Well, yes. You mentioned and in-universe justification, and received information about in-universe reasons in turn. In addition, you received exposition about considerations external to the game as well (i.e. The End's information being a retcon).
What matters, rather, is how that information is used and understood to support what we're saying. That characters with similar conditions exist, but do not need to walk around mostly-naked, illustrates that it would be perfectly possible for Kojima to have Quiet in a similar state of dress. The in-universe explanation does not preclude that, does not make it impossible.
That there exist, in-universe, a few little discrepancies between the two situations, doesn't really serve to undo that point. I do not believe it is a coincidence that such discrepancies serve to get a sexy young woman with not much on putting her ass in the camera-- similarly, I do not believe it is a necessity of the plot when the repairman in "Lonely Housewife Needs Help XXX" has to take off his pants because he got an oil stain on them.
Eacaraxe said:
Because, in the end, this line of consideration -- while perfectly valid when employed responsibly -- is also reductive, and can be used to override authorial intent and reduce any female character to just the sexual aspects of characterization. Which, amazingly enough, that line of thought is also entirely subjective.
It is perfectly possible to criticise one aspect of a character without reducing them to that alone. Her role in the plot and her voice-acting and her what-have-you are not implicated in what I'm saying.
Now a professional cosplayer doing publicity and invited by Blizzard themselves fired straight at them by doing the exact removed pose on Blizzard's live Twitch.tv stream of the Heroes of the Storm Championships. The Twitch Chat goddamn exploded when she did it, and it was hilarious. And the best part?
A real person, in a costume so close to Tracer that she might as well BE Tracer herself...looks perfectly natural and shows the pose suits Tracer just fine.
Yeah.
Blizzard just got slapped on their own freaking Twitch.
So what? I still don't think the pose fits the character, and the design team still has every right to remove it if they share such an opinion. If this single cosplayer has a different view of the character, that's fine, she can do that, just like a million fan girls can insist Kirk and Spock are fucking each other. That doesn't mean the game must be changed to suit hr stance.
Hey well it's totally ok to remove something because a minority of people don't like it because this game is supposed to make everyone feel strong and heroic.Blizzard are in the right here, in fact id like to make another suggestion, if I may. I only feel strong and heroic while I've got my head shaved and am attending events for the national front party so if Blizzard could find it in their hearts to change Tracer just a bit more so I can get in on the heroism feeling I think that'd be just great.
Well, I mean, if I'm being honest, Lucio's the Overwatch character I find most attractive, and he does fit a lot of the "effeminate" markers. He even cocks his hips in a fairly feminine gesture, and his outfit kind of emphasises him in ways I think people would call feminine before he even starts moving. I mean, I say this speaking only for myself. Maybe one of the other characters gets a lot of love. It could be that 95% of the femalde population is really into dat Zangief.
But TBH, what I really want is what the guys get routinely. And that's to have characters that look cool or badass. This is not to say that I was being glib before, as the Lucio example may demonstrate. My primary interest when playing a game is usually playing a game. It's just that I'm not averse to some attractive guys at the same time.
The thing where it usually becomes an issue is that most women in games seem to fall intothe fanservice area. At least, prominent characters and the like.
Being honest, though, I'm not really sure this is a problem with Overwatch. Granted, I haven't watched a lot of animation--I haven't followed Overwatch closely and saw this mostly because I was wondering what the hubbub was about--but I definitely see female characters that would fill the niche I'm looking for. Zaryah looks like a boss, Mei and Tracer look cool (both in a sort of adorkable sense), and Pharah's at least decent. Again, this is animation notwithstanding--they could all do strip teases for all I know, but at least on a design level, I can pick out characters I like.
But I can't speak for other people. They may not be satisfied. This is where coexisting gets a little more tricky, and especially so in a market where mainstream games have a variety of sexy women and not necessarily a lot of sexy guys. Hell, it was only about a year ago the news hit they were toning down Mevis' attire in that Final Fantasy mobile game. Now, I think FF costumes are ridiculous, and pretty much none of them do it for me, but his outfit was kind of in line with the way a lot of women end up designed, and it made people uncomfortable and needed to be changed. It always seems to go the other way. When WoW redesigned their races, for example, you got an even larger dispiarity between orcs/trolls on a male/female basis. When I checked out those models, I was thinking "wow, wouldn't it be great if modern computers had the capacity to do both?"
Which brings me to the frank issue about Tracer and her pose. I'm not losing any sleep over it being removed. If Blizzard decided tomorrow to bring it back, I would lose no sleep either. When I saw the news article, I was sort of incredulous. Like, "that's it?"
Admittedly, the meta argument interests me more than the specific one. They keep it in? Fine. They take it out? Fine. I'm generally in favour of more options. At the same time, Blizzard seems to have agreed that this was inappropriate for their character, and as I don't really care much one way or another, I'm fine with their decision. Though one of her other poses still shows off her butt quite well. Forget which. So I'm not entirely sure this changes anything.
