Blizzad reveals new characters for Overwatch

[Mutant1988]

No, Wikipedia has no academic value. Where is the proper scientific research?

Try clicking those little numbers at the end of sentences. Those are references. You know, "Scientific research" as you put it. Or at least something concrete for you to examine and discredit based on the actual methodology presented.

I'll wait until you're done doing so.

I already looked. They just link to gaming press sites, YouTube videos, tumblr blogs and gender studies papers, none of which have any scientific value.

So what study do you have to disprove my hypothesis then? Also, do tell me in what way the methodology of any studies in those sources are flawed. You did look at studies cited, right and not just the title of the articles they were originally featured in? Or at least point out the most severe flaws of their actual argumentations, rather than the intent by which they present it.

http://www.criticalmediaproject.org/about/key-concepts/

http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1323&context=edissertations

As for determining the a concrete positive effect of inclusiveness efforts - How are you supposed to determine such a thing when efforts such as this one have barely just begun to happen?

 

[inmunitas]

What's with the strawman and fallacious accusations? All I asked was to see the data that backs up your claims, why is that so hard?

Speaking of backing up claims, you still haven't done that and seemed to have missed my post again. I'll quote it for you again so you don't have to go back and can just address it here.

You're putting in a Southerner and claiming they represent all of Britain, that is discrimination.

Could you point me to where I claimed that?

And then could you explain how it's discrimination rather than just saying it is?

Please answer the questions. It's beginning to look like you can't and are avoiding them deliberately because of that.

Because there is a bias, southerners have been more often represented in the media than the rest of the UK. It was only a few years ago that the BBC put in legislation to change that.

 

[Aeshi]

I'm not sure they could, really. Many depictions of centaurs in mythology feature the creature's human components appearing almost elven like.

I notice you conveniently "forgot" about the half-deer part. Show me ONE (just one!) other universe that has tried a half-deer centaur, let alone one where the other half is elven.

And how about the other heroes? Am I meant to believe it's just coincidence Valve came up with the "groundbreaking" idea of Alchemist being a tiny smart guy riding atop a big dumb brute all by themselves? That they "just stumbled" upon the idea for an Oriental-themed Brewer whose ultimate attack is to split into three copies of themself? What about Morphling, who is (again) a near-literal copy-paste(no changes or anything.)

 

[inmunitas]

Because there is a bias, southerners have been more often represented in the media than the rest of the UK. It was only a few years ago that the BBC put in legislation to change that.

Still haven't answered my questions. You wanted him to back up his, and asked "why is that so hard", yet here you are doing the exact same thing (that you were doing well before him too).

Answer my questions please. Don't answer a question I haven't asked and answer the questions I actually asked.

What was the question you were actually asking?

 

[Vigormortis]

I notice you conveniently "forgot" about the half-deer part. Show me ONE (just one!) other universe that has tried a half-deer centaur, let alone one where the other half is elven.

You're joking, right?

There are depictions of a half-human half-deer creature in Native American lore. There are ancient Greek variants that depict deer-like Centaurs or dryads. There's even the Huay Chivo from Mayan lore, though most depictions are more beast like than fair-haired human. They even pop up quite frequently in modern fiction and literature.

Blizzard didn't, by any stretch, come up with the idea of a a half-deer half-human creature.

And how about the other heroes? Am I meant to believe it's just coincidence Valve came up with the "groundbreaking" idea of Alchemist being a tiny smart guy riding atop a big dumb brute all by themselves? That they "just stumbled" upon the idea for an Oriental-themed Brewer whose ultimate attack is to split into three copies of themself? What about Morphling, who is (again) a near-literal copy-paste(no changes or anything.)

I'm not sure how many times I have to reiterate this, but let's try this again:

I am not defending Valve's use of those characters and designs.

All I've been doing, all along, is pointing out that Blizzard is just as guilty of copying other designs for their own world building. I'm sorry if your adoration of Blizzard blinds you to this fact or makes you so uncomfortable as to ignore the similarities, but I see it from both companies.

And with that, I think I'm done. I've no interest in having to repeat myself over the same points just because you want to attack a position I'm not taking. Maybe you can find someone in this thread who is defending Valve's use of the designs to argue with, but that person is not me.

Good day to you.

 

[inmunitas]

What was the question you were actually asking?

