Bioware's Problem With Endings

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Soviet Heavy

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No, stop it right there. This is not a ***** about Mass Effect 3 thread. This is an observation of a trend that has affected Bioware since Knights of the Old Republic. The end sequences of Bioware games are almost always of far lower quality than the rest of the game.

The only modern Bioware games I haven't played are Jade Empire and Neverwinter Nights, so somebody point out if they are an exception. Knights of the Old Republic has a massive buildup, and ends with a forty minute slog through an endless wave of Sith Troopers and Dark Jedi that don't let up for a second. The slow burn feel of the rest of the game is replaced by an extra long dungeon that brings the weaknesses of the KOTOR combat system to the forefront. While the final duel was satisfying, the rest of the ending after leaving the Unknown Planet felt rushed.

Mass Effect. Same deal as Knights of the Old Republic. The ending is devoted to the game's weakest aspects, a Mako drive and shooting. I admit that this ending was done better than KOTOR, because there was emphasis on speed and urgency for the mission, so the more rushed pace fit better. It doesn't stop the gameplay from sagging however.

Dragon Age. The very definition of a slow burn title, with focus on tactical combat and party management to deal with strategically placed foes. After the Landsmeet, the quality drops dramatically, with hits failing to register, awkward cutscene transitions, and the removal of strategy altogether. Instead of using your tactics you've developed over the game, Darkspawn now die in one or two hits, and swarm you with fifteen or more troops at a time, all of whom get killed with a single AOE spell. If they wanted you to feel unstoppable, they could have done it without removing the strategy entirely.

Mass Effect 2. Of all the endings, this one works the best. However, it still has certain problems. Pacing is one of them, as everything is whiz bang pow except it is going even faster than the base game itself. It also has the problem of introducing new concepts late in the game, with the falling platforms and team management. Mostly this ending succeeds due to the more combat focused nature of the game, but the new gameplay elements could have been better implemented or foreshadowed.

Dragon Age 2 again put players into a dungeon crawl, with the difference being that this was the same dungeon they'd traveled through thirty times already.

The universal problem is a feeling of rushed work. The endings are too abrupt. Dragon Age somewhat avoids this by having an epilogue, but the final battle is so riddled with bugs and sloppy work that it still applies. The games that have taken their time to craft the story are suddenly turned into high speed endings that try to cover too much too fast, and something gets lost in the translation.

Now, like I said, I haven't played Jade Empire or NWN, so I can't say if this applies there as well, but from what I hear of the ME3 ending, it has the same problem.
 

Kahunaburger

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I don't remember disliking the Jade Empire ending - everything does feel like it builds up appropriately. However, it definitely suffers from two issues:

A) Despite the introduction of a new mechanic (the end boss, like you, can use bullet time), the final fight showcases the game's combat problems. Jade Empire's main combat issue is stunlocking, and it's actually pretty trivial to stunlock the final boss to death.

B) The final choice at the end is pretty weak, and demonstrates the weakness of how the game implements its morality system. It's very much a save the puppy/kill the puppy sort of thing, and doesn't reflect how the morality system was initially conceived.
 

DoPo

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I'll be frank, I groaned when I saw the title but then I saw Soviet Heavy was the TC, so it got me curious. And rightly so - this is a different take on the things. And I agree. You missed out Neverwinter Nights - it's the same deal basically. I think only the Hordes of the Underdark didn't feel that rushed at the end.
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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Can't say I entirely agree.

Well, I do agree with regards to KotoR. The final dungeon was a chore and then they go and take your allies away for the final fight. If you built your character as anything other than a melee fighter (like I did) then you get boned in short order. Plus, the epilogue (the light side one at least) was cringe-inducingly corny.

I liked the end to ME1. Charging up the outside of the tower, using biotics to hurl geth into space all while literally in Sovereign's shadow was a good time. Granted, they nearly ruined it with the derpy final boss and - if you save the council - another hideously corny epilogue .