But back to that meta argument for a moment, there's still an issue of conflict. Say I want strong female characters and someone else wants sexy, and our values of the two words end up being incompatible. We essentially have to coexist in the same space, so how do we proceed? Even a handful of women who aren't eye candy seems like it's too large a concession to make and that doesn't even get into male characters.
Again, that doesn't necessarily apply here, but you made a comment as to what women wanted, and I think that touches upon it.
I also don't think there are many characters in gaming designed with women in mind, period. Whether male or female, power fantasy or just plain fantasy, I think the industry tends to design around a male ideal of what women like. That doesn't mean there are never attractive characters (Classic Dante comes to mind), just that I don't think anyone was thinking "we need to appeal to the female base" when the design process was happening.
And it's possible that I'm no longer coherent because it's almost 2 Am. Hopefully this was actually coherent outside of my head.
I don't know. There are plenty of games that aren't built around sex-appeal, so I don't see why there'd be a show-stopper with stronger female characters in those. To a certain extent people have to decide which sort of game they want to make/play, and that's how one would deal with it. Not that there can't be attractive characters in those games, but not every attractive is prancing around in a bikini.
Stronger female characters do seem to be a good thing, at least as a subset of strong characters - which seem lacking in general in the industry. It's lazy story-telling, 'Oh look, your knuckle dragging male-character-proxy is rescuing the helpless female-character-proxy. Stop me if you've heard this one before.' Male stereotypes map well onto that sort of trite violence, unfortunately.
I'm not sure men would have that much of an issue with it if it's presented from the start with stronger female characters. Like I don't recall too many men going 'Oh yeah, female Commander Sheppard, she should totally be in a bikini.' Most of the feedback I remember on that front was how much better her voice actor was than m-Shep, (which is certainly why I played that character.)
If they make a big song and dance about it, or backtrack something they've previously shown, then I can totally see people kicking off about it. But if they just include normally dressed women from the outset, treat it as a non-issue, I don't imagine it would be too dramatic. :/
Now a professional cosplayer doing publicity and invited by Blizzard themselves fired straight at them by doing the exact removed pose on Blizzard's live Twitch.tv stream of the Heroes of the Storm Championships. The Twitch Chat goddamn exploded when she did it, and it was hilarious. And the best part?
A real person, in a costume so close to Tracer that she might as well BE Tracer herself...looks perfectly natural and shows the pose suits Tracer just fine.
Yeah.
Blizzard just got slapped on their own freaking Twitch.
great pic. she really does look like a real tracer. its amazing how a company could listen to one complaint who is full of crap and actually uses her daughter as an excuse. how old is that daughter of her anyway? must be really young and still allows her to be look up on people who actually kill lots of people but showing some butt, oh my god, the horror. i know i would have pointed that out to her and pretty much gave her the finger what i think of her PC crap.
ohmahgah! They deleted tracer's ASS!... no wait, it's still there! They changed all the cameras so we can't see i-, no we can still see it. There won't be any porn of i-, wait prolly will be.
But Blackwidow doesn't have a neck line plunging like Doomsday falling from orbit!... Wait, it's still there. I wonder if she still has her inflatable butt? Anyone know? Seriously. Anyone remember that?
BUT THE SJWS WANT ALL T&A GONE!! Butt it's still there in the game minus one pose! IMPOSSIBLE!!! Surely they want to damage the game more?! I'm all triggered coz something happened that seems to benefit the SJWs more than me!!!!
Seriously, I think a lot of these complaints are coming from people thinking with the wrong head. Sure tracer doesn't flash her butt in pants that may as well be painted on because the Devs figured they could do better, but does it really destroy the game here? Do you really need it that badly?
Yeah, I get the sexual liberation angles, anti-censorship (Not that this is censorship) and other angles as much as people obsessed with ass exist, but a whole lot is tainted by the loud people who want to sexualize women, against SJWs no matter what, trolls., and generally the loud mobs that don't want anyone else ever pandered towards in any way shape or form.
Funny how the "Let the Devs do what they want!" crowd can change their tune when it works against what they want. I'm certainly not saying everyone is like that. I'm not against the decision, and I firmly feel like the devs should do what they want. Yeah, Tracer has a great booty, but if the Devs feel character development, and character integrity is more important, why argue? I mean a lot of the anti-SJW people demand women be well done if they're to be included in my experience (Yeah, like women will be written better than guys? There's going to be bad, and good writing no matter what) so here we are, the Devs trying to do that, and here we are, people crying foul because the Devs made a decision for character integrity.
Like a lot of things, the pose will be kept alive in some round shape or form. Modders will likely put it back in somehow.
I guess people really do need their monsters to rail against.
ohmahgah! They deleted tracer's ASS!... no wait, it's still there! They changed all the cameras so we can't see i-, no we can still see it. There won't be any porn of i-, wait prolly will be.
But Blackwidow doesn't have a neck line plunging like Doomsday falling from orbit!... Wait, it's still there. I wonder if she still has her inflatable butt? Anyone know? Seriously. Anyone remember that?