You're putting in a Southerner and claiming they represent all of Britain, that is discrimination.

Could you point me to where I claimed that?

And then could you explain how it's discrimination rather than just saying it is?

There you go. About the fourth time I've linked that.

Cockney is objectively British.

 

[Mutant1988]

What was the question you were actually asking?

You're putting in a Southerner and claiming they represent all of Britain, that is discrimination.

Could you point me to where I claimed that?

And then could you explain how it's discrimination rather than just saying it is?

There you go. About the fourth time I've linked that.

Cockney is objectively British.

Because it is, being an accent originating from London, the capital of the former British Empire.

You do know what objectively means, right?

Because there is a bias, southerners have been more often represented in the media than the rest of the UK. It was only a few years ago that the BBC put in legislation to change that.

And you support that legislation? If so, that's hilariously hypocritical of you.

It's not a matter of inclusiveness and representation when it applies to regional accents?

 

[Aeshi]

I'm not sure how many times I have to reiterate this, but let's try this again:

I am not defending Valve's use of those characters and designs.

Not directly prehaps, but you're not objecting to said usage either, so you must be ok with it at least to some extent.

All I've been doing, all along, is pointing out that Blizzard is just as guilty of copying other designs for their own world building.

So in other words, two wrongs make a right?

 

[inmunitas]

Because it is, being an accent originating from London, the capital of the former British Empire.

What do you mean former? It's just a little smaller.

And you support that legislation? If so, that's hilariously hypocritical of you.

How is it hypocritical?

 

[Mutant1988]

Because it is, being an accent originating from London, the capital of the former British Empire.

What do you mean former? It's just a little smaller.

And you support that legislation? If so, that's hilariously hypocritical of you.

How is it hypocritical?

That you care about the representation of regional accents in media and how they are viewed in the public perception but dismiss the inclusion of atypical (For games) body types as unnecessary and pointless with no tangible benefits whatsoever.

And no, there's no such thing as a British Empire when every state outside of the British Isles is entirely autonomous. The Commonwealth does not equal a British Empire. Canada, New Zealand, India, South Africa and Australia are autonomous, independent nations. What else is there, aside strategic naval ports in the pacific in otherwise independent regions?

The only claim England have left to imperialism is their governance of Ireland and Scotland. And I've heard that's super appreciated by everyone involved. Except not. Valid claim for "forced" inclusiveness there, isn't it?

Also, I'm just testing a theory here, so bear with me:

Everyone that expresses an opinion contrary to mine is an idiot and I don't have to provide any reasoning for why I feel it justified to express that opinion.

As long as I don't specify any particular user on this forum, that's a perfectly reasonable claim to make.

If you call me an idiot for making such a preposterous claim you will be moderated.

Because that makes perfect sense.

Is that... like... how it's always been done though? Only real difference this time is that you have the incompetent morons siding with those who want the change, instead of slandering them for being "self-entitled hyper-consumers".

Now we wait and see what happens. If I get warned again, that's a clear signal to stop caring about any meaningful discourse on this forum and stick solely to the "Old Games you remember playing but can't remember the name of." topic.

 

[inmunitas]

Because it is, being an accent originating from London, the capital of the former British Empire.

What do you mean former? It's just a little smaller.

And you support that legislation? If so, that's hilariously hypocritical of you.

How is it hypocritical?

That you care about the representation of regional accents in media and how they are viewed in the public perception but dismiss the inclusion of atypical (For games) body types as unnecessary and pointless with no tangible benefits whatsoever.

Your making another fallacious assertion. I dismissed it with the reasoning that had been given, as there are games that include variations in body type, yet you claim there isn't just because you haven't played them.

 

[Mutant1988]

Because it is, being an accent originating from London, the capital of the former British Empire.

What do you mean former? It's just a little smaller.

And you support that legislation? If so, that's hilariously hypocritical of you.

How is it hypocritical?

That you care about the representation of regional accents in media and how they are viewed in the public perception but dismiss the inclusion of atypical (For games) body types as unnecessary and pointless with no tangible benefits whatsoever.

Your making another fallacious assertion. I dismissed it with the reasoning that had been given, as there are games that include variations in body type, yet you claim there isn't just because you haven't played them.

And you are objecting to a game that explicitly wants to include more different body types, claiming that such a thing is unnecessary and pointless.

