dialog more interactive and more fluid, which is all good, but you kill said idea when you just let it linger there waiting for player input for hours. I think Alpha Protocol had the right idea for the dialog wheel. They put a timer on it so you needed to pick your responses before the guy you were talking to finished his sentence. That made the dialog flow almost seamlessly and the whole thing awesome.
Other thing to consider is the fact that dialogs in a BG form work very well if said dialogs are not voiced because then you just read what the guy has to say at your own pace and then read all the responses an pick the one that fits, all at your own pace. When the dialogs are voiced though the ability to stop and ponder responses for hours just kills the illusion of realism and/or involvement.
Anyway, just my two cents.
[1] Torment Hex + Mark of Death + Vendetta + Assassinate + Double Fangs + Backstab and dreaded golem was at 50% health...
[2] Some animations in combat are beyond ridiculous. I mean, a guy literally blows up, his limbs flying in random directions and the head shoots upwards as if attached to a rocket, because someone stabbed him in the back with a kitchen knife? Really? ...
For me the greatest let down in DA2 was... the combat. I'm perfectly aware that the game was aimed primarily at the consoles which demands certain simplifications and I can live with that. In fact I don't mind at all the fast paced combat but the speed is one thing and the difficulty is the other.
During the load screens you are constantly reminded that you can pause the game to adjust your party tactics and that you should always place your party members "tactically", warriors at choke points at what not. The whole time I played my only question was "sure, but why?". I usually play a rogue which may be a part of the problem (overpowered and what will you) but still I couldn't find one fight through out the whole game that would require something more than just "rush 'em and slash 'em" approach. Though I will admit that towards the end of the game I did "have to" switch from daggers to a bow for the "Dragon Slayer" fight, mainly because my rogue had no Str so the bloody dragon kept tossing him around...
After that fight though I thought that maybe at least the final boss fight will be something of a challenge, there was a potential for it to be such at least. Now was I surprised when I finally got to said fight and it turned out to be one of the easiest fights in the whole game... partial blame goes to me, I suppose, for actually preparing for that fight (I got all the top notch equipment for me and the team all adorned with the best runes I could buy and order). At this point it is worth commending Bioware for excellent atmosphere of gloom and doom created by Orsino and all the team members prior to the actual fighting which made me, for a brief second but still, regret killing Anders earlier, him being the only healer I had.
There also was a slight continuity problem with Orsino's transformation. When I saw him transform I was all like "Oh my God! It's Amgarrak all over again!". For one, it was somewhat suggested in the DLC that it was a painful and long process to create such a golem and yet Orsino just cuts himself, mutters few words and he is all ready for action! The other thing, my warden, level 35 rogue, four specializations, top notch equipment, backed up but two dwarves and a golem (!) had a bloody hard time taking that thing down (I used a boatload of potions just to keep everyone alive)... and yet here comes Hawke, level 25 rogue, and takes the thing down almost single-handedly without going below 75% of health... [1] Ok, so it may not exactly be a continuity problem and it could be blamed on the fact that Orsino created that thing fast while the one in DA:O spent decades in Deep Roads powering up but still...
Aside from combat [2] though, DA2 is a pretty solid game. I played almost all Bioware games, starting with BG1, and am an all time fan of Fallout 1&2 but I'd still say that DA2 can hold it's own, it's not the same as the old games but it's a still very good cRPG.
If anything I would say that the fact that Bioware was/is trying to reconnect with it's roots is what prevents DA2/DA:O from being truly epic. Some people for example hate the whole dialog wheel thingie and say it prevents it from being a true RPG game. I won't entirely disagree but only because Bioware didn't push it quite far enough to exploit it's full potential. The idea behind it being to make dialog more interactive and more fluid, which is all good, but you kill said idea when you just let it linger there waiting for player input for hours. I think Alpha Protocol had the right idea for the dialog wheel. They put a timer on it so you needed to pick your responses before the guy you were talking to finished his sentence. That made the dialog flow almost seamlessly and the whole thing awesome.
Other thing to consider is the fact that dialogs in a BG form work very well if said dialogs are not voiced because then you just read what the guy has to say at your own pace and then read all the responses an pick the one that fits, all at your own pace. When the dialogs are voiced though the ability to stop and ponder responses for hours just kills the illusion of realism and/or involvement.
Anyway, just my two cents.
[1] Torment Hex + Mark of Death + Vendetta + Assassinate + Double Fangs + Backstab and dreaded golem was at 50% health...