BUT THE SJWS WANT ALL T&A GONE!! Butt it's still there in the game minus one pose! IMPOSSIBLE!!! Surely they want to damage the game more?! I'm all triggered coz something happened that seems to benefit the SJWs more than me!!!!
Seriously, I think a lot of these complaints are coming from people thinking with the wrong head. Sure tracer doesn't flash her butt in pants that may as well be painted on because the Devs figured they could do better, but does it really destroy the game here? Do you really need it that badly?
Yeah, I get the sexual liberation angles, anti-censorship (Not that this is censorship) and other angles as much as people obsessed with ass exist, but a whole lot is tainted by the loud people who want to sexualize women, against SJWs no matter what, trolls., and generally the loud mobs that don't want anyone else ever pandered towards in any way shape or form.
Funny how the "Let the Devs do what they want!" crowd can change their tune when it works against what they want. I'm certainly not saying everyone is like that. I'm not against the decision, and I firmly feel like the devs should do what they want. Yeah, Tracer has a great booty, but if the Devs feel character development, and character integrity is more important, why argue? I mean a lot of the anti-SJW people demand women be well done if they're to be included in my experience (Yeah, like women will be written better than guys? There's going to be bad, and good writing no matter what) so here we are, the Devs trying to do that, and here we are, people crying foul because the Devs made a decision for character integrity.
Like a lot of things, the pose will be kept alive in some round shape or form. Modders will likely put it back in somehow.
I guess people really do need their monsters to rail against.
It wasn't that the dev changed something. It was the dumb ass virtue signalling he gave as the reason for the change. If they had quietly changed it maybe saying they didn't feel the pose was really in her character, NONE of this would have happened. As I've said before in this thread, the reason the bite back at this crap is this fierce at this point is because the gaming public can't trust the media to hold devs to task for any questionable behavior. This is the majority making its will known the only way it really can outside of a straight up boycott. So... you are absolutely missing the point of why this became a thing. People might have been disappointed in the removal of the pose, but that is not why there was an outrage. The outrage was over the reasons given for the change.
ohmahgah! They deleted tracer's ASS!... no wait, it's still there! They changed all the cameras so we can't see i-, no we can still see it. There won't be any porn of i-, wait prolly will be.
But Blackwidow doesn't have a neck line plunging like Doomsday falling from orbit!... Wait, it's still there. I wonder if she still has her inflatable butt? Anyone know? Seriously. Anyone remember that?
BUT THE SJWS WANT ALL T&A GONE!! Butt it's still there in the game minus one pose! IMPOSSIBLE!!! Surely they want to damage the game more?! I'm all triggered coz something happened that seems to benefit the SJWs more than me!!!!
Seriously, I think a lot of these complaints are coming from people thinking with the wrong head. Sure tracer doesn't flash her butt in pants that may as well be painted on because the Devs figured they could do better, but does it really destroy the game here? Do you really need it that badly?
Yeah, I get the sexual liberation angles, anti-censorship (Not that this is censorship) and other angles as much as people obsessed with ass exist, but a whole lot is tainted by the loud people who want to sexualize women, against SJWs no matter what, trolls., and generally the loud mobs that don't want anyone else ever pandered towards in any way shape or form.
Funny how the "Let the Devs do what they want!" crowd can change their tune when it works against what they want. I'm certainly not saying everyone is like that. I'm not against the decision, and I firmly feel like the devs should do what they want. Yeah, Tracer has a great booty, but if the Devs feel character development, and character integrity is more important, why argue? I mean a lot of the anti-SJW people demand women be well done if they're to be included in my experience (Yeah, like women will be written better than guys? There's going to be bad, and good writing no matter what) so here we are, the Devs trying to do that, and here we are, people crying foul because the Devs made a decision for character integrity.
Like a lot of things, the pose will be kept alive in some round shape or form. Modders will likely put it back in somehow.
I guess people really do need their monsters to rail against.
It wasn't that the dev changed something. It was the dumb ass virtue signalling he gave as the reason for the change. If they had quietly changed it maybe saying they didn't feel the pose was really in her character, NONE of this would have happened. As I've said before in this thread, the reason the bite back at this crap is this fierce at this point is because the gaming public can't trust the media to hold devs to task for any questionable behavior. This is the majority making its will known the only way it really can outside of a straight up boycott. So... you are absolutely missing the point of why this became a thing. People might have been disappointed in the removal of the pose, but that is not why there was an outrage. The outrage was over the reasons given for the change.
Doesn't make it any less stupid than when people flipped out over Ubisoft's, "making female characters is too much work" line. Basically a bunch of empty posturing over a PR blunder that Blizzard, like Ubisoft will proceed to ignore, and the "majority" will lose interest in the controversy in a couple weeks while the genuinely outraged will be incensed that most people were just in it to make jokes or have a laugh at Blizzard saying something stupid.
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