Except it seemingly isn't when it's about regional accents.

Feel free to cite which games you're talking about though. I'm always interested in expanding the range and variety of the media I partake in.

 

[inmunitas]

Because it is, being an accent originating from London, the capital of the former British Empire.

What do you mean former? It's just a little smaller.

And you support that legislation? If so, that's hilariously hypocritical of you.

How is it hypocritical?

That you care about the representation of regional accents in media and how they are viewed in the public perception but dismiss the inclusion of atypical (For games) body types as unnecessary and pointless with no tangible benefits whatsoever.

Your making another fallacious assertion. I dismissed it with the reasoning that had been given, as there are games that include variations in body type, yet you claim there isn't just because you haven't played them.

And you are objecting to a game that explicitly wants to include more different body types, claiming that such a thing is unnecessary and pointless.

Except it seemingly isn't when it's about regional accents.

Feel free to cite which games you're talking about though. I'm always interested in expanding the range and variety of the media I partake in.

Well playable near-realistic non-customisable characters from non-real world-based games with a body type similar to Zarya's, I personally know of Unreal Tournament 2004 that has Ambrosia, Reinha, Rylisa and Siren, and the female Ork character from World of Warcraft.

 

[Mutant1988]

Well playable near-realistic non-customisable characters from non-real world-based games with a body type similar to Zarya's, I personally know of Unreal Tournament 2004 that has Ambrosia, Reinha, Rylisa and Siren, and the female Ork character from World of Warcraft.

Okay, so one game from 11 years ago and a MMO with a character creator. Overwhelming representation indeed.

Not that I'm saying it has to be, but I don't find your claim that there is plenty of options of games where atypical body proportions are featured, that are ignored, that convincing.

I never claimed there isn't any either way. What I have claimed is that there is a demand for more and no negative effect of providing such a thing.

 

[Gengisgame]

Well playable near-realistic non-customisable characters from non-real world-based games with a body type similar to Zarya's, I personally know of Unreal Tournament 2004 that has Ambrosia, Reinha, Rylisa and Siren, and the female Ork character from World of Warcraft.

Okay, so one game from 11 years ago and a MMO with a character creator. Overwhelming representation indeed.

Not that I'm saying it has to be, but I don't find your claim that there is plenty of options of games where atypical body proportions are featured, that are ignored, that convincing.

I never claimed there isn't any either way. What I have claimed is that there is a demand for more and no negative effect of providing such a thing.

This is a look that is not in demand and the downside of providing such a thing is that it takes away room from one that is so yes there is a negative affect.

If the character gets used then there will be more characters like it, if not then it was all a lot of people whining for something they never actually wanted. That's hot it works, it will more than likely be the latter.

 

[inmunitas]

Okay, so one game from 11 years ago and a MMO with a character creator. Overwhelming representation indeed.

Not that I'm saying it has to be, but I don't find your claim that there is plenty of options of games where atypical body proportions are featured, that are ignored, that convincing.

I never claimed there isn't any either way. What I have claimed is that there is a demand for more and no negative effect of providing such a thing.

This is a look that is not in demand and the downside of providing such a thing is that it takes away room from one that is so yes there is a negative affect.

If the character gets used then there will be more characters like it, if not then it was all a lot of people whining for something they never actually wanted. That's hot it works, it will more than likely be the latter.

To be fair we don't actual know what, if anything, is needed for games to be "inclusive" because nobody has actually done any in-depth research into it. There are those whom just claim its "progressive" with no clue on what is actually required in order for progress to be made.

 

[Mutant1988]

Okay, so one game from 11 years ago and a MMO with a character creator. Overwhelming representation indeed.

Not that I'm saying it has to be, but I don't find your claim that there is plenty of options of games where atypical body proportions are featured, that are ignored, that convincing.

I never claimed there isn't any either way. What I have claimed is that there is a demand for more and no negative effect of providing such a thing.

This is a look that is not in demand and the downside of providing such a thing is that it takes away room from one that is so yes there is a negative affect.

If the character gets used then there will be more characters like it, if not then it was all a lot of people whining for something they never actually wanted. That's hot it works, it will more than likely be the latter.