I hardly remember the final battle in DA:O, so you may well be right. However, I do remember the epilogue being excellent. You got to have a last chat with party members and various other characters, learning their plans for the immediate future. You got to state your own character's plans. Then there were text boxes describing the effects your choices had on the world. Closure supreme. Gee, if only ME3 hadNO no! Bad Zhukov! Shut up!

I really must disagree with ME2. The suicide mission was one of the best bits of the game. The new elements weren't exactly complex enough to throw anyone for a loop. Only flaw was the derpy looking final boss (again).
 

Soviet Heavy

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Zhukov said:
Can't say I entirely agree.

Well, I do agree with regards to KotoR. The final dungeon was a chore and then they go and take your allies away for the final fight. If you built your character as anything other than a melee fighter (like I did) then you get boned in short order. Plus, the epilogue (the light side one at least) was cringe-inducingly corny.

I liked the end to ME1. Charging up the outside of the tower, using biotics to hurl geth into space all while literally in Sovereign's shadow was a good time. Granted, they nearly ruined it with the derpy final boss and - if you save the council - another hideously corny epilogue .

I hardly remember the final battle in DA:O, so you may well be right. However, I do remember the epilogue being excellent. You got to have a last chat with party members and various other characters, learning their plans for the immediate future. You got to state your own character's plans. Then there were text boxes describing the effects your choices had on the world. Closure supreme. Gee, if only ME3 hadNO no! Bad Zhukov! Shut up!

I really must disagree with ME2. The suicide mission was one of the best bits of the game. The new elements weren't exactly complex enough to throw anyone for a loop. Only flaw was the derpy looking final boss (again).
I did say that Mass Effect 2 did it best, albeit with some rough patches around the corners. The biggest problem I have is the pacing. Bioware games have always been a "take your time" endeavor, so when the ending rolls around, the speed at which it moves is rather jarring.
 

Zhukov

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Soviet Heavy said:
Zhukov said:
I did say that Mass Effect 2 did it best, albeit with some rough patches around the corners. The biggest problem I have is the pacing. Bioware games have always been a "take your time" endeavor, so when the ending rolls around, the speed at which it moves is rather jarring.
Fair enough.

Then again, wouldn't a slow and relaxed climax be kind of, y'know... anti-climatic?
 

Soviet Heavy

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Zhukov said:
Soviet Heavy said:
Zhukov said:
I did say that Mass Effect 2 did it best, albeit with some rough patches around the corners. The biggest problem I have is the pacing. Bioware games have always been a "take your time" endeavor, so when the ending rolls around, the speed at which it moves is rather jarring.
Fair enough.

Then again, wouldn't a slow and relaxed climax be kind of, y'know... anti-climatic?
Not necessarily. Look at the Star Trek TNG Two parter Best of Both Worlds. Picard gets turned into a Borg at the end of part one, and is recaptured by the Enterprise halfway through Part 2. The Borg cube is still on its way to assimilate Earth, but they take their time, and draw out the conclusion in steps. The crew analyze Borg Picard, come up with a plan to counter the Borg, and find a way to save Picard and return him to human form across half the episode.

To make the comparison a little more clear, if Bioware wrote Best of Both Worlds, Picard would be rescued five minutes before the Borg cube exploded, with a thirty second epilogue.
 

Fappy

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I agree with all but ME1 I would say. The mako part near the end wasn't very long and you have a whole section after that where you climb up the Citadel Tower. I don't know, maybe I am biased because I loved that game so much >.>
 

Soviet Heavy

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Fappy said:
I agree with all but ME1 I would say. The mako part near the end wasn't very long and you have a whole section after that where you climb up the Citadel Tower. I don't know, maybe I am biased because I loved that game so much >.>
Don't get me wrong, I like Mass Effect as well, but I felt they could have done more with the ending, especially since it was in essence a repeat of the Knights of the Old Republic slogfest, right down to the space battle over a station that holds the key to en entire war (Citadel, Star Forge)
 

Fappy

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Soviet Heavy said:
Fappy said:
I agree with all but ME1 I would say. The mako part near the end wasn't very long and you have a whole section after that where you climb up the Citadel Tower. I don't know, maybe I am biased because I loved that game so much >.>
Don't get me wrong, I like Mass Effect as well, but I felt they could have done more with the ending, especially since it was in essence a repeat of the Knights of the Old Republic slogfest, right down to the space battle over a station that holds the key to en entire war (Citadel, Star Forge)
Well it was written by the same guy :p

I don't think the slogfest was nearly as bad in ME1 for two main reasons:
1. It was much shorter, biotics could literally oneshot everything with lift and singularity
2. The setting was far more interesting (walking up the tower for the first time was just a really cool concept)

But in general I agree with your assessment of how Bioware treats the end of its games. I know you touched on it briefly, but do you think these are just poor design choices or rushed endings?
 

Soviet Heavy

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Fappy said:
Soviet Heavy said:
Fappy said:
I agree with all but ME1 I would say. The mako part near the end wasn't very long and you have a whole section after that where you climb up the Citadel Tower. I don't know, maybe I am biased because I loved that game so much >.>
Don't get me wrong, I like Mass Effect as well, but I felt they could have done more with the ending, especially since it was in essence a repeat of the Knights of the Old Republic slogfest, right down to the space battle over a station that holds the key to en entire war (Citadel, Star Forge)
Well it was written by the same guy :p

I don't think the slogfest was nearly as bad in ME1 for two main reasons:
1. It was much shorter, biotics could literally oneshot everything with lift and singularity
2. The setting was far more interesting (walking up the tower for the first time was just a really cool concept)

But in general I agree with your assessment of how Bioware treats the end of its games. Do you think these are just poor design choices or rushed endings?
I think it depends. On one hand, the Dragon Age Origins ending shows all the signs of a rush job. Massive upswing in bugs, poorly edited cutscenes and transitions, and lackluster implementation of army elements.

On the other hand, Knights of the Old Republic had no fixed development time; Lucasarts gave Bioware as much time as they needed to finish the game, and it still ended with a fight in a copypasted environment with infinitely respawning enemies.
 

Fappy

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Soviet Heavy said:
Fappy said:
Soviet Heavy said:
Fappy said:
I agree with all but ME1 I would say. The mako part near the end wasn't very long and you have a whole section after that where you climb up the Citadel Tower. I don't know, maybe I am biased because I loved that game so much >.>
Don't get me wrong, I like Mass Effect as well, but I felt they could have done more with the ending, especially since it was in essence a repeat of the Knights of the Old Republic slogfest, right down to the space battle over a station that holds the key to en entire war (Citadel, Star Forge)
Well it was written by the same guy :p

I don't think the slogfest was nearly as bad in ME1 for two main reasons:
1. It was much shorter, biotics could literally oneshot everything with lift and singularity
2. The setting was far more interesting (walking up the tower for the first time was just a really cool concept)

But in general I agree with your assessment of how Bioware treats the end of its games. Do you think these are just poor design choices or rushed endings?
I think it depends. On one hand, the Dragon Age Origins ending shows all the signs of a rush job. Massive upswing in bugs, poorly edited cutscenes and transitions, and lackluster implementation of army elements.

On the other hand, Knights of the Old Republic had no fixed development time; Lucasarts gave Bioware as much time as they needed to finish the game, and it still ended with a fight in a copypasted environment with infinitely respawning enemies.
I want to punch whoever designed the Archdemon fight.

Kotor's poor final dungeon may have been a budget issue maybe? Reusing assets isn't always related to time constraints. It could also just be that they wanted you to feel like a mother fucking boss at the end and throw tons of guys at you... they just stretched it out far too long.

Although developed by Obsidian, Kotor II's ending has an almost identical feeling to it... well, it's also just plain worse in every conceivable way. But this is Obsidian we're talking about and everyone knows time is no object to them. Poor guys :(