[2] Some animations in combat are beyond ridiculous. I mean, a guy literally blows up, his limbs flying in random directions and the head shoots upwards as if attached to a rocket, because someone stabbed him in the back with a kitchen knife? Really? ...
While Mass Effect 2's main plot certainly will not win any awards. The remainder of the game is some of their best work. I have my qualms be they lacking in character banter and additional depth and development of the romance subplots but from a narrative perspective the game is solid. The main plot is what served a hindrance and that was only due to minimal exposition on significant elements for the majority. The Reaperminator has no redemption.
Frankly, I find Baldur's Gate ridiculously overrated. Hell, it has reached Final Fantasy VII's level. There I said it, flame away.
Frankly, I find Baldur's Gate ridiculously overrated. Hell, it has reached Final Fantasy VII's level. There I said it, flame away.
I loved the first Dragon Age. I was really sad they took away the Origins part in the second one. Too me it added a lot of depth and story to an otherwise standard fantasy story. only played mass effect for a couple hours and i couldnt stand it. On one hand I agree with the OP, bioware has lost its edge but I think that its recoverable. Maybe someday theyl bring out Neverwinter Nights 3 (just hopefully not with 4 edition rules but whatever it would stil be good.)
(just hopefully not with 4 edition rules but whatever it would stil be good.)
Hey might be a minority taste mine(see the BAFTA people's award for COD)but even with frantic combat and stunning graphics DA2 is as classic cRPG as they can get,but that's me probably. As for DAO what really amazed me even from those so called professionist of the gaming world(even Yahtzee)is their "bitching" over the not so up to date graphics. Ok it's the future,we're not in the 90's and great games can't get away with shitty graphics but still the number one critic was the fact DAO had bad graphics.
As for older bioware titles people should actually replay them from time to time. I do replay from time to time all the Baldur's gate saga and while as a story it stood the time,gameplay wise is pretty bad. Once you know the meta-gaming you kill everything with 1 or 2 spells and you never have to issue commands to team members. So yeah people either try to sound smart by quoting older titles or they really live in a dream,which are always sweeter than reality.
And yeah I know how games we're back then,great since I had a great time(Might and Magic,Bard's Tale we're my first games I've played back as 1989),but today main western RPG studios have nothing to be ashamed off,Bioware,Obsidian,Bethesda and several smaller ones that make smaller jewels(see Mount and Blade). So really enjoy today these games since they will be the classics in 10 years.Too quote Total Biscuit "this is why we can't have good things".
As for older bioware titles people should actually replay them from time to time. I do replay from time to time all the Baldur's gate saga and while as a story it stood the time,gameplay wise is pretty bad. Once you know the meta-gaming you kill everything with 1 or 2 spells and you never have to issue commands to team members. So yeah people either try to sound smart by quoting older titles or they really live in a dream,which are always sweeter than reality.
And yeah I know how games we're back then,great since I had a great time(Might and Magic,Bard's Tale we're my first games I've played back as 1989
),but today main western RPG studios have nothing to be ashamed off,Bioware,Obsidian,Bethesda and several smaller ones that make smaller jewels(see Mount and Blade). So really enjoy today these games since they will be the classics in 10 years.Too quote Total Biscuit "this is why we can't have good things".
Sorry for the snippage and the typos but I can only do so much on this blasted iPhone.Sober Thal said:
Anyway, if you are actually giving the game a proper go I'll give you some proper advice: keep your party small to start with, there is a level 7 cap and the sooner you hit the caP the better. All experience you gain is divided among your party members and there is no adjustment in the experience available for how many party members you have. Simply put the smaller your party the quicker it will level up. Secondly do t worry about npcs not levelling up if they're not n your party, when an npc joins your party the start with roughly the same experiane as you, so if you're canny you can build a high (relatively) level team very quickly by just managing your team size.
Second, I'd say go for minsc and dynaheir as companions, you're a cleric (very poor choice in bg 1 I'm afraid, not many good spells, you get relegated to being a secondary character in your own party, the main fighter character and the main Mage will always be central) so with these two companions you can tick all the requirement boxes: Mage, warrior, cleric. Stick with just these three until you hit a good level then recruit a thief as somestuff can only be looted by a thief, plus they are a generally useful class.
As for roleplaying, I wasn't referring to dialogue trees or alignment, I was merely talking about immersing yourself in the game as you might with a book.
And as for the game itself, I'd say wait a couple of chapters before you make any judgments, pick up minsc and dynaheir and you'll have a good idea what the game is like by them, though of course there is much more content to come at that point.