To be fair we don't actual know what, if anything, is needed for games to be "inclusive" because nobody has actually done any in-depth research into it. There are those whom just claim its "progressive" with no clue on what is actually required in order for progress to be made.

I claim it's progressive to listen to requests. And yes, there has been studies to the effect that people appreciate having characters they can identify with in games. At least to the extent of sharing their own gender. I don't think all games need a 50/50 ratio of genders or other seemingly superficial traits.

But I think making games with the explicit purpose of adding as much diversity as you can is not in any way a pointless endeavour. We know there are people to appreciate it and time will tell if there's any lasting positive societal effects. I do believe that there is a definitive positive effect of making as many different games as possible. Being exposed to differences makes people more emphatic, understanding and considerate in their every day life. There's been countless studies supporting that claim, as well as ascertaining that our ability for empathy and understanding is based on what we are exposed to and our familiarity with differences influencing our ability to see likeness rather than differences in social interactions.

Almost any emphatic or social psychology concepts ties into the difficulties or advantages of a diverse environment.

My main defence of it all is rather simple - Why not try it? The only harm done is to those that had no rights to make creative demands anyway. If your position is based on the premise that others should NOT get what they want, because it COULD lead to less of what you want, then you need to reconsider why you hold that position.

There is a clear demand for diversity in entertainment. As well as a clear economical incentive to provide it:
http://variety.com/2015/film/news/ucla-report-audiences-seeking-more-diversity-in-films-tv-1201441464/

You can say that only applies to movies, but how you would reach such a conclusion I wouldn't even be able to begin to comprehend.

 

[Somekindofgold]

It also kind of annoys me that her being celebrated as an example of diversity is overshadowing the other character she was announced with.

Because it leads to laziness, and the last thing this industry is laziness. You wind up in the trap where a character's main, or sometimes only, characteristic is that they're 'x' or 'y'.


When you create a character to address 'We want different bodies' you've already failed, because when developing a character you shouldnt start with 'they're x'.

You seem a little self-contradictory here. McCree's more a stereotype than Zarya is(he's classic cowboy, she's at least genderflipped), but she's the sign of laziness?

How is 'We want a cowboy' better than 'We want different bodies'? Every character has to start somewhere.

I never said McCree was better than Zaryn, her overshadowing McCree is a separate little annoyance for me. All conversation of him is reduced to a little side note after people gushing or hating on Zaryn and it just reminds me of Marsha-Jan syndrome.

 

[inmunitas]

To be fair we don't actual know what, if anything, is needed for games to be "inclusive" because nobody has actually done any in-depth research into it. There are those whom just claim its "progressive" with no clue on what is actually required in order for progress to be made.

I claim it's progressive to listen to requests. And yes, there has been studies to the effect that people appreciate having characters they can identify with in games. At least to the extent of sharing their own gender. I don't think all games need a 50/50 ratio of genders or other seemingly superficial traits.

Almost any emphatic or social psychology concepts ties into the difficulties or advantages of a diverse environment.

Simulating excess body fat is a technical nightmare, unless you have a high-end gaming PC it's unlikely you're going to see much diversity in that regard without it ranging from the unrealistic to hilariously silly.

You can say that only applies to movies, but how you would reach such a conclusion I wouldn't even be able to begin to comprehend.

Movies/TV usually have people in them (actors), while video games just have virtual objects. That's the main reason why so called "violent" video games don't change people into mass murderers, a normally functioning brain understands the difference. You have to use your imagination to feel anything for virtual objects, you can pretend they are "real".

 

[theNater]

I never said McCree was better than Zaryn, her overshadowing McCree is a separate little annoyance for me. All conversation of him is reduced to a little side note after people gushing or hating on Zaryn and it just reminds me of Marsha-Jan syndrome.

Fair enough. I don't think there's a lot to say about McCree beyond "he's a cowboy; cowboys are cool". Similarly, I don't think there's much to say about Zarya than "she's a female bodybuilder; female bodybuilders are cool", and this talk around Zarya mostly doesn't seem to be about her anyway.

I suspect one could get similar talk "about" McCree if one started a thread claiming Blizzard doesn't really want a cowboy in their game, and is just pandering to the highly coveted cowboy-fan demographic in the laziest way possible. I'm not interested enough to try the experiment myself, but if you know of someone who does give it a shot, let me know. Seems like it'd be interesting to